[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[rogerpepitone]

@804: I thought the general hypothesis was that

Spoiler:

Maria's early death was the big change; she survives to the end in the other episodes; she's clearly connected with something bigger (the notes and appearance in ep. 4); the magic circles stop appearing with her death.

[Rias]

And the results are out...
Beato's ranking for most suspicious has been falling per epsiode, while Kannon is going up.

Beato: 3-2-6-7
I guess people still want to believe that Beato can be nice and friendly, like in ep3...(at least I still do )

Kannon: 23-22-15-2
Not surprising with those mysterious deaths, "only confirmed by red text" deaths/corpses, and the Kanon = Shannon theory...

[Kitsu]

Don't forget that he was shown after his death two times. That's just makes him suspicious

[BrianlAFl]

Hello, this will be my first post here, but I felt I had to say something about this great game and a theory that some of your posts have given me about this story.

Here we go:

Spoiler for Ep. 1-4 Spoilers:

I was thinking about the whole delusion thing about some of the characters and how this can tie to Battler as well. I'm sure most of you will remember that in the first episode Beatrice never showed herself and almost everyone denied her existence, even the servants, who seemed to have a vague idea of who she was. This could just be my faulty memory, but it implies something great, that in the first episode it was as if she never existed. You will also notice that Battler was struggling at this point denying the existence of a 19th person but found it convenient to make one, coming to one conclusion, what if Beatrice was created by Battler in order to make a convict other than the 18 in the mansion? This would make the whole thing a delusion Battler made. Which would also make Battler the person who wrote the letters in order to make the witch collectively true.

That's all for now, I eagerly await your thoughts on this.

Oh and Thank you Witch Hunt for making it possible for me to enjoy this great sound novel!

[izmosmolnar]

Spoiler for ep4 patched:

Well, I'd like to point out the servants are convinced about her existance. In the creepy scene with Battler (+later Maria) in the kitchen, they've been trying to convince him, that she exists and she actually stands in the vicinity, but Battler is not able to see him due to his genetics. The servants seemed to me, like they are certain she's real.

I also believe Battler has some kinda power to "materialize" his "wishes" to a certain degree, if I don't dismiss the magic theories. There's just too many coincidences throughout the game (need romance, next episode we see George-Shannon, Jess-Kanon. Goatservants don't exist, next episode there's an army of them, etc. But I couldn't really imagine Beatrice has been "created" by Battler's vivid imagination (of course I cannot rebuke it either fully for now).

[BrianlAFl]

Spoiler for Ep 4 Spoils, it stinks, really.:

Well another thing I was trying to point out was that in episode one Genji was hesitant to reveal Beatrice, and I was just wondering why that was. Also if my memory serves me right, I believe in that scene that they weren't trying to convince him, just telling him that she might exist, and that only Maria was giving any definite "She 'exists'" type of thing.

I also feel very sorry for Battler after what happened at the end of Episode three, having been back-stabbed. It makes me wonder what their relationship could be like, hadn't she been so cruel. But I guess that from what I have seen in this episode about the back story for Maria that if your a witch and have emotions akin to rage toward another, those "black arms" will make you evil, which I would assume happened to Beatrice as well. Must be the first signs of cruelty hatching in witches, which could also explain why Maria has that creepy "Kihihihi" laugh.

Oh, might as well say this too, I'll be picking the neutral side of explaining things (reason vs. magic). Like first forming a basis on how it was done by magic then trying to prove otherwise.

[BrianlAFl]

I just wanted to give my thoughts on the seating arrangement argument before. I had always thought that Nanjo was off to the side at some other table, since he wasn't a family relative. Since in every other occasion that is what he would always do, go scoot off to the back of the room and read something.

[actawesome]

Hey guys, I just came across this really cool video:
http://www.dailymotion.com/user/toto...indedness_tech

it doesn't relate to Umineko directly. But the things they discuss in the video are HIGHLY reminiscent of Battlers thinking (and maybe this video will give you a new idea to solve the mystery.)

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Don't forget that he was shown after his death two times. That's just makes him suspicious

Suspicious certainly, there is something very strange about him, and Shannon too. However I still think that Genji is the most suspicious individual, after all he is Kanon's boss.

I wonder if the classic cliché of mistery novels will apply on umineko: the culprit is always the butler.

[cheesie]

Well I REALLY hope Kanon isn't the culprit, I mean I'm placing big hopes on Kanon x Jessica here.

[Marion]

I'm surprised that Amakuza got so high. He only appeared this episode in 1998 but he ranked 6. People do realize that he's in his early 20's in 1998, so in 1986 he would probably be just a little older than Maria XD

Not surprised at the Top 3 though - Battler, Kanon and Nanjo. Nanjo never dies immediately and almost always makes it near the end of the game before dying, Battler is always suspicious:

Spoiler for Ep 4 unpatched:

Especially when you consider how the game ended - he apparently wins but somehow still ends up dead, despite there being no one alive when he beats Beatrice.

And Kanon's deaths are always mysterious and lacking information and

Spoiler for Ep 4, unpatched:

Once again the body just can't be found, despite being definitely dead by the time Beato and Battler have their crazy logic battle.

I'm surprised Rosa is suspicious this time around:

Spoiler for Ep 4 unpatched:

She's one of the first people killed in the 1st twilight.

