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kaigan · 2013-06-20, 19:57

i say that the gun is like a bargaining chip for l-elf. i'm sure the dorssian side doesn't know he was there beside shoko. he might have pulled a 'coup de etat' i'm taking the prime minister hostage kind of thing if shoko did something unfavorable to his plan. no need to finish shoko off. just for a show. well, just maybe.

additionally, things like these gives more room for shoko xl-elf development =D

queenSwild · 2013-06-20, 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

L-Elf could kill her with a single finger if he wanted. No way he would actually go through with killing her because he knows how important she is to Haruto. Killing her would completely destroy any plans he has with Haruto and the module as they wouldn't be all too happy that L-Elf murdered their Prime Minister.

If you think that L-Elf was bluffing then you are also saying that L-Elf would have let Shouko give Dorssia the Valvraves. Even though that's their only major trump card. Even though such a thing would destroy all that he worked for, destroy New Jior, and leave everyone unable to defend themselves from Dorssia's attacks. Letting Shouko have her way would have more harmful effects then killing her, really. If Shouko decided to sell out the country that she was picked to represent, that's a pretty good reason to kill her off.

Or they could understand that she would have destroyed them if he let her live? Do you really think that they would betray him? They need him to survive. Although Haruto would be a problem, I'm sure that L-Elf thinks that the module's safety is more important. Plus, how would they find out? He purposely separated her from the others.

Quote:

Quite frankly he literally gains nothing from hurting Shoko while he loses everything he has worked for thus far if he did. Thus a bluff and L-Elf isn't an idiot.

If he let Shouko give up the Valvaves to Dorssians he would also lose everything that he has worked for thus far.

dragon1412 · 2013-06-20, 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

L-Elf could kill her with a single finger if he wanted. No way he would actually go through with killing her because he knows how important she is to Haruto. Killing her would completely destroy any plans he has with Haruto and the module as they wouldn't be all too happy that L-Elf murdered their Prime Minister.

Quite frankly he literally gains nothing from hurting Shoko while he loses everything he has worked for thus far if he did. Thus a bluff and L-Elf isn't an idiot.

The guns doesn't neccesarily to shoot Shoko but the screen is also a target, and that can effectively stop the negotiation.

Destined_Fate · 2013-06-20, 23:23

You're twisting my words. L-Elf wouldn't have let her do that but he also wouldn't have killed her. Stopping her doesn't mean he has to kill her and he would be a fool if he even considered killing her when he has options and how much his plans hinge upon her not being dead.

Shoko is also very popular while L-Elf is an outsider that not even totally trusts, they just keep him around as he's useful. That and they're also a bunch of teenagers that give into emotion very easily, killing Shoko would drive them into a crazy frenzy which L-Elf wouldn't be able to control, especially if Haruto goes after him for blood to avenge Shoko.

DevilHighDxD · 2013-06-20, 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

You're twisting my words. L-Elf wouldn't have let her do that but he also wouldn't have killed her. Stopping her doesn't mean he has to kill her and he would be a fool if he even considered killing her when he has options and how much his plans hinge upon her not being dead.

Shoko is also very popular while L-Elf is an outsider that not even totally trusts, they just keep him around as he's useful. That and they're also a bunch of teenagers that give into emotion very easily, killing Shoko would drive them into a crazy frenzy which L-Elf wouldn't be able to control, especially if Haruto goes after him for blood to avenge Shoko.

Or frame on Dorssian and said they kill her.

Destined_Fate · 2013-06-20, 23:30

No one would believe that considering L-Elf is right there with her and the fact that the Dorssian's didn't want Shoko's death and were trying to get her to do what they wanted. That and L-Elf covered in bloodis going to be all that convincing and even if some believed that somehow the Dorssian's killed Shoko with L-Elf there you can believe that Haruto wouldn't want to work with L-Elf again for letting Shoko die in the first place.

Shinhwa · 2013-06-20, 23:47

Being Shouko is painful

Vallen Chaos Valiant · 2013-06-20, 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinhwa

Being Shouko is painful

Instead of plot armour, Shouko is now protected by Suffering Armour. Her death would bring her peace, which is a good reason not to kill her.

queenSwild · 2013-06-21, 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

You're twisting my words. L-Elf wouldn't have let her do that but he also wouldn't have killed her. Stopping her doesn't mean he has to kill her and he would be a fool if he even considered killing her when he has options and how much his plans hinge upon her not being dead.

