Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[Xander]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I never said Zero Requiem was good for Lelouch. It certainly gave him satisfaction and went well with his "pride", but I believe he could have been a lot happier.

And so would many other people, including me.

My point, however, is it really shouldn't be suggested that Zero Requiem didn't have a bittersweet if not outright negative side...no matter what can be said about the results and the world they gave birth to, the fact remains that Lelouch's path was a painful one. If it wasn't, perhaps the way in which he left the stage wouldn't have worked so well on an emotional level in spite of whatever issues the epilogue didn't care to address.

And yet the outcome for the world we saw was a happy one, and that is what will probably stick with the majority of viewers.

Leaving aside the obvious fact none of us have the ability to carry out a scientific poll here...

...Lelouch's struggle to create "happiness" for others (mainly but not only for Nunnally) out of "evil" is one of the themes found throughout the entire show. You might consider the details of the plan to be unrealistic and a so-called "Ass Pull" but the idea is not beyond what could be reasonably deduced from the premise. The concept makes a lot of sense, even if the execution only partially does. You could "fix" the details in order to improve the audience's reaction and the concept would remain valid.

Say, make Emperor Lelouch try and honestly ally with the UFN first, leaving Zero Requiem as his "Plan B" after things go wrong, change the character alignments and groups, spend more time in the epilogue painting a credible picture of what would or wouldn't change as a result, actively redeem Ougi and the Black Knights, etc. Anything you could possibly think of.

The fact the oscillating execution quality of the series and its related issues prevents many viewers from fully appreciating the concepts involved is actually one of the most unfortunate and accurate criticisms that can be made about Code Geass as an anime production.

But, for the record, I'm not in the business of thinking that the majority is always right (or always wrong).

In the show? I don't remember that. In the Mutuality story? Sure, I never denied that.

Well...I'm referring to implications, which are obviously not limited to a single objective interpretation.

Therefore, this is all as "IMHO" as it can possibly be:

Basically, I would argue the story already had more than a few points of divergence and that missed opportunities for Lelouch's redemption showed up on a regular basis. The existence of many choices, particularly on his part, is repeatedly implied. This includes choices that are related to Zero Requiem but they also deal with Lelouch's fate as a whole.

On the one hand, you have Kallen's last attempt to help Lelouch (and clear up her own doubts), C.C.'s snarky commentary and questioning after Nunnally's reappearance, Nunnally's own discussion with Lelouch, etc.

And on the other, you have all the other times in the show that someone questions Lelouch or his actions, where he hesitates but eventually makes his own choice anyway. Or all the other situations where the possibility of a more constructive future seemed within Lelouch's grasp (his meeting with Euphemia in R1, with Suzaku in R2, Shirley's advice and her tragic attempt to help him...) if only he had made another choice (or, yes, if plot contrivances had let him).

As a side note, since we're speaking about choices so much...you also have the ironic fact that the success of Zero Requiem, for better and for worse, ultimately depends on humanity's choices...albeit within the context of the new status quo Lelouch has forced upon the world. Humanity could screw up or it might not. Or perhaps both, one after the other, in an endless loop.

However, it's said there that perhaps (or was it probably?) there would have been other options that did not involve Lelouch's death. Nothing was said about them being better for the world as a whole, or even less bloody.

No, but the possibility certainly wasn't dismissed either. It's a question without a definite answer.

[Nogitsune]

I actually agree with most of what you say, but I don't see how it contradicts anything I stated. My point was that Lelouch was no portrayed as a completely suicidal guy who had simply lost it and therefore went for a Very Stupid Plan, as some people here make it sound.

Originally Posted by Xander

My point, however, is it really shouldn't be suggested that Zero Requiem didn't have a bittersweet if not outright negative side...no matter what can be said about the results and the world they gave birth to, the fact remains that Lelouch's path was a painful one. If it wasn't, perhaps the way in which he left the stage wouldn't have worked so well on an emotional level in spite of whatever issues the epilogue didn't care to address.

I agree. Okouchi even said something to that effect.

