2008-03-12, 19:17 | Link #901 | |
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 37
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Oh, it is over?
Alright, checked. It is episode 6. And your page isn't working for me. I am in India right now though. Quote:
Hey Ark, I think I've got a good candidate for a 'best case' beam shot. I'm stuck using youtube, my methods aren't great, and the scene is screwy, but I thought I'd throw it out there so we can have an alternative to this crap about beams being slower than a fast ostrich. In episode 6 of the first season, Nanoha and Fate start beamspamming at each other between the buildings. Time: Fate fires 4 shots in just under 4 seconds, with 3 shots from Nanoha between them. Youtube = can't count frames, but since there are slight gaps between each beam that means the average duration of each beam's flight is under half a second. Assuming the animators aren't playing tricks, of course. Distance: Although max range is extremely hard to determine in this shot because the beams originate and terminate off-screen, there is a helpful building right in the center of the pan that all the beams pass behind. Determined the width and height of the screen at the building's depth by assuming that one window + interval to the next window = 1 story = 3 meters. Fate's final shot crosses the screen on its diagonal. If the shot were parallel to the plane of the screen and had crossed the face of the reference building, it would have had a visible length of ~70m. However, the shot is three times as wide when it exits the screen as when it enters, implying considerable movement towards the screen as well as across it, and it passes well behind the reference building, so the distance it visibly crosses must be greater than 70m. Add to this its unseen offscreen motion and a range exceeding 100m doesn't sound too unlikely- and this is from an attack fired by Fate, as a child, at one second intervals, while maneuvering. This also gives basic beam attacks a speed of at least 150m/s, which is at least faster than an arrow. This thing really isn't much help but since I bothered to make it I'll throw it out. Spoiler for lol wide picture:
I guess I'm late for that whole armor argument, but I'd always assumed the actual matter/pseudomatter of the barrier jacket was magically active and supporting an always-on omnidirectional barrier capable of stopping physical attacks, like the ones that protected Fate and Signum when they scored those glancing hits on each other at the beginning of their ep. 7 duel. I mean, if they can stop you from breathing nerve gas without covering your face I don't see why they can't stop you from eating a bullet, too.
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Last edited by Kikaifan; 2008-03-12 at 20:24. |
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2008-03-13, 00:28 | Link #902 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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http://arkhangelsk.987mb.com/analysis/transonic.html http://arkhangelsk.987mb.com Quote:
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2008-03-13, 11:40 | Link #903 |
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 37
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Yeah. I just slapped a bunch of screenshots together and drew the beam trajectories on so I could look at them all at once instead of replaying the scene over and over again.
I'm using the ability to filter out the gas as evidence that the barrier jacket includes a layer of invisible, always-on protection effective against matter. The assumption that it can deal with high-energy attacks as well is a product of the numerous instances in Nanoha in which characters appear to benefit from such an invisible defense.
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2008-03-13, 12:33 | Link #904 | |
Sleep beneath the flowers
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lording above all of humanity >;3
Age: 34
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I still say a barrier jacket could easily stop a bullet - if not a few dozen.
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2008-03-13, 12:59 | Link #905 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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And it is even worse than the diagram show because you missed something from not being able to go frame by frame. Nanoha's Emissions are better, but take that Fate Emission 1. Going frame by frame, you'll realize for a moment, it dips to a far more vertical angle, then goes from descent to ascent for a frame! Emission 5 is similar. What nice attack beams! Further, there is no sign of them doing this kind of combat once we switch to the close up. Combining all these absurdities together makes me conclude that those were probably not attack beams at all, but rather the manifestation of two powerful mages' aural emissions (and the aura of the reactivating Jewel Seed?) interacting with each other. By the way, can you tell me if you can actually access my page? Quote:
Remember, Rein's barrier jacket was penetrated by a bug (Ep7 SS), so much it reached skin (poor Rein, still feel sorry for her there). If you did the DVD frame by frame, it was torn before the CPA! Yes, I know Rein's is only a A+, but she also had a much smaller area to defend. Is this supposed to inspire in me confidence that a barrier jacket will stand up to bullets? I was poking fun at this abuse of inductive logic - ability to stop gases = ability to stop bullets? |
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2008-03-13, 13:03 | Link #906 | ||
Sleep beneath the flowers
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lording above all of humanity >;3
Age: 34
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A physical bullet =/= magical bug Quote:
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2008-03-13, 13:18 | Link #907 | ||
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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2008-03-13, 13:37 | Link #909 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
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You remember that but not Ranma? Geez. Nevermind.
Anyway, you'll have to explain. I can't form a connection here. And it would be best if you have some hint, at least, that such things as "aural emissions" like you're describing here exist in Nanoha. Beyond "that's what I think this is.". |
2008-03-13, 16:13 | Link #910 | ||||
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 37
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Though I'll admit that the huge movement Nanoha has to have made after firing the fourth (her second) beam in order to be anywhere near where the fifth (Fate's third) was aimed is a little ridiculous. Perhaps flash move was used. Quote:
A different sort of issue your explanation brings up is the question of why, if magic can accidentally create giant arcs of energy that move at least ten times faster than their beams, have mages not based their attack spells off that effect? I did do enough pausing to see that Fate's beams distort wildly, appearing to be arcs between two points rather than the flowing streams of energy the beams are usually depicted as. I can only explain this difference as a result of her using quickly-fired pseudoelectric magic, presumably without the multiple focusing rings that she often uses in A's and StrikerS. (Well, actually I'd explain it as the animators changing the look-and-feel of magical combat somewhat each season, but since I'm using your system right now I'll leave that aside) Quote:
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Now, in general I've favored the view that mages have extremely strong physical defenses for two reasons. One is the intuitive effect of watching them survive city-killer blasts- if a strong active defense can stop something that looks like a nuke, I start expecting their passive defenses to be able to handle small arms fire, and probably more, even with the caveat that 'same scale as a nuke' doesn't necessarily mean 'as hard to defend against with magic as a nuke'. The second, of course, is that scene where Fate displaces a large amount of reinforced concrete and emerges intact that you just spent so much time arguing about. Suffice to say that while I agree that it's possible she used some unseen active method to survive the impact, with a few rare exceptions like the scene we're discussing above Nanoha has always been a show that liked to take combat slow and show the viewer action and reaction at length so I don't think it's unreasonable to suspect, as I do, that she didn't.
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2008-03-14, 00:32 | Link #911 | ||||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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It will be kind of like deliberately using a 50m/s round in a rifle. It is not clear that those "giant arcs" of energy actually are in any way harmful. Even the very impressive looking glow of the Jewel Seed did remarkably little damage - RH and Bardiche were damaged, but even the two girls weren't visibly harmed, to say nothing of the surroundings. Fate only got burnt because she has to go touch the darn seed. Light does not equal harm. There are certainly some applications of MGLN magic that are very fast - for example, telepathy. It does not stand that we can thus turn the telepathic signals into attacks! Quote:
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You might compare it to the scene a little earlier when Arf was stated to be releasing a massive amount of magical energy over a wide area to excite the Jewel Seed. You'll notice that not only did she manage to knock out the electricity (or at least lighting) all over town (I've always said the Original was best at making things look l33t), but you also see those arcs in the distance (if you measured the speed of those arcs, you'll doubtlessly also find them very fast). But that's not a beam, not even a real attack (they want the magic power spread around a wide area, not concentrated into "beams"), and caused no damage to anything of import. Or maybe Ep9, when those Jewel Seeds were activated and were running amok. In addition to towering light and a storm, they also randomly had these blue emissions - one of which smacked Arf (but apparently didn't do more than trifling damage either). Further, the one great similarity of all these incidents is someone firing off her magic to excite a certain area. Then the emissions really get going. One can infer then, that the excitation energized the airborne mana to a higher energy state or otherwise made it easier to produce visible manifestations. Summing up the evidence with my points before, I feel it is safe to class them as emissions. Quote:
1) Bugs's windblast 2) Sein's hand (Erio's) (can't blame magic blades here...) 3) Low velocity (compared to bullets) swipes and glances of blades (not a lot of pressure there). 4) Completely penetrated by Type IVs (Type 1s and IIIs produce AMF, but there's no evidence of it from II and IV, and ruther, even a strong AMF has little visible effect against BJs - or we'll be enjoying some nice naked scenes). I certainly buy that Mid-tech could have made something that can block bullets and blades. But the BJ just doesn't seem to be it. The real pity is that it isn't that hard - the BJs just badly need a single, much neglected component - hard armor plate. Quote:
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2008-03-14, 00:49 | Link #912 |
Once and Current Subber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Purely devil's advocate here...
Is being penetrated by Sein's hand really germane to the discussion? We're talking about something that can penetrate practically anything. Penetrating stuff is what Sein does! If she can go through a mile of armor, I don't think saying "she can go through a Barrier Jacket" necessarily means that the Jacket is flimsy... |
2008-03-14, 02:35 | Link #914 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-03-14 at 02:54. |
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2008-03-14, 03:39 | Link #915 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
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In that case, I'm puzzled. What about an alternative explaination that they're better at aiming than they are at dodging? Since you are so convinved that they're flying into each other's shots, you must have discounted that for some reason already. What was it?
