Bakemonogatari generic discussion

[Morbus]

Has it ever occurred to you that some people may be at a lack of words for what they experience? Did you ever think that maybe when people say "this is deep" it's because they can't describe it any other way? Like when they say Fallout 3 is innovative, or GTA is fun...

In any case, and let it be made clear (because I'm likely to have branded the series as "deep" in the past, although I can't recall saying that), I enjoy Bakemonogatari for how well it's written and for how refreshing the characters are. I can see how those strong points could be mistaken for depth, though. It's not deep, it's just... well, better than the common tripe we're used to see. Remember, we're in a world where Clannad Afterstory is considered to be a masterpiece of storytelling by many...

[Ice Block]

Originally Posted by Morbus

Remember, we're in a world where Clannad Afterstory is considered to be a masterpiece of storytelling by many...

Did you know that before the anime was even announced, it was widely considered impossible to adapt Clannad faithfully without reverting to Higurashi-like resets or Endless Eight repeats? If you can suggest a better way to faithfully tell the whole Clannad story in an anime format than what was presented, then enlighten us, please.

Clannad was the best story of its genre at the time -- and perhaps even 'til now. Yes, the ending might be hard to follow for those who had not played the game and had not paid full attention to the details in the anime, but as Jason said:

It’s not the best ending.
She’s not the best girl.
But it’s the best story.

Originally Posted by Clarste

except Nadeko who has no twists and is the least interesting character for it

I'm not so sure, but I think some novel readers think that there's something more about Nadeko -- what, with some talk regarding her being the "last boss" some time ago. Too bad she got shafted (in the books, IIRC), since she got the least screentime among the five main heroines. Anyway, IMO, Nadeko's the best specimen yet among her archetype, especially when you consider her in-character commentary for the BDs. She doesn't hinder plot/character development anyway, so there's no need to fix something that isn't broken.

Originally Posted by sirn

Actually, I'm expecting something like, say, April. June is totally unexpected.

Animate has also updated their site. So it's pretty much LOLSHAFT, not an error.

Edit: Official site has also updated. Announcement.

Spoiler for my feelings:

Still somewhat relieved, though.

Good work SHAFT. As expected.

Spoiler for facepalm.jpg:

[npal]

Originally Posted by Ice Block

Did you know that before the anime was even announced, it was widely considered impossible to adapt Clannad faithfully without reverting to Higurashi-like resets or Endless Eight repeats? If you can suggest a better way to faithfully tell the whole Clannad story in an anime format than what was presented, then enlighten us, please.

Ah that is a pretty easy one. Toei had the brains for it, it's pretty simple. Do away with the blobs of light.

Also, the "not the best ending" hardly justifies the "best story" but I suppose in the end it's up to individual taste. Clannad COULD have been the better story though, I'll hand you that.

Of course when we say a medium should hold its own alone, without the need to turn to the adapted material to fill in the blanks or that the blobs of light are one of the lamest things a human mind could think about in terms of a story element or an ending, we're bad trolls who troll the nice peace-loving Clannad fans...

As far as Bakemonogatari goes, I doubt it's telling a concrete story so there's no point comparing the "story" to others. It's the character interaction through dialogue and the use and/or subversion of a number of stereotypes that caused it to kill the competition, even when SHAFT admitted it was aired unfinished.

[Morbus]

Originally Posted by Ice Block

Did you know that before the anime was even announced, it was widely considered impossible to adapt Clannad faithfully without reverting to Higurashi-like resets or Endless Eight repeats? If you can suggest a better way to faithfully tell the whole Clannad story in an anime format than what was presented, then enlighten us, please.

I certainly understand the limitations of the medium, and I think Clannad is a hell of a show. It's just not perfect, right from the beginning, from the games. The plot, the characters... It's just that I can see so much room for improvement. For example, we're dealing with a purely harem based setting that follows classic rules. This equals to room for improvement. Secondary characters and semi-secondary characters are often shallow and underdeveloped. This equals to room for improvement (and I'm well aware that there are time restrictions).

Spoiler:

Ushio died basically because Tomoya killed her... Well, that's what it looked like to me.

Nagisa is cliche. Tomoya is relatively boring in his main hero-ness. Which is a clear sign of the presence of the commonly seen effort to entice empathy between the viewer/player and the characters. This equals to room for improvement. Alas, as a general rule, it's usual for us to see, in Afterstory, occasions where blatant emotional mechanisms are employed. They are certainly powerful, but a bit short of brilliant, to be honest. The ending... well, I understand anime is meant for Japanese people, and they have different paradigms, and the endings are something that are dangerous to experiment with. I understand that very well. But even inside those restrictions, the ending, the second half of the last episode, could be used for so much more. Even without an epilogue, which the western-minded public would certainly welcome.