...Lelouch's struggle to create "happiness" for others (mainly but not only for Nunnally) out of "evil" is one of the themes found throughout the entire show. You might consider the details of the plan to be unrealistic and a so-called "Ass Pull" but the idea is not beyond what could be reasonably deduced from the premise. The concept makes a lot of sense, even if the execution only partially does. You could "fix" the details in order to improve the audience's reaction and the concept would remain valid.

Preaching to the choir.

But, for the record, I'm not in the business of thinking that the majority is always right (or always wrong).

Me neither. However, not once is anything stated hat paints Zero Requiem as simply a miscalculation on Lelouch's part, a result of nothing but psychological issues.

Basically, I would argue the story already had more than a few points of divergence and that missed opportunities for Lelouch's redemption showed up on a regular basis. The existence of many choices, particularly on his part, is repeatedly implied. This includes choices that are related to Zero Requiem but they also deal with Lelouch's fate as a whole.

True, but this doesn't have much to do with what I was saying, I believe. Hm, and I think Okouchi pointed to Lelouch's pride and the "Only those willing to be shot are allowed to shoot" line that make Zero Requiem a "logical" outcome, though I'd have to look up the exact wording. Anyway, different things.

No, but the possibility certainly wasn't dismissed either. It's a question without a definite answer.

It wasn't dismissed, but it was never ever mentioned, not even in a random interview. Therefore, I consider it very, very unlikely that Zero Requiem itself was nothing but Lelouch's way of committing suicide in a flashy way regardless of the cost for the rest of the world. The creators would at the very least have made it a point to show us some alternatives he had in that case.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

My point was that Lelouch was no portrayed as a completely suicidal guy who had simply lost it and therefore went for a Very Stupid Plan, as some people here make it sound.

And my point is that, at the same time, it wasn't portrayed as an absolutely optimal solution that was carried out at no cost or which was thought up by a psychologically stable man. Zero Requiem is the product of a sympathetic yet tortured man's attempt to fix the world, so to speak, and even its most idealized moments wouldn't be possible without the incredibly depressing events preceding them.

What we say may overlap in certain areas, indeed, but it seems we're (or at least I am) worried about countering any and all unintended implications...including those not explicitly mentioned.

Me neither. However, not once is anything stated hat paints Zero Requiem as simply a miscalculation on Lelouch's part, a result of nothing but psychological issues.

Not entirely...but the presence of psychological issues speaks for itself, honestly, in a show as melodramatic as this one and in a character as internally conflicted as Lelouch. It's not much of a leap to say that Zero Requiem was never his original plan. The plan is Lelouch's response to his circumstances and those of the world...some of which he could have avoided, as per the choices and situations I've referenced.

Now, I do believe that calling it a "miscalculation" would be an explicit judgment of the plan (or, rather, it's effectiveness) on a level that the show doesn't really want to address. I don't think the series goes that far, but there are enough "what if" questions and moments up in the air for viewers like us to interpret. I've already provided my basic views on the matter.

True, but this doesn't have much to do with what I was saying, I believe. Hm, and I think Okouchi pointed to Lelouch's pride and the "Only those willing to be shot are allowed to shoot" line that make Zero Requiem a "logical" outcome, though I'd have to look up the exact wording. Anyway, different things.

Ah, but it does have to do with what I was saying as a response. Perhaps it wasn't clear enough.

My interpretation of the show places a lot of value on the existence of choices, including Zero Requiem, and the events of the story (plus the ideas and themes in it) don't shy away from presenting them to the viewer either...implicitly and explicitly. Inner conflicts and choices go hand in hand.

As for Okouchi's statement, I think you should keep in mind that was his reply to a question about the actual ending being a "Bad End" in light of the expectations of viewers. Let me quote the relevant paragraph here for the sake of clearing this up:

—–”Still, isn’t it possible that defeating the wise ruler Schneizel, the person who was supposed to have brought order to the world, might lead to some [viewers] interpreting it as a Bad End?”

Okouchi: “That’s true. There are probably a lot of people who think of it as a Bad End, a tragedy, considering the protagonist’s, Lelouch’s end as well. However, Lelouch says in the first episode: “Only those prepared to be shot are allowed to pull the trigger themselves.” If you were to think of that as his pride, then I think his getting shot (killed) in the end was a logical end. Of course, I understand that not all of the viewers will accept this ending. There were people who wanted a happier ending, after all.”

If I understand him correctly...Okouchi is saying that yes, he knows people are sad about the ending but, in a way, it was also logical for Lelouch to end up like that because of his pride and philosophy. In other words, he's not really talking about all of the choices Lelouch himself had in-universe...but rather, he's trying to briefly explain why that kind of ending is appropriate for the protagonist and, by extension, the writer. It's not like Okouchi is denying the illusion of free will -so to speak- that fictional characters are supposed to have as part of the storyline.

It wasn't dismissed, but it was never ever mentioned, not even in a random interview.

Let's also quote Mutuality itself for a minute here:

I have made my choice — I know I did not err in choosing Suzaku as the new Zero, the one to kill me.
"Suzaku. You can kill me, right?”
“Yes. With this sword, I will kill both of you and me at the same time.”
“Yes. Lelouch vi Britannia and Kururugi Suzaku will vanish from the world in the same moment. They cannot be allowed to exist.”
“... Lelouch, is there no other way?”

“None,” I say instantly.
There may be other options.
I may have chosen a different method if I were more like Schneizel ... but for me, this is the only way. My heart and my justice will not allow me to accept any other plan.

The initial question is about Lelouch's death, but his internal monologue quickly jumps to speaking about the "method" and the "plan" as such. Of which death is a key element, yes, but if you remove that from Zero Requiem...what do you have left? Something else.

Would that have been better? Nobody can say. At the very least, Lelouch recognizes that it's his emotions (heart) and values (justice) that make the difference, not the usefulness or the potential results. All that is unsaid, left up to speculation.

Therefore, I consider it very, very unlikely that Zero Requiem itself was nothing but Lelouch's way of committing suicide in a flashy way regardless of the cost for the rest of the world. The creators would at the very least have made it a point to show us some alternatives he had in that case.

Actually, that's not how I would describe it either...as the point of the final stretch -as rushed for time and compressed as it ended up being- wasn't just to make Lelouch commit suicide but also to demonstrate that he accomplished his goal. In that context, I would have to say that showing him struggling with other alternatives wasn't a priority ("what, didn't the audience already get to see Lelouch doing that lots of times before?"). We still saw moments of tension here and there, but ending the story was the main objective.

In other words...the plan has in-universe merits, yes, but it's still something Lelouch chose to do.

If that's an issue, I would include it as one more production compromise reached along the way.

[azul120]

Again though, "the ones prepared to be shot..." thing as justification for Lelouch's death is shot down by the survival of various characters. Though I guess it would come down to Lelouch's masochism.

[Hsadman]

Am I the only one who wasn't shocked by Zero Requiem? I mean, its easy to see how people are surprised, and I do agree it was quite hasty. But, honestly, for me it was expected.

In my opinion, Lelouch started to drive down crazy lane ever since Euphie's death. Then with all the agony and despair he went through, he simply dived into 'the point of no return', in a fatal attempt to 'fix' the world.

Again, I do agree that Zero Requiem was hasty. I would of recognized, or perhaps liked it if the writers elongated the plot leading up to the event.

[Arbitres]

^

And I would have liked it if the creators elongated on the point of ZR, period. Resolving the issue with a huge bloodbath, have all hate being pointed to just one single individual, and have said individual be killed and have all hate 'vanish' from the world is just a tad... Uhh... Unrealistic. You see it goes beyond 'hasty'.

R2 needs to be redone, reworked, and rewritten so it would be less of a train wreck.


Zero Requiem was a good plan via it's ideal, as well as what it could bring. But the actions that were used to make it a possibility were contradictory to it's cause. As a result, Zero Requiem is little more then glorifying Lelouch.


Prettying up Zero Requiem, using soft words to explain what it did in order to be achieved as well as how hard it failed and still succeeded unrealistically, only makes it uglier.

Was I surprised? Yes. Was I disappointed after thinking about it? Yes. Do I think Zero Requiem was a bad plan? No. Zero Requiem just had the wrong person planning it.

[Hsadman]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

^

Spoiler for text:

And I would have liked it if the creators elongated on the point of ZR, period. Resolving the issue with a huge bloodbath, have all hate being pointed to just one single individual, and have said individual be killed and have all hate 'vanish' from the world is just a tad... Uhh... Unrealistic. You see it goes beyond 'hasty'.

R2 needs to be redone, reworked, and rewritten so it would be less of a train wreck.


Zero Requiem was a good plan via it's ideal, as well as what it could bring. But the actions that were used to make it a possibility were contradictory to it's cause. As a result, Zero Requiem is little more then glorifying Lelouch.


Prettying up Zero Requiem, using soft words to explain what it did in order to be achieved as well as how hard it failed and still succeeded unrealistically, only makes it uglier.

Was I surprised? Yes. Was I disappointed after thinking about it? Yes. Do I think Zero Requiem was a bad plan? No. Zero Requiem just had the wrong person planning it

.

I know what you mean,

One of the things that kept me clinging to the show was its realism (In its consequence)

So the fact that one person dying suddenly creates a utopia is quite... ridiculous. People are wired to hate one another, if one issue is solved a new one appears instantly.

And yes, R2 along with its ending needs to be re-done for it to be believable. Although elongation should have a limit too.

[Cephei Mordred]

Just as an experiment...let us rehabilitate Viletta.

I'm making a character for a game I run for a friend who will basically be a more sympathetic but still smug snake backstabber Viletta type, and deconstructing/reconstructing Viletta might help.

To start with, I would look to some of the more positive portrayals of her.

There was the time when she was amnesiac, she was as decent a person as could be.

And then in Shirley's dream or whatever, which I suppose shouldn't be taken seriously, she brought up the point of having to deal with seeing the girl who shot her every day. That's certainly understandable.

Next, there was when she actually got a little upset when Rolo Shot The Dog when said 'dog' overheard them talking about Geass. Even if it was probably mostly a pragmatic "don't kill off your own men without good reason" thing, it shows that she does have some sense.

And then of course, there was her trying to save Oghi.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

^

And I would have liked it if the creators elongated on the point of ZR, period. Resolving the issue with a huge bloodbath, have all hate being pointed to just one single individual, and have said individual be killed and have all hate 'vanish' from the world is just a tad... Uhh... Unrealistic. You see it goes beyond 'hasty'.

R2 needs to be redone, reworked, and rewritten so it would be less of a train wreck.


Zero Requiem was a good plan via it's ideal, as well as what it could bring. But the actions that were used to make it a possibility were contradictory to it's cause. As a result, Zero Requiem is little more then glorifying Lelouch.


Prettying up Zero Requiem, using soft words to explain what it did in order to be achieved as well as how hard it failed and still succeeded unrealistically, only makes it uglier.

Was I surprised? Yes. Was I disappointed after thinking about it? Yes. Do I think Zero Requiem was a bad plan? No. Zero Requiem just had the wrong person planning it.

Agreed.

I think the order of Big Bads at the end was wrong also.

Lelouch should have faced Schneizel first, then Charles.
After all, that would be like Froto defeating Sauron before the Ents defeat Saruman in LOTR (Lord of the Rings).

ZR is as you say, a foolish concept.
It's like saying Hitler's death created world peace.
It didn't, the cold war started right after World War II.
I know this is fiction, but Okouchi wrote CG for the viewer to take seriously it concepts and themes.
The problem is that the whole "Jesus-Effect" he was looking for in Lelouch is as much a failure as it was for Neo in the Matrix movies.

While Zero Requiem would have made a fine vehicle for a "Fall of the House of Usher" plotline, it fails to provide even a sensible "World Peace" ending since according to episode 8 of S1, 70% of the worlds power sourse (Sakuradite) comes from Japan's mount Fuji mines.
Lelouch blew those up in the ZR episodes.
Then add to that the sheer number of people he supposedly killed to make himself the demon emperor and you have the seeds of worldwide revolution.
Realistically what the ZR does would have started another world war as soon as the nations got back on their feet.
The UFN would then be little more than the equivalent of the League of Nations and the interim period of shaky peace between WWI and WWII would be repeated in the Code Geass world.

Personally, I think Okouchi and Taniquichi were trying to find a way to get the main Japanese character (Suzaku) into the Zero suit (to be the main hero) and thus Lelouch had to die somehow.

This is why I see Suzaku as the Marty Stu of the whole damn series.
He's lost the love of his life, he's angsty, his invincible, the world thinks he's dead, and he hides behind a superhero mask.
Of all the characters to replace Lelouch as Zero, Suzaku seems the least likely to be able to do the job.

Overall I agree Arbitres that R2 needs to be redone.
I don't care if Lelouch (or all the characters for that matter) die at the end, if it's going to be a tragedy then make it a damn tragedy.
The way it is now the ending is an Epic Fail from a writer's standpoint.
There is an actual unwritten formula for writing Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror.
While those unwritten rules can be bent, twisted, and sometimes broken, few writers are able to do so successfully.
Unfortunately for Code Geass, they missed the mark by just a hair, and could have wrapped up the show with the death of Charles leaving the future uncertain would have been better than trying to force Lelouch Christ Superstar on us.

Anyway, Code Geass is excellent even without the ZR.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

I think the order of Big Bads at the end was wrong also.

Lelouch should have faced Schneizel first, then Charles.
After all, that would be like Froto defeating Sauron before the Ents defeat Saruman in LOTR (Lord of the Rings).

And on that note, another thing that was weird about the last few episodes of R2 was that, by Turn 21, Lelouch had already completed his character arc.

The last few episodes were just the writers throwing the audience for one last loop and Lelouch fighting his brother, which was only semi-dramatic. And of course Lelouch's death. It was all very drawn out.

[Hsadman]

I wonder if a cult group was started after Lelouch died. That worshiped him or praised him for 'his efforts'. Seems likely to me *scratches chin*

And as another note, I find it insanitary to believe that every single person in the world hated Lelouch. There had to be some misfit, or a group. Who could, make a cult as said, or rise to create terror once more. Or maybe we just see things this way because there isn't such a thing, and probably never will be, as world peace, in our world.

We have to keep in our heads that Code Geass is a fiction. A great anime that had a abrupt and misguiding ending...but a fiction.

[Xander]

^

That would be a problem if Zero Requiem's peace was supposed to be permanent...which, going by a couple of statements made along the way (call them "disclaimers" inserted by the writer if you want to ) isn't necessarily the case. Still, the fact that this is all just fiction remains absolute true.

I guess these issues have been discussed a million times already but...let's add to the count.

Originally Posted by Arbitres

And I would have liked it if the creators elongated on the point of ZR, period. Resolving the issue with a huge bloodbath, have all hate being pointed to just one single individual, and have said individual be killed and have all hate 'vanish' from the world is just a tad... Uhh... Unrealistic. You see it goes beyond 'hasty'.

The question, however, is whether or not being unrealistic is really that much of an objective problem in an operatic and over-the-top series. In retrospect, I don't think so. It's a matter of suspension of disbelief and, to be honest, by that point in the show realism and believability had stopped being a concern long ago. You could even argue there was enough build-up and precedent for that.

This means there are two options: either you dismiss the whole thing as utterly ridiculous or, as an alternative, your suspension of disbelief rises past that point. Which doesn't mean, like some pretend, not thinking about the show. It just means focusing on other aspects, such as themes and ideas, rather than expecting the series to be realistic. There are still problems, since bad execution hurts those areas as well, but also more merits than those usually recognized.

So, for me, it can be said Zero Requiem is ridiculous and unrealistic in execution but not senseless or inconsistent in theme.

Even in terms of realism alone, however, there is a lot of room for debate.

GundamFan0083's description of what should have happened after ZR seems far too historically deterministic for my taste. It depends on information never provided by the show and, what's more, real history is full of similar situations that did not lead to equivalent outcomes. In other words, there is not enough basis for an objective prediction unless you make assumptions...that can easily be countered by their opposites as long as the show doesn't tell us otherwise.

Even real historians and political analysts disagree and -surprise- can be wrong about what happens in the world.

R2 needs to be redone, reworked, and rewritten so it would be less of a train wreck.

Most of us would agree that many specific events need to be reworked and rewritten. That's fair enough.

But I don't think it means throwing everything out in the process. I'd probably change a lot less than you would.

Zero Requiem was a good plan via it's ideal, as well as what it could bring. But the actions that were used to make it a possibility were contradictory to it's cause. As a result, Zero Requiem is little more then glorifying Lelouch.

Glorifying and condemning him, really, is how I'd describe it. Besides, taking "actions that were contradictory to the cause" pretty much describes the bulk of Lelouch's life story. He fought Britannia by himself using "evil" for the sake of a sister who didn't want him to leave her side. That's not just contradictory, it's ironic, which even makes it a parallel.

Prettying up Zero Requiem, using soft words to explain what it did in order to be achieved as well as how hard it failed and still succeeded unrealistically, only makes it uglier.

That's where we disagree. I think an unrealistic plan can, in fact, be properly rehabilitated through the use of better explanations and by making it less rushed. Rather than erasing its concept, I would heavily modify its presentation (including what happens "before" and "after" ZR).

Originally Posted by Hsadman

One of the things that kept me clinging to the show was its realism (In its consequence)

So the fact that one person dying suddenly creates a utopia is quite... ridiculous. People are wired to hate one another, if one issue is solved a new one appears instantly.

Strictly speaking, realism and believability were never a huge concern for Code Geass. Whatever else can be said about its execution, I don't believe fiction needs to be realistic.

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

And on that note, another thing that was weird about the last few episodes of R2 was that, by Turn 21, Lelouch had already completed his character arc.

Yes and no. One huge difference, and that's also where the Lord of the Rings comparison falls short, is the fact Lelouch still had too many skeletons in his closet. Stopping Charles and Ragnarok didn't free him from his guilt or his worries, but quite the opposite.

For someone prepared to disappear along with his father, Lelouch was actually spared. You could even say he was aimless. What's more, Suzaku reminded him that he was Euphemia's murderer. And, yes, he still had to deal with Schneizel as Charles himself stated. If the staff had wanted, they could have developed that into a different ending and made this irrelevant...but they didn't.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Xander

Yes and no. One huge difference, and that's also where the Lord of the Rings comparison falls short, is the fact Lelouch still had too many skeletons in his closet. Stopping Charles and Ragnarok didn't free him from his guilt or his worries, but quite the opposite.

For someone prepared to disappear along with his father, Lelouch was actually spared. You could even say he was aimless. What's more, Suzaku reminded him that he was Euphemia's murderer. And, yes, he still had to deal with Schneizel as Charles himself stated. If the staff had wanted, they could have developed that into a different ending and made this irrelevant...but they didn't.

As you said, the staff could've handled it differently and they really should have since it was very sloppy. The last four episodes were just resolution and it really shouldn't have been that long.

Also, fiction can be unrealistic, but it still has to make sense. ZR, to be perfectly honest, didn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

As you said, the staff could've handled it differently and they really should have since it was very sloppy. The last four episodes were just resolution and it really shouldn't have been that long.

Also, fiction can be unrealistic, but it still has to make sense. ZR, to be perfectly honest, didn't make a whole lot of sense.

On the one hand, I don't disagree with the first part of your statement. I've always considered it rushed and sloppy.

On the other, I feel ZR makes at least some sense in certain respects, which is more than what's usually said about it.

In other words, if I had to decide...I would definitely rewrite many details but not necessarily change the entire idea of ZR.

If I did, it would be mostly in order to prevent this debate, not because I find the concept to be irreconcilable with the show.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Xander

On the other, I feel ZR makes at least some sense in certain respects, which is more than what's usually said about it.

ZR is an idea that sounds good on paper (sort of) but would never work in real life.

If I did, it would be mostly in order to prevent this debate, not because I find the concept to be irreconcilable with the show.

Well said.

[GundamFan0083]

A thought has crossed my mind reading over this discussion about the ZR and having just finished the 4th issue of Renya of the Dark.

Spoiler for the manga is making things more confusing:

CC mentions that Geass has the power of Resurrection in issue 2 (when Renya fails to acquire Geass). Since Taniguichi is writing this manga it is official and he's definitely Word of God, so could that mean that Lelouch knows he'll get resurrected and thus killed himself off with that knowledge?

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Xander

For someone prepared to disappear along with his father, Lelouch was actually spared. You could even say he was aimless. What's more, Suzaku reminded him that he was Euphemia's murderer. And, yes, he still had to deal with Schneizel as Charles himself stated. If the staff had wanted, they could have developed that into a different ending and made this irrelevant...but they didn't.

But Suzaku practically knew the Euphie incident was accidental.

Regarding the Zero Requiem, it happened because the writers chose to have Lelouch Driven to Suicide, and followed in the footsteps of the aforementioned first attempt at that, the plan to seal himself and his father off from the world.

Zero Requiem IMO neither glorified nor demonized Lelouch so much as it made him pitiable on a whole new level.

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

A thought has crossed my mind reading over this discussion about the ZR and having just finished the 4th issue of Renya of the Dark.

Spoiler for the manga is making things more confusing:

CC mentions that Geass has the power of Resurrection in issue 2 (when Renya fails to acquire Geass). Since Taniguichi is writing this manga it is official and he's definitely Word of God, so could that mean that Lelouch knows he'll get resurrected and thus killed himself off with that knowledge?

Spoiler for Response:

Is it 100% sure that the Resurrection power of Geass works all the time? Wouldnt that mean other Geass users such as Mao would be resurrected? Besides, I'm sure Lelouch wouldn't have known about the Resurrection.

[azul120]

I guess I was a little late, but the past day was the 4th anniversary of CG's premiere.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

A thought has crossed my mind reading over this discussion about the ZR and having just finished the 4th issue of Renya of the Dark.

Spoiler for the manga is making things more confusing:

CC mentions that Geass has the power of Resurrection in issue 2 (when Renya fails to acquire Geass). Since Taniguichi is writing this manga it is official and he's definitely Word of God, so could that mean that Lelouch knows he'll get resurrected and thus killed himself off with that knowledge?

This discussion is probably more suited for the manga thread, but I just checked issue 2 and didn't see anything like that. Unless it's part of a different translation or something along those lines, but there doesn't seem to be a scene where it would fit.

However, the only remotely similar reference I've seen, back in issue 1 of the new Renya manga...

Spoiler for Renya ch1:

...is C.C. actually saying:

"You who has removed himself from the flow of resurrection...will now live along with the horror of..."

In other words, C.C. appears to be arguing the opposite of what you've suggested: that the power of Geass removes its users from the "flow of resurrection" normal people go through (immortality instead of, say, reincarnation?).

Then again, I'll admit the issue could still be directly addressed at some later point in time.

At the very least, any further interpretations are far too premature. Nevertheless, back to the previous discussion.

Originally Posted by azul120

But Suzaku practically knew the Euphie incident was accidental.

Strictly speaking...using Geass on her was accidental, not murdering her.

Lelouch is still responsible for her death and he, of all people, would be the first person to admit it. His reaction never was denial or an excuse. In addition, Suzaku himself was in a different state of mind after the Tokyo catastrophe.

They managed to reach an off-screen understanding but the starting point, as far as we saw, wasn't exactly smooth.

Regarding the Zero Requiem, it happened because the writers chose to have Lelouch Driven to Suicide, and followed in the footsteps of the aforementioned first attempt at that, the plan to seal himself and his father off from the world.

Yes, I don't believe I've ever stated anything to the contrary. Just introduced or highlighted additional elements.

Zero Requiem IMO neither glorified nor demonized Lelouch so much as it made him pitiable on a whole new level.

Well, why can't it do all three things at once? It's a matter of opinion and interpretation.