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2008-03-14, 05:16 | Link #916 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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As for them aiming, while Nanoha's emissions at least tend to go in one general direction, Fate's emissions zigzag (not visible in Kikaifan's picture) over 60 degrees from frame to frame. Crediting any kind of "aiming" or "control" to the process even if they are beams is ridiculous. But back to Kikaifan's picture. Let's start with Fate's path. Fate fires (1), then dives (2), right into Nanoha's beam. OK, that might just have been a bad choice. She then continues her dive, fires back (3). Now, she begins a slow, arcing turn (what enthusiastic dodging!), right into a beam (4). Despite this, she does not inverse (does she want to get hit again or what?), but continues her turn to fire back (5). But then, with no threat, she turns again to fire (6). But that monstrosity is nothing compared to poor Nanoha. Let's consider the light blue path first. Nanoha gets hit (1) and jinks up to fire back (2). Now she dives, in a much longer jink (why?), thus allowing Fate to target and hit her (3). She then jinks up briefly again to fire (4). One will think Nanoha has learned the folly of long jinks by now, but no, she zooms forward until she gets hit again (5), without taking a shot opportunity. She jinks up, a bit more this time (6) to fire back (why a long jink to shoot this time?), and then she jinks a long dive again, right into Fate's beam (7). Let's look at the Dark Blue line, an alternate path. Nanoha gets hit (1), flies backwards to return fire (2), jinks down in a very long run (3) and gets hit, zigs up (4) short to fire (nice, learning that short zigs = good), before dashing forward in a straight run to get hit (5). Then she goes the same as the blue path. If those are the paths they took, both have a death wish, Nanoha more so. It definitely does not have any sign of evasive intent. |
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2008-03-14, 07:03 | Link #917 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Question then: Since neither Nanoha nor Fate are in view during the sequence, can we be sure they actually got hit when you thought they did?
Kikaifan's path is only an estimate after all. It's possible those positions aren't the ones Nanoha and Fate were in when they were actually firing. What then? Anyways, they're nine and this was their first stint as mages. So what if their performance was less than stellar at this time? |
2008-03-14, 07:08 | Link #918 | ||||||
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 37
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1. The point of the beam moves across the screen in a straight line. 2. The portion of the beam immediately following distorts. 3. The beam 'straightens out' 4. Then fades, leaving behind little remnants. Could be explained by either the initial portion of the beam forming a path that the rest of the magic follows in better focus, or a sort of 'train wreck' effect caused by the compression of the middle part of the beam when the front hits something. I like the first better. At any rate, the fact that the beams all fade out and only leave remnants over their straight path suggests to me that the majority of the magic is moving in proper beam form. I'm pretty sure I've seen beams 'rear back' or distort before/while hitting something in other shots too, but I'll have to look later. Think it's there in Nanoha and Fate's beam-o-war in episode 5 and when they go up against the big mecha with the shield in the Garden of Time at the end. Quote:
Anyway, agreed that random magical discharges with limited effect against mages are common enough, but the consistent direction and timing of the beams in the scene still gives me the impression of weapons fire first. Other things: As to the assertion that the scene doesn't match the closeups of the combat, at the very least Nanoha has Raging Heart in shooting mode before and after, indicating she was or was trying to fight at some range. It's possible they might have been using those intermediate-power 'mini-beams' they create by charging up their basic attacks that show up occasionally in the first season and then disappear until Nanoha 'cools down' Teana in StrikerS. Quote:
The problem with using examples of BJ and their wearers taking damage from 'physical' attacks is that it's always against opponents using magic or magitech. There's pretty clear evidence that the 'magic sword' excuse is a valid one- Fate's barriers can displace hundreds of kilos of concrete in a high-speed collision, but they can't deflect Laevatein's blade (which, incidentally, gives off arcs of magic in Signum's pink when it hits them). Extending that to 'magic fists' (Arf gets magic arcs just from punching Zafira, YnS breaking Nanoha's shield) isn't hard. I don't know what to say about that windblast though. That's just ridiculous. Though StrikerS is the season where Hiryuu Issen got deflected by some tiny projectile that looked like nothing so much as one of Kirby's air-puff attacks.
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Last edited by Kikaifan; 2008-03-14 at 07:21. |
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2008-03-14, 08:25 | Link #919 |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Quick posting on the run:
On Rein's BJ being penetrated by the windblast, if you look at it more closely, Rein was grazed by the wings of the bug. Note how fast the wings are moving; we know that insect wings move very fast for them to gain their lift, much as how the hummingbird is a living helo because of the madly flapping wings. Considering that these insects seem somewhat harder physically than organic bugs, getting hit by the wings, even if just a graze, would be like getting hit with a lawn strimmer using a metal wire instead of plastic. Scaled for Rein and plot, of course. And probably not as bad as my above example, or walking into a helo's rotors... (remembers hearing about one of his Dad's friends, a Malaysian AF mechanic, who got up one day and walked right into a Sea King's tail rotor, or about the Marine Cobra pilot in Vietnam who landed at the foot of a hill, got out, ran uphil, and got hit in the head by the main rotors.) She wasn't hit by the windblast, but a direct impact. It was a graze, but it was just enough to hurt. Also, consider that these bugs are magical...
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2008-03-14, 09:41 | Link #920 | |||||||||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Appealing to literary analysis methods don't do you any good here. A detailed scene has priority then over a non-detailed one there too. Quote:
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SoDwise, it probably has to do with how the mages energy's interacted in the air. For example, it might be them arcing between two pillars of power. But frankly, it is really hard to say because we don't even see our targets. Quote:
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Look at this depressing frame sequence and weep : http://arkhangelsk.987mb.com/analysis/ss07depress.html Quote:
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