In the end, nothing is perfect. Because as soon as we reach the "perfect level" we aimed at, we come up with some new criticism, some new "perfect level" to aim at. And this is why we tend to see better things as years pass by. I don't blame Clannad for not being perfect, but it's kind of strange that I, with little experience in anime (clannad was my 5th show, IIRC), can see flaws and other people cannot... Or don't seem to be able to.

Originally Posted by Ice Block

But it’s the best story.

Well, maybe it is. But that doesn't mean it's perfect. I don't know. I face this issue time and again: the best of the best isn't as good as it could be. In Clannad's case, they just gave into the limitations of the genre and the medium. I don't care if it was thought to be impossible to adapt it. It is thought to be impossible to adapt the real story of a dead fish down the toilet, and we're not going to call a successful adaptation of that a masterpiece...

[Pocari_Sweat]

Not sure how Clannad and Bakemonogatari relate but neither animes have the best stories. Nevertheless, it does not mean that I did not immensely enjoy them. Characters are the most important aspect in any entertainment form be it anime, movies, TV series. You can have a good story, but if the characters are bad, it will be of poor entertainment value. The same cannot be said for shows with good characters but average stories, they will likely still be liked. How the story is told is also more important than the plot content itself, which often comes hand in hand how the characters are portrayed and developed.

Both Clannad and Bakemonogatari had "a story", neither superb nor terrible. In the case of Clannad was the simple life story of Okazaki, going through high school shenangians to friendships to love to marriage to childbirth to raising a family. How it was handled however, was superb. Clannad After Story episode 18 is a clear example of a simple, yet cliche situation executed masterfully.

Bakemonogatari on the other hand is the story of Araragi and his relationships with different girls and their troubles (and oddities). The story is not any more deep than this and I am pretty sure the author didn't intend it to be. Nevertheless, the character interactions and dialogue is what made the show.

If people want to see good story animes, there are looking in the wrong directions if they seek that in Clannad or Bakemonogatari. You are better off searching for animes such as Death Note or Higashi no Eden. Nonetheless, I enjoyed these two animes as well but different reasons. I repeat, you do not need to have an original or revolutionary story for a piece of entertainment is good as long as it is executed well.

[Jarmel]

I was expecting May at the worst. Wow so they haven't even started on the next episode. Why in god's name don't they hire more people. This is ridiculous.

[sirn]

Originally Posted by Jarmel

Why in god's name don't they hire more people. This is ridiculous.

They're always recruiting. But you can guess, nobody want to join them. One animator even complain in his Twitter "got a work from Shaft. Refused it because I hate them."

[Jarmel]

Originally Posted by sirn

They're always recruiting. But you can guess, nobody want to join them. One animator even complain in his Twitter "got a work from Shaft. Refused it because I hate them."

Is there any particular reason for that?

[sirn]

Originally Posted by Jarmel

Is there any particular reason for that?

He said he hate the style they always used. (I think he was asked to do a storyboard and episode direction.) Some hated them for the production scheduling, and such. Well, mostly Shaft's own fault.

[omimon]

Originally Posted by sirn

He said he hate the style they always used. (I think he was asked to do a storyboard and episode direction.) Some hated them for the production scheduling, and such. Well, mostly Shaft's own fault.

Whatever, as long as the finished product is enjoyable they can use baby blood for all i care.

[Jarmel]

Originally Posted by sirn

He said he hate the style they always used. (I think he was asked to do a storyboard and episode direction.) Some hated them for the production scheduling, and such. Well, mostly Shaft's own fault.

Didn't know they were kinda universally hated over there. The production scheduling would probably be fixed if they had more people though. If the animators hate Shaft's style then not much can be done I guess.

[Kunagisa]

I laughed so hard when I saw the delay. They totally should be the one to animate 新本格魔法少女りすか, and they will ALWAYS be on time for that considering how #$)#*@)#($@)# slow the source materials come out.

[npal]

Originally Posted by stuopidget

I laughed so hard when I saw the delay. They totally should be the one to animate 新本格魔法少女りすか, and they will ALWAYS be on time for that considering how #$)#*@)#($@)# slow the source materials come out.

They could animate any shounen series. Fillers will be a thing of the past (Or the manga will start adding fillers while waiting for the anime to catch up )

[Woland]

Originally Posted by Jarmel

Didn't know they were kinda universally hated over there. The production scheduling would probably be fixed if they had more people though. If the animators hate Shaft's style then not much can be done I guess.

They can send some of the "manual" work out of japan for example (like at the time of first series of ef). With digital@Shaft it's not that they are lacking in composing, and department a bit less pressure over the few animators they own it wouldn't be so bad. Off course it would be a good idea to not get to work on 6 series in one single year with an undersized studio... and popularity for theirs title, with exception of Aniplex ones, is sinking, so was not a good idea in any way.

[Malkuth]

I am not sure where the similarities between Clannad and Bakemonogatari were found:

One had a huge budget, while the other abysmal.
One had the most predictable and boring direction, while the other experimented.
One drugged for 40 episodes reshuffling previous plots, while the other was at one layer sarcastic about cliches and on the other a quite intriguing insight into growing up.
One barely covered it's budget, while the other returned multiples to the producers.
One is based on moe-blobs, while the other on freaks
...
Should I continue?

[Clarste]

Plot-wise they're quite similarly structured. "Guy goes out and helps a bunch of girls with their problems one at a time." And I don't think Bakemonogatari can honestly be said not to have any Moe-blobs. I think it's quite meaningful to compare them actually, if not primarily because of the differences you're pointing out. They're quite different takes on the same basic genre or whatever you want to call it.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Clarste

Plot-wise they're quite similarly structured. "Guy goes out and helps a bunch of girls with their problems one at a time." And I don't think Bakemonogatari can honestly be said not to have any Moe-blobs. I think it's quite meaningful to compare them actually, if not primarily because of the differences you're pointing out. They're quite different takes on the same basic genre or whatever you want to call it.

Wow, boy helps girls describes more than half the anime produced

And moe-blobs? hm, probably depends on your definitions ... IMHO, even Nadeko that got shafted, had a more complicated personality than all the girls in KyoAni adaptions combined

[Clarste]

No, I said "Guy goes out and helps a bunch of girls with their problems one at a time" which is quite a bit more specific.

a) Guy is singular, girls is plural.

b) Guy "goes out" to help them. He goes out of his way to. He makes it his mission. This eliminates quite a bit of the harem genre that have completely passive protagonists who might only help by accident or by getting caught up in something.

c) A bunch of. There are more than a few. It isn't merely a single love interest, or even a love triangle.

d) Problems. The girls all have their own idiosyncratic problems that can be fixed. No girl would be "okay" if left alone. No one is well-adjusted.

e) One at a time. The plot moves in arcs centering on one girl at a time. Unless the girls are paired up to specifically have overlapping problems, you don't see their problems being resolved incidentally along with someone else's. They require the undivided attention of the guy to be resolved.

f) I guess I didn't say this, but both Clannad and Bakemonogatari share the idea that the male lead also has his own problems, but can only fix, or even notice, these problems through his interactions with the girls. This serves as the main arc of the story.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Clarste

No, I said "Guy goes out and helps a bunch of girls with their problems one at a time" which is quite a bit more specific.

a) Guy is singular, girls is plural.

b) Guy "goes out" to help them. He goes out of his way to. He makes it his mission. This eliminates quite a bit of the harem genre that have completely passive protagonists who might only help by accident or by getting caught up in something.

c) A bunch of. There are more than a few. It isn't merely a single love interest, or even a love triangle.

d) Problems. The girls all have their own idiosyncratic problems that can be fixed. No girl would be "okay" if left alone. No one is well-adjusted.

e) One at a time. The plot moves in arcs centering on one girl at a time. Unless the girls are paired up to specifically have overlapping problems, you don't see their problems being resolved incidentally along with someone else's. They require the undivided attention of the guy to be resolved.

f) I guess I didn't say this, but both Clannad and Bakemonogatari share the idea that the male lead also has his own problems, but can only fix, or even notice, these problems through his interactions with the girls. This serves as the main arc of the story.

Indeed, this is your average harem show, now if you want to think Clannad (the anime) was innovative because it killed good humor and pretended to be serious, while Bakemonogatari reveled on self-sarcasm of its genre ... well, that's another story.

My take is that Clannad was a rehash/reshuffle of Air and Kannon, ... hell your average galge or harem; while Bakemonogatari, played on a completely different level, using the same plot start ... a harem.

Dunno, how often do you hear lines, you have a harem because you're a vampire, which on another level implies that the girl saying it has fallen for the guy exactly because of this reason, which on yet another level we know it is not true

I really do not want to give countless examples of bad scripting in Clannad, it would just be mean to those that had not suffered the hundreds of Clannads before it

[Marion]

Originally Posted by sirn

Bad news. Bakemonogatari Vol.6 - Tsubasa Cat 2 has been postponed to
June 9, 2010

via Sofmap


It's either an error from Sofmap's side or LOLSHAFT.

Shaft delaying their releases!?! Wow this is totally unexpected.