[Rias]

Spoiler for Amakusa's suspicious points:

1. Works for Okonogi, who has a good chance of being (or at least based on) the same person from the Higurashi world. Suspicious of being Hibari 13.
2. Relationship with Sumadera family. Hair color, cross pendant are stuff you can find similar from Kyrie or Kazumi.
3. Amakusa = Battler survived theory.
4. Clothings somewhat resembles a certain commander of a certain squad...hayhha.

Spoiler for Rosa's suspicious points:

--General points--
1. Rosa is probably the most contradicting person of the whole cast, looking from ep1~4.
-"loves Maria" (ep2, 4)<---> "hates Maria" (ep1 Jessica, 4)
-"a person who keeps her words" (ep1 Battler) <---> "breaks her promise" (ep4 Maria)
-"doesn't have the courage to go against Kinzo until before she died" (ep4) <---> Named her daughter Maria (ep3), raise Maria by herself, has her own company.
-"Quick thinker" (ep2,Battler) <---> "Stupid" (ep3, Eva)
-"Is careful about her appearance to the public" (ep2, 4) <---> Scolds Maria severely in front of others, goes on a vactaion with her lover (while the whole company knows about it), violence in front of welfare workers.

2. Never been staked: not even in ep4. Using fantasy elements as a guide, we see that the only three exceptions has been Maria, Battler and Rosa. Maria belongs in the Mariage Sorciere, so she doesn't get staked. Battler has magic resistance. Rosa has...Rosa Musou? There's gotta be something she's hiding.

--Ep4--
3. No one besides Rosa was able to ask Maria herself about the umbrella. Rosa claimed that "Grandpa/Father" gave it to her.

4. Maria's corpse ended up next to Rosa's, in the chapel. Even tho Rosa died in the first night, her time of death is not confirmed.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Rias

Spoiler for Amakusa's suspicious points:

1. Works for Okonogi, who has a good chance of being (or at least based on) the same person from the Higurashi world. Suspicious of being Hibari 13.
2. Relationship with Sumadera family. Hair color, cross pendant are stuff you can find similar from Kyrie or Kazumi.
3. Amakusa = Battler survived theory.
4. Clothings somewhat resembles a certain commander of a certain squad...hayhha.

Spoiler for Rosa's suspicious points:

--General points--
1. Rosa is probably the most contradicting person of the whole cast, looking from ep1~4.
-"loves Maria" (ep2, 4)<---> "hates Maria" (ep1 Jessica, 4)
-"a person who keeps her words" (ep1 Battler) <---> "breaks her promise" (ep4 Maria)
-"doesn't have the courage to go against Kinzo until before she died" (ep4) <---> Named her daughter Maria (ep3), raise Maria by herself, has her own company.
-"Quick thinker" (ep2,Battler) <---> "Stupid" (ep3, Eva)
-"Is careful about her appearance to the public" (ep2, 4) <---> Scolds Maria severely in front of others, goes on a vactaion with her lover (while the whole company knows about it), violence in front of welfare workers.

2. Never been staked: not even in ep4. Using fantasy elements as a guide, we see that the only three exceptions has been Maria, Battler and Rosa. Maria belongs in the Mariage Sorciere, so she doesn't get staked. Battler has magic resistance. Rosa has...Rosa Musou? There's gotta be something she's hiding.

--Ep4--
3. No one besides Rosa was able to ask Maria herself about the umbrella. Rosa claimed that "Grandpa/Father" gave it to her.

4. Maria's corpse ended up next to Rosa's, in the chapel. Even tho Rosa died in the first night, her time of death is not confirmed.

Spoiler for Reply to Rosa:

1) The point about Battler calling her smart and Eva calling her stupid are completely different outlooks. Battler thinks she's a smart person because of her choices in episode 2, being the only parent out of an original group of 7 parents. Eva thinks she's stupid though (which makes no sense because technically if it wasn't for that hint Rosa would have found the gold before Eva) but you have to remember that, in her own way for each, she hates her brothers and sister. Only person she really cares about is her husband and her son.

As far as her hating Maria, she is what most childcare people would call an emotionally abusive mother. Of course she hits Maria too the fact is that she pretty much screwed up Maria's perception of what is good and bad, because her mother, who she loves, is both those things. Rosa basically has a terrible temper, but she probably does love her daughter - she just can't control her anger and tends to feel humiliated if Maria isn't proper, which probably stems from her own issues with her parents and siblings, looking at episode 2's view on her past.

You do have a point with not being staked though. I never realized it but so far, in every game, Rosa either dies before staking begins (EP 3), at the very beginning (EP 1 and 4) or goes Missing (EP 2). Out of all parents she never has been staked. Maybe it has something to do with being Maria's mother?

Spoiler for Amakusa reply:

1) True, but then again why did Okonogi let Ange go and not give her away to Kasumi? Then again knowing what Okonogi did in Higurashi...
2) True, he does seem to have similar traits from Kyrie and Kasumi, but then you need to wonder why would Eva hire him? She would be the type to do background checks and all - if she found out he was related to Kyrie somehow she would probably kick him off just for that and not because of his friendliness to Ange.
3) Amakusa = Battler theory o_O? Not completely improbable, but Battler would be 30 years old if he survived to 1998. And once again, Eva would be the kind of person to find out things like that easily, unless she purposely covered.
4) dur hur hur

[crazysjd89]

As far as suspicions go, I'm being cautious about suspecting Kanon.

Spoiler for Episode 4:

Considering all red text, even if Kanon does seem suspicious, it'd be kind of hard to find ways for him to do it.

In Episode 1, you can still easily say he did it.
In Episode 2, it's possible, but he would more than likely need Rosa as an accomplice for the Master Keys, