Final Fantasy XIII

[rg4619]

it seems to me that fandom becomes usually split between the two, most notably seen from games (niche or otherwise) that develop their own loyal following.

Yeah, it's merely a preference. Some players value the gameplay (and the game world, as in the case of FFXII, Elder Scrolls, Forgotten Realms, Divine Divinity, etc.) more, while others primarily care about story. Many old-school fans hate modern, mainstream JRPGs, and vice versa.

On these boards, I'm not surprised that many posters want to watch a flashy movie. After all, what's anime about?

Again, this is a similar experience to the one provided by the Elder Scrolls series of western RPGs, but on a smaller scope and of course with a JRPG approach to it.

Yeah, FFXII is definitely a Japanese RPG with western RPG ideals. You can tell that the developers spent all their time crafting the universe and game mechanics, while neglecting the detailed narrative typical of JRPGs.

Being a fan of both sub-genres, I was pleased with the combination.

No matter how good the system in RPG's. It's freaking boring.

That's because most developers strip down the system in favor of an accessible, story-driven experience. It's a nod to the casual gamer.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon

What I was trying to point out is that RPG gameplay sucks arse. Saying that FF style rpg's actually have some strategy might be true, but I use more strategy during FPS's.

What sets most RPG's for me is the epic factor of the games which is mostly dicided my the Story, Characters, etc.

Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon

Yes they are games first and foremost, but did you actually liked the grind? No matter how good the system in RPG's. It's freaking boring.

In a way, that's what I was getting at. "FF style" RPGs comprise just one kind of RPG. Games like Tales of..., Star Ocean and—to some degree—Grandia present different gameplay mechanics. Depending on what sequel we're talking about (since not all games are created equal), they're actually very fun to play.

Well, at least for me anyway. It's a combination of many things. Management, planning ahead, etc... Heck, I was not even talking about using strategy. Playing some SRPGs tend to rely on understanding the game's battle system most of the time. Of course, there are games that require all of these from the player all at the same time. Not to mention, luck.

Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon

The genre RPG never really relied on the gameplay.

A plot and story are significant of course. No one is denying that, but the history of RPGs began with the idea of collaborative gaming in mind. It started with "make believe", and then pen and paper.

[2H-Dragon]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Well, that's an opinion. I find FPSs not as entertaining as most people do, but that's also an opinion.

Ask that to the Elder Scrolls games. The main story was always secondary in those games, and the catch was a very different thing.

Well yeah I'm expressing my opnion. Likewise that you think that FFXII is good is your opinon.

Maybe I should have said JRPG's instead of RPG's in general. Though on a side note I never understood MMOfflineRPG concept. >_> Since why not the same thing online while socializing. Which equals to more fun most the time.

Originally Posted by kujoe

In a way, that's what I was getting at. "FF style" RPGs comprise just one kind of RPG. Games like Tales of..., Star Ocean and—to some degree—Grandia present different gameplay mechanics. Depending on what sequel we're talking about (since not all games are created equal), they're actually very fun to play.

Well, at least for me anyway. It's a combination of many things. Management, planning ahead, etc... Heck, I was not even talking about using strategy. Playing some SRPGs tend to rely on understanding the game's battle system most of the time. Of course, there are games that require all of these from the player all at the same time. Not to mention, luck.


A plot and story are significant of course. No one is denying that, but the history of RPGs began with the idea of collaborative gaming in mind. It started with "make believe", and then pen and paper.

Yup the tales of games can be "fun" to play, but they are still 2nd rate to real action games. The reason you can digest the repetiveness is the story.

Well using strategy is what makes the rpg battles somewhat fun. If isn't strategy in rpg batles that makes it fun. I don't know what does.

I don't know, but with the strat RPG's. Theres way more diffrent situations. Using various units in different postions in various formations and using the various skills and equip. Normal JRPG's tend to be thin as hell on the strategy.

I hope someone can tell what it is that makes the gameplay in RPG's fun?

[WanderingKnight]

Well yeah I'm expressing my opnion. Likewise that you think that FFXII is good is your opinon.

It's different, though. I'm not arguing that FFXII is good (though I definitely think it's a great game), I'm saying that people criticizing it are doing it for the wrong reasons. Of course, this has to do a lot with false expectations and the new breed of casual players the FF series has brought to the JRPG world, but that doesn't make their criticism of FFXII based solely on the lack of the same type of narrative as post-FFVII titles more valid.

[2H-Dragon]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

It's different, though. I'm not arguing that FFXII is good (though I definitely think it's a great game), I'm saying that people criticizing it are doing it for the wrong reasons. Of course, this has to do a lot with false expectations and the new breed of casual players the FF series has brought to the JRPG world, but that doesn't make their criticism of FFXII based solely on the lack of the same type of narrative as post-FFVII titles more valid.

How so? I think we should rate game with how much we enjoy them? Which makes sence to me. I know hell of a lot people that just quit the game halfway. Simply because there was nothing intresting enough going on to keep them playing. That is mostly brought by the fact that there isn't enough story/narration. If we ignore the story in games and base it on gameplay and if we can factor in all the other genre's. The gameplay sucks compared to strategy games or action games.

I'll ask it again. What is the fun part of the gameplay in FFXII?

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon

I hope someone can tell what it is that makes the gameplay in RPG's fun?

I thought the discussion here has provided a few answers..?

Besides the "different strokes for different folks" bit of course.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon

Kinda bad word usage on my part.

Well yeah the gameplay in FFXII was by no means a flaw. Next to the fact that the characters weren't idividual enough in terms of skills.

What I was trying to point out is that RPG gameplay sucks arse. Saying that FF style rpg's actually have some strategy might be true, but I use more strategy during FPS's.

What sets most RPG's for me is the epic factor of the games which is mostly dicided my the Story, Characters, etc.


Yes they are games first and foremost, but did you actually liked the grind? No matter how good the system in RPG's. It's freaking boring. I have never played a RPG (exluding strategy rpg's) where I was like woohooh time to do some leveling. The genre RPG never really relied on the gameplay. Hence you still have traditonal styled RPG's coming out on powerhouses like XBOX 360's and PS3's. While you could have made it way more action based or fun. The thing that keeps you going is the story. With games like DMC you have fun beating the enemies even if you don't care about the story, but FFXII sadly isn't that type of game.

An RPG with a bad story with good gameplay. Still becomes a bad game simply because it isn't fun to do.

And again i have to bring up the question "why are playing an RPG", if the only thing you care about is the story and find the gameplay boring, then why don't you just watch an anime... really i'm sure all the hours you've spent playing an RPG could have been used to watch a good anime that you have not seen yet (or re-watching old ones you haven't seen in a long time)... why not skip ALL of the "boring" gameplay and just watch the story... hell, maybe you can just download all of the cutscenes; for recent games i'm sure somebody has uploaded all of the cutscenes somewhere...

What Is it about an RPG that makes you want to play it more than watching a good anime? I for one do like the RPG style gameplay... it's rather a cross between action and strategy... it's too fast to give you alot of time to think, but at the same time slow enough so you can think a bit about your next move; though it's mostly really apparent during tougher battles.

And really, aside from FFXI or WoW which were games about grinding, i don't recall the last time i actually played an RPG where i needed to "grind"... as best as i can recall, everytime i met with a boss i was always strong enough to handle it; maybe the fight wasn't easy and it was a challenge, but i was able to beat it in the end. The only time i needed to grind was on somekind of optional sidequest for an item, or for the really powerful optional bosses...

Though maybe i go through the game slower than others people... for one thing i know that during FFXII i did as the hunts as they became available and that i was strong enough to complete... that ofcourse is gonna result in some extra fighting and leveling, so maybe i did grind but did not realize it because it all took place during a sidequest... another thing is i don't try to avoid fights, like trying to avoid enemies in FFXII or FFX

Why? Because I interact with the environment. It's fun running around, pressing X to talk to people, etc...

y'know that happens to be where FFXII probably does better than other FF's... i mean, they all got the talking to people and what-not, but FFXII does the best when it comes to environment. I mean, world travel in FFXII and XI was better than any world travel in previous FF's... the other games had the world map which was dull to look at... and FFX did give you world travel but it was horribly linear; you were literally running along a single path... with XI and XII however, each area was very wide open so you atleast got the illusion that you were not just traveling from A to B; overall that probably gave it the best feeling of exploration... And it gave you much nicer view of the world around you as compared to the overworld map

Frankly, the interactive environment of FF games and most other RPG was rather weak... i mean, the "interaction" was pretty much limited to just running around, looking, and talking to NPC's that never had anything interesting to say; kind of dull really... I mean, if you want story, watch an anime, if you want interactive environments, then you can do better than most FF games... the REAL interactive environment RPG's are games like Fable and the elder scrolls games... You can really interact with environment there, and hell your actions get actual reactions...

if you want both elements of story and interaction, then were rather at a lost since most RPG's go one way or another... The FF games tend to be weak in the interaction but strong with the story, while the more interactive games tend to have weak story... really, there is very little winning in the world of RPG's if those are the only to elements you like

Though grant it, "Longest Journey" for the PC comes to mind... i did really love that game... it's old but probably one of the best, and few examples of an "interactive story" that your gonna get...

When i play an RPG i look for ALL of the elements... i play it for Story, gameplay and the interaction. and i rather like the gameplay that is offered in most RPG's... A LOT of people do and that's why the gameplay still exists; Hell that turnbased style of gameplay was the very foundation that FF was originally built on... really, if no one liked the FF-style gameplay, the ALL RPG's would play more like action adventure games or like Longest Journey, and Myst, which are all interaction and no gameplay...

[2H-Dragon]

Originally Posted by kujoe

I thought the discussion here has provided a few answers..?

Besides the "different strokes for different folks" bit of course.

All I got after speed reading the last 4 pages. Is envoirment? If it's exploring you have a lot of games that have that aspect with the bonus that it has story or a better battle system, but maybe that's just me...

@slayerx: Because you feel more conected when you actually play the character. Doing the chores of fightings zillion of mobs. JRPG's tend to give epic massive hero stories with a proper ending. That and maybe the story is just that good. That and maybe because why be limited to one format when you can enjoy multiple formats(why go trough the trouble of watching medicore anime while you can play a game with a great story)? Why do you think people read and watch manga. Play ero-games and watch the anime? JRPG's tend to give epic massive hero stories with a proper ending.

Grind might be to strong of word. How about pointless battles with week mobs while walking from A to B. With a story and stuff you actually feel comitment to do so.

As you said you want all of the elements. FFXII clearly failed at a few. o_O Hence the criticism.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon

All I got after speed reading the last 4 pages. Is envoirment? If it's exploring you have a lot of games that have that aspect with the bonus that it has story or a better battle system, but maybe that's just me...

After all that, all you got was environment besides the fact that you also mention story, character interaction and gameplay systems?

Yes, I'm afraid it's just you. I mean, you took note of them yourself.

I like different kinds of games myself, but for me I guess there are other non-gaming reasons why I play certain kinds of games. I remember going to arcades and internet cafes back then because it was fun to play with people, but I also tend to enjoy a good single player RPG or action experience when I want to wind down and slack off.

[2H-Dragon]

Originally Posted by kujoe

After all that, all you got was environment besides the fact that you also mention story, character interaction and gameplay systems?

Yes, I'm afraid it's just you.

I like different kinds of games myself, but for me I guess there are other non-gaming reasons why I play certain kinds of games. I remember going to arcades and internet cafes back then because it was fun to play with people, but I also tend to enjoy a good single player RPG or action experience when I want to wind down and slack off.

Story...? Wasn't that it's weak point? Character interaction? You don't really change the characters in the world that much since the story is still linear. Ofcourse you can change the courses like get someone a girlfriend or give some one a career choice, but it isn't anything too deep. Gameplay yeah good on an rpg level, but if you factor in everything else it isn't all that hot. Even if you talk on a RPG level. The Western RPG's outshine this one by far.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon

Story...? Wasn't that it's weak point?

Wait, where did you get that? Are you still talking about FFXII?

Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon

Gameplay yeah good on an rpg level, but if you factor in everything else it isn't all that hot. Even if you talk on a RPG level. The Western RPG's outshine this one by far.

You're starting to be kind of confusing here. You're practically answering the question(s) yourself, all the while offering your opinions about them. No problem with that since that's your personal take on things. But your overall question sounds like "besides beating up enemies and doing lots of moves, what's so great about fighting games?"

I don't think I've been shouting "Western vs. JRPGs" either. In fact, if anything Western RPGs argue in favor of RPG gameplay—a specific kind.

We're just generally speaking here while citing a few examples here and there.

[Demongod86]

Well put it this way: would you rather have a story but no gameplay (anime) or lots of gameplay but no story?

What if I told you "The point of the game is to take your wireframe character from point A to point B to point C to point...to point Z through the wireframe polygonal world. You'll get some wireframe spells along the way"

In other words, all the gameplay completely devoid of environment/story/etc...

Sure FFXII gave you tons of places to explore, but why were you exploring them in the first place? Doesn't make much sense, does it? Half the monsters in that game were pointless anyway from a story's perspective, as they were harder than the final boss himself. We're not talking "here's a bonus monster". We're talking entire dungeons full of stuff harder than on the Bahamut, with some of the hunt bosses just being outright ridiculous compared to Vayne. And let's not even mention Yazmat (that I never did, but what, he had like 50,000,000 life?).

JRPGs are supposed to be immersion. You're supposed to get addicted to them to see what happens to the characters. FFXII was addicting for the absolute other reason. "Let's get to the next dungeon so I can hopefully uncover SOMETHING significant about the story". More or less, the game gives you the entire plot after you fight that fire unicorn in the sewers. "Vayne is the bad guy, he took over your town, get him." You learn almost NOTHING new along the way (fine those shadow figures gods whatever they were...who amounted to do nothing). Everything else just demonstrates how OMFG EVIL the judges and Vayne are. Okay? We knew that already.


Yes, I admit, FFXII's world was very expansive. However, we were exploring it almost aimlessly. A good RPG would have you go to every last corner of the game designers' creation as PART of the game, not as an optional GameFAQs uncovered "oh go here for a special goody!" when you might as well go beat the game in half the time. I believe Chrono Trigger did that very well. If you wanted the easiest time beating Lavos, you literally saw every last corner of the universe in all of the time periods. There was no "OMFG 999999999 HP BOSS KILL IT FOR BRAGGING RIGHTS!" nonsense. There was no "inane random corner of the world just cuz"

FFs aren't MMOs. I like to call them interactive novels. In the process of seeing the story from start to finish, it is my opinion that we should have to turn through every page.

[2H-Dragon]

Originally Posted by kujoe

Wait, where did you get that? Are you still talking about FFXII?


You're starting to be kind of confusing here. You're practically answering the question(s) yourself, all the while offering your opinions about them. No problem with that since that's your personal take on things. But your question sounds like "besides beating up enemies and doing lots of moves, what's so great about fighting games?"

I don't think I've been shouting "Western vs. JRPGs" either. In fact, if anything Western RPGs argue in favor of RPG gameplay—a specific kind.

We're just generally speaking here while citing a few examples here and there.

I sure as hell am not going to start why the story fails in so many ways.

Well with fighting games you actually need skill, reaction speed and strategy. Then feel good about it that you can do it. Unlike with JRPG's it's just the strategy aspect. You just need killing mobs that are easy to kill doesn't really give the same kind of satisfaction. The pace is high unlike JRPG's that tend to go slow as hell and waste your life and in those action games you need to kill a lot less. >_> The amount of mobs you fight in FFXII is insane. You know what real exploration is? Jumping on your horse and riding trough the world like Shadow of The collosus. In FFXII the flow gets stopped by the endless battles, slow battles, etc, etc.

On the western vs J Rpg thing. Yeah maybe it had the flavor and story and characters like FFX, but this disccusion is why people bash on FFXII. One of those reasons is it's been done better a shitload of times. Just because it's a first in FF doesn't make good.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon

I sure as hell am not going to start why the story fails in so many ways.

Well with fighting games you actually need skill, reaction speed and strategy. Then feel good about it that you can do it. Unlike with JRPG's it's just the strategy aspect. You just need killing mobs that are easy to kill doesn't really give the same kind of satisfaction. The pace is high unlike JRPG's that tend to go slow as hell and waste your life and in those action games you need to kill a lot less. >_> The amount of mobs you fight in FFXII is insane.

Seeing that you're referring to FFXII, I presume that you're indeed also referring to it with regard to story. Well, if that's the case, then we're on a different page. I'm not even specifically talking about FFXII. You asked what makes made RPGs enjoyable, and from reading along you took note of environment, story, characters, battle system and whatnot.

Well, those are your answers. General and common ones. Moreover, "skill" can be judged differently, and some JRPGs indeed don't really need much skill because they try to appeal to a more casual market, but as all games, they also respond to certain likes and different needs.

In the end, all you're saying is that these answers don't satisfy you in the same way that some people who don't like "genre x" won't be satisfied with the reasons why others like them. Seriously, going in depth as to why a certain genre appeals to some people can be just futile. For example, why do people like FPS games? You just shoot and strafe, and they're all space marines! ...So on and so forth.

[Sheba]

I am a pen and paper RPG veteran. Sure, I enjoyed games like Xenogears, but as pen and paper long time player, I can't help but hate the direction jRPGs has taken.

First, I feel like quoting this

Role-playing games are games in which players assume the roles of fictional characters and collaboratively create stories. Players determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to a system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, players can improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.

Are JRPG games? Yes. They have stories? Yes. Can we call them interactive? Hell no, whatever you do will always, sooner or later, be dictated by a script to push the designed plot. Can I influence the outcome of the game in a JRPG? Never. From a pure semantic (?) point of view, are JRPG deserving of the role-playing game label? No, no and no, especially not in this day and age where best-sellers seems to be victims of the cut-scenes dictatorship.

Look at what I underscored, then you'll understand why, in the eyes of many pen & paper RPG players, JRPGs will always be glorified visual novels with a combat system and more cut-scenes. Otoh, western classics like Planescape: Torment, Fallout series, or the elder scrolls series AND Deus Ex are the closest thing to what the developers have tried to emulate since 1974.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Role-playing games are games in which players assume the roles of fictional characters and collaboratively create stories. Players determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to a system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, players can improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.

How true! Take FFXI for example. No story? Rubbish. In the process of bringing my character from Level 1 to 75 (Islien, Red Mage, Bastok, Pandemonium server), the events of the game gradually inspired my character's backstory. That, in turn, influenced the way I melded his backstory with the FFXI's main plotline (yes, believe it or not, FFXI does indeed have a scripted story, and a pretty decent one at that, worthy of the FF pantheon).

Look, I have no idea where gamers get the idea that a role-playing game is a good medium for telling a scripted story. It is possibly one of the worst mediums for that purpose, due to the fractured, interactive nature of role-playing games. For anyone who think otherwise, point to me any video-game "story" that even comes close to anime in terms of depth and complexity of plot or characterisation, let alone compare them to movies or books.

What happens, rather, is that you play a game, under the constraints of its rules and mechanisms. Then, you use your imagination to "create" the story, after the fact. That is the sandbox approach to RPGs favoured by many Western developers, hence titles like Fable and Elder Scrolls.

Why should JRPGs be so different? Just because they're produced in Japan? Ultimately, they are still RPGs. Much as I enjoy the scope and grandeur of many FF games, after you've played enough of them, you realise how predictable many of them are. Square-Enix took some creative risks to expand the genre through FFXI and FFXII, and I am frustrated that fans are not acknowledging the effort they took to keep their flagship title fresh and interesting.

Instead, all I see is whining. "I hated it! Therefore it must suck!" Um no. Not necessarily. It sucks only in your opinion. You simply happened to dislike that flavour of chewing gum, that's all.

*Sigh* Seriously, can we simply move on, please? This is supposed to be the FFXIII thread, not the "pimp my favourite FF" thread.

[King Lycan]

Seems Like FFXIII will get released everywhere at the same time
Link
Here's a slice of news pie that we wouldn't mind gulping down with a tall glass of awesome. Everyone in the RPG business knows the rule: Japan gets the game about six months before any other area. Right? Maybe that won't be the case anymore. Square Enix's Yoichi Wada went on record recently, stating that they plan to start "making simultaneous releases the norm."

Does this include PS3-exclusive Final Fantasy XIII, or the multi-plat Last Remnant? It might. Due to the overwhelming strength of the gaming market outside of Japan, we're seeing a shift in game release ideology. Either this means the US and Europe will get the aforementioned games earlier than expected, or Japan will get them later than anticipated. Who knows -- maybe Square Enix really will start opening up development offices outside of Japan.

[WanderingKnight]

Does this include PS3-exclusive Final Fantasy XIII, or the multi-plat Last Remnant? It might. Due to the overwhelming strength of the gaming market outside of Japan, we're seeing a shift in game release ideology. Either this means the US and Europe will get the aforementioned games earlier than expected, or Japan will get them later than anticipated. Who knows -- maybe Square Enix really will start opening up development offices outside of Japan.

Goodbye to improved and bugfixed western releases, then. That's a serious advantage western gamers have over Japanese ones (look at Dirge of Cerberus, for instance) that's often overlooked.

[2H-Dragon]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Goodbye to improved and bugfixed western releases, then. That's a serious advantage western gamers have over Japanese ones (look at Dirge of Cerberus, for instance) that's often overlooked.

I agree the only reason the longer w8 in europe is somewhat bareble that we get the most fixed version. On the other hand most major titles don't really have that much problems. I really don't mind the move of getting a simultanious release. I was always wondering why they just didn't translate the scripts during the development process. Another nice plus is like with Lost Oddesy you have the option to turn on the Japanese audio. While Lost Odyssey did have a nice english VA I can imagine other games in the future might not.

Anywho I say yay if this happens.

[Demongod86]

Bugs? This is Final Fantasy. It's a single player game and so long as no bugs really fuck up the important storyline gameplay, then it's fine. Even better if it'll all be Japanese with subtitles.