Shoko is also very popular while L-Elf is an outsider that not even totally trusts, they just keep him around as he's useful. That and they're also a bunch of teenagers that give into emotion very easily, killing Shoko would drive them into a crazy frenzy which L-Elf wouldn't be able to control, especially if Haruto goes after him for blood to avenge Shoko.

I feel that if Shouko made the wrong decision it would be obvious that she's not fit for his plans. A leader that would sell out her own country and a leader that breaks when making decisions for her country is not a leader that L-Elf is looking for. She would just become a hindrance to his plans, not an aid. That's why L-Elf would chose to off her since he can't just take away her title.

That's the thing. L-Elf is useful. They can't survive without him. L-Elf is called a one-man army who could take down 5,000 soldiers. He also has control over the whole school. You think he wouldn't be able to control and calm down a bunch of emotional of teenagers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Instead of plot armour, Shouko is now protected by Suffering Armour. Her death would bring her peace, which is a good reason not to kill her.

Her father's last words actually gave me a little hope for her character. I think they were along the lines of, "move forward, don't look back." As long as she follows his advice, she should be fine.

~BC~ · 2013-06-21, 00:24

Ruling by fear is not as good an idea as you think it is. Especially when you have no one to watch your back. Being a one man army means L-Elf could figure out a way to kill all of them that's not the same as co-existing with them for an extended period of time and getting them to go along with his ideas.

Irenesharda · 2013-06-21, 00:47

Watching this episode again, I watched the order of events. L-elf handed his notes to Satomi for him take over right BEFORE the Dorssians hailed them. Shoko asked where he was going and that was when they got the call. He then distinctly tells her to go to the PM quarters to take the call and escorts her alone.

L-11 knew that they were going to call her and bargain with her for her father's life. That's why he left his notes with someone else even before the hail was made. He was definitely going to kill her if things didn't go right. He set all of that up beforehand so that he would be the only one in the room with her when she got the call. Because he can't accurately predict her actions, he went there with her in person to make sure she didn't let her emotions destroy everyone on the module. If Shoko had called Haruto to tell him not to attack, Haruto wouldn't have and would have tried to save the dad. Remember, he's all about saving "everyone", and L-11 knows this. There was no way that they could have saved both the module and Shoko's dad, he knew that too.

L-11 would have killed her if she had made the wrong choice of either giving into Dorssia's demands or calling Haruto. If he had only meant to bluff, he wouldn't have pulled his safety off. He was very serious. He won't let anything keep him from his goals, even the parameters of Haruto's contract.

And actually, with the advent of Cain's invasion, I'm beginning to wonder how much L-elf cares about that contract and what is his real endgame.

dragon1412 · 2013-06-21, 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~BC~

Ruling by fear is not as good an idea as you think it is. Especially when you have no one to watch your back. Being a one man army means L-Elf could figure out a way to kill all of them that's not the same as co-existing with them for an extended period of time and getting them to go along with his ideas.

Ruling by fear is not as bad ab idea you think it is

. Ruling by fear is extremely effective during war( in RL that is) the main example is the Nazis. In war where the losing side lose everything, fear is much more effective than other method. Watch your back or not is not a matter when it's come to governing. L-elf Ultimate goal is the revolution, not co-existing with them for an extended period of time and getting them to go along with his ideas. He don't need them to do that, for human, as long as their goal is fulfilled, they couldn't careless about other goals. this is the same reason why Shouko got so many support even though Satomi is much more realistic. Her goal overlap with people goals and she spoke that out, considering that they are an emotional bunch, the threat that they will die or their dream will never be fulfilled is much more effective than a leader who only spoke of "we can".

Character wise, while Shouko is indeed an excellent character, her greatest power and her greatest flaw is the same : " emotional", she is capable of sway the people emotion but she also swayed by her own and people's emotion or like someone describe her " follow the heat of the moment". And as i stated before, among the main cast, power-wise, Shouko is the most replacable, as the ValVrave is also capable lifting people spirit and the Module function have nothing to deal with Shouko, she is more fit for the time of peace, where people can express their feeling rather than the time of war, when like the enemy commander said" victory" is needed more than anything, justice or compassion is meaningless when it come to survival.

~BC~ · 2013-06-21, 01:49

Nazi example doesn't work by a long shot. For one, we're not talking about a real country with a real established government and all the complexity that entails. It's just a bunch of young, emotional and foolish teenagers and one apathetic soldier.

Edit: For the record, saying it's not "as good an idea" does not automatically mean I think it's a an extremely bad idea. It just really wouldn't be wise in this particular instance. Unless of course it turns out L-Elf really does have some sort of psychic power but even then...

Destined_Fate · 2013-06-21, 04:15

Even if she tried to make the wrong decision L-Elf would easily just knock her out or close the negotiations before she can finish. L-Elf wouldn't gain anything from offing her while he can easily silence her temporarily if she losses her senses and keep everything he has thus far.

Emotions. Shoko being murdered by L-Elf would cause the Teenagers to lose all rationale again and they would attack or eventually force L-Elf to run away. Especially if Haruto decides he wants to kill L-Elf as well over Shoko.

GoldenLand · 2013-06-21, 04:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Emotions. Shoko being murdered by L-Elf would cause the Teenagers to lose all rationale again and they would attack or eventually force L-Elf to run away.

It would at the very least cause Haruto to lose it, and Haruto is the one L-Elf wants as his right hand man. So keeping Shouko safe could be essential for L-Elf. Plus she has the charisma to lead the students in general. She's useful alive.

On the other hand, if he could pass off her death as an action of the invading forces, he might be willing to bet on Haruto believing him. But to do that he would have to have a reason to believe that Shouko living and leading the students was a bigger risk than a potentially berserk Haruto. In any case, if he was worried about her being a liability as a leader and caving under pressure and selling them all out, she probably proved herself to L-Elf this time by not calling Haruto to tell him not to use the harakiri blade thing.

Irenesharda · 2013-06-21, 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Even if she tried to make the wrong decision L-Elf would easily just knock her out or close the negotiations before she can finish. L-Elf wouldn't gain anything from offing her while he can easily silence her temporarily if she losses her senses and keep everything he has thus far.

Emotions. Shoko being murdered by L-Elf would cause the Teenagers to lose all rationale again and they would attack or eventually force L-Elf to run away. Especially if Haruto decides he wants to kill L-Elf as well over Shoko.

Sorry, but I disagree. A trained soldier like L-11 doesn't deliberately take off his safety on his gun unless he's going to fire it. And you can't say he was going to bluff since he never even let her know in the slightest that he had it. He's not going to waste time with threats. He maybe hanging around students, but he's still the same cold-blooded killer soldier he always was.

I think you might be overestimating how much L-11 cares about what these students think. He's not going to let ANYTHING, get in his way from his goals. Even if he didn't know that Cain was going to attack (which I doubt), he has made this whole module dependent on him. They can't do much without him, and they know it. Also, this is the guy who lived on the module for weeks without anyone knowing, I don't think he's going anywhere unless he wants to.

Anyway, despite all that, the Module and everyone on it would have died if Shoko made the wrong call. He would rather risk Haruto's anger later and still be alive, then have them all die because a mistake that she made.

Fjoergyn · 2013-06-21, 07:54

L-11 is a guy who hides his true feelings for the safety of the same but that does not mean it did not happen long shoko pain, I think his real feelings are going to see in the 2T

L-11 was trained to suppress emotions in a dangerous mission but that does not mean that this is your true self, your true feelings are there to arise any time.

Destined_Fate · 2013-06-21, 12:26

I disagree with your disagree. These kids haven't shown to be rationale at all and Shoko is by far the most popular student on the entire Country. Everyone knows her and so far everyone, except a few like Satomi, love her to death because of her personality and selfless nature. L-Elf has no reason to kill her as killing her ruins his plans entirely and he knows it. He could easily disable or wound her or even cut off the conversation. Thus her life at that moment was never endanger as L-Elf literally gains nothing from taking it while he loses everything if he did.

L-Elf isn't an idiot, he may not care for what the students think but he darn well knows that he needs Haruto and the student nation at this time for his plans to go amount to anything. He isn't going to just clear the board and make a bunch of enemies for no gain, it just isn't in his personality.

You cannot say this decision would kill everyone or not while we can say that if L-Elf killed her he would NOT be welcomed on the module anymore and would have Haruto and the Valvrave pilots hunting him down for blood with the whole "they cannot die" thing so no matter what L-Elf would eventually fall to them because of that. As for the Module? If anything the Empire would just take it over and absorb them into their Empire after getting the Valvrave's. Especially since they would want to, if they can, obtain the entire Module in one piece if possible for further study upon the project.

Winterson · 2013-06-21, 12:34

Most of you are missing the point of why his father's death is necessary.
-Daddy is smart. He knows that Shouko might get killed if her wavering emotons rule over her rationality. Of course he's a politician that's why he knows. He buys her time to think whilst he knows it's the only way he can do to lessen the risk of losing more casualties thus sacrificing himself and saving her daughter, the very least yet best thing he could do for his daughter. Daddy is smart and brave. Good monologue.
-A life's gained with another life being sold to death. Shouko doesn't have to die, and that's it. This is not a romantic pairing yet Shoko and L Elf's chemistry is getting more intriguing.
-Shouko must suffer from a great loss to force her to become more of a tough woman.

Destined_Fate · 2013-06-21, 12:36

I already know this, we aren't talking about the necessity of his death in that conversation though. He was doomed to die the moment they showed him as character development for Shoko and to make her into a stronger leader. If anything this downplays her death flags as such big character development over a death of a character for her would be pointless if they planned to off her in the next episode before she can even grow over this sad event.

2013-06-21, 00:47	Link #91
Irenesharda Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Chicago	Watching this episode again, I watched the order of events. L-elf handed his notes to Satomi for him take over right BEFORE the Dorssians hailed them. Shoko asked where he was going and that was when they got the call. He then distinctly tells her to go to the PM quarters to take the call and escorts her alone. L-11 knew that they were going to call her and bargain with her for her father's life. That's why he left his notes with someone else even before the hail was made. He was definitely going to kill her if things didn't go right. He set all of that up beforehand so that he would be the only one in the room with her when she got the call. Because he can't accurately predict her actions, he went there with her in person to make sure she didn't let her emotions destroy everyone on the module. If Shoko had called Haruto to tell him not to attack, Haruto wouldn't have and would have tried to save the dad. Remember, he's all about saving "everyone", and L-11 knows this. There was no way that they could have saved both the module and Shoko's dad, he knew that too. L-11 would have killed her if she had made the wrong choice of either giving into Dorssia's demands or calling Haruto. If he had only meant to bluff, he wouldn't have pulled his safety off. He was very serious. He won't let anything keep him from his goals, even the parameters of Haruto's contract. And actually, with the advent of Cain's invasion, I'm beginning to wonder how much L-elf cares about that contract and what is his real endgame. __________________ "Someone who cannot forgive lies or secrets, will never trust another." - Major Kyosuke Hyobu

2013-06-21, 01:49	Link #93
~BC~ Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005	Nazi example doesn't work by a long shot. For one, we're not talking about a real country with a real established government and all the complexity that entails. It's just a bunch of young, emotional and foolish teenagers and one apathetic soldier. Edit: For the record, saying it's not "as good an idea" does not automatically mean I think it's a an extremely bad idea. It just really wouldn't be wise in this particular instance. Unless of course it turns out L-Elf really does have some sort of psychic power but even then... Last edited by ~BC~; 2013-06-21 at 02:02.

2013-06-21, 12:34	Link #99
Winterson Wrath of Her Fury Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Earth's last post of defense	Most of you are missing the point of why his father's death is necessary. -Daddy is smart. He knows that Shouko might get killed if her wavering emotons rule over her rationality. Of course he's a politician that's why he knows. He buys her time to think whilst he knows it's the only way he can do to lessen the risk of losing more casualties thus sacrificing himself and saving her daughter, the very least yet best thing he could do for his daughter. Daddy is smart and brave. Good monologue. -A life's gained with another life being sold to death. Shouko doesn't have to die, and that's it. This is not a romantic pairing yet Shoko and L Elf's chemistry is getting more intriguing. -Shouko must suffer from a great loss to force her to become more of a tough woman. __________________ WORDS ARE JUST WORDS UNLESS YOU PUT MEANING INTO IT.

2013-06-20, 19:57	Link #81
kaigan Segmentation fault Join Date: Mar 2011	i say that the gun is like a bargaining chip for l-elf. i'm sure the dorssian side doesn't know he was there beside shoko. he might have pulled a 'coup de etat' i'm taking the prime minister hostage kind of thing if shoko did something unfavorable to his plan. no need to finish shoko off. just for a show. well, just maybe. additionally, things like these gives more room for shoko xl-elf development =D

2013-06-20, 23:23	Link #84
Destined_Fate Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."	You're twisting my words. L-Elf wouldn't have let her do that but he also wouldn't have killed her. Stopping her doesn't mean he has to kill her and he would be a fool if he even considered killing her when he has options and how much his plans hinge upon her not being dead. Shoko is also very popular while L-Elf is an outsider that not even totally trusts, they just keep him around as he's useful. That and they're also a bunch of teenagers that give into emotion very easily, killing Shoko would drive them into a crazy frenzy which L-Elf wouldn't be able to control, especially if Haruto goes after him for blood to avenge Shoko.

2013-06-20, 23:30	Link #86
Destined_Fate Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."	No one would believe that considering L-Elf is right there with her and the fact that the Dorssian's didn't want Shoko's death and were trying to get her to do what they wanted. That and L-Elf covered in bloodis going to be all that convincing and even if some believed that somehow the Dorssian's killed Shoko with L-Elf there you can believe that Haruto wouldn't want to work with L-Elf again for letting Shoko die in the first place.

2013-06-20, 23:47	Link #87
Shinhwa Banned Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Age: 33	Being Shouko is painful

2013-06-21, 00:24	Link #90
~BC~ Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005	Ruling by fear is not as good an idea as you think it is. Especially when you have no one to watch your back. Being a one man army means L-Elf could figure out a way to kill all of them that's not the same as co-existing with them for an extended period of time and getting them to go along with his ideas.

2013-06-21, 04:15	Link #94
Destined_Fate Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."	Even if she tried to make the wrong decision L-Elf would easily just knock her out or close the negotiations before she can finish. L-Elf wouldn't gain anything from offing her while he can easily silence her temporarily if she losses her senses and keep everything he has thus far. Emotions. Shoko being murdered by L-Elf would cause the Teenagers to lose all rationale again and they would attack or eventually force L-Elf to run away. Especially if Haruto decides he wants to kill L-Elf as well over Shoko.

2013-06-21, 07:54	Link #97
Fjoergyn Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Last.fm	L-11 is a guy who hides his true feelings for the safety of the same but that does not mean it did not happen long shoko pain, I think his real feelings are going to see in the 2T L-11 was trained to suppress emotions in a dangerous mission but that does not mean that this is your true self, your true feelings are there to arise any time.

2013-06-21, 12:26	Link #98
Destined_Fate Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."	I disagree with your disagree. These kids haven't shown to be rationale at all and Shoko is by far the most popular student on the entire Country. Everyone knows her and so far everyone, except a few like Satomi, love her to death because of her personality and selfless nature. L-Elf has no reason to kill her as killing her ruins his plans entirely and he knows it. He could easily disable or wound her or even cut off the conversation. Thus her life at that moment was never endanger as L-Elf literally gains nothing from taking it while he loses everything if he did. L-Elf isn't an idiot, he may not care for what the students think but he darn well knows that he needs Haruto and the student nation at this time for his plans to go amount to anything. He isn't going to just clear the board and make a bunch of enemies for no gain, it just isn't in his personality. You cannot say this decision would kill everyone or not while we can say that if L-Elf killed her he would NOT be welcomed on the module anymore and would have Haruto and the Valvrave pilots hunting him down for blood with the whole "they cannot die" thing so no matter what L-Elf would eventually fall to them because of that. As for the Module? If anything the Empire would just take it over and absorb them into their Empire after getting the Valvrave's. Especially since they would want to, if they can, obtain the entire Module in one piece if possible for further study upon the project.

2013-06-21, 12:36	Link #100
Destined_Fate Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."	I already know this, we aren't talking about the necessity of his death in that conversation though. He was doomed to die the moment they showed him as character development for Shoko and to make her into a stronger leader. If anything this downplays her death flags as such big character development over a death of a character for her would be pointless if they planned to off her in the next episode before she can even grow over this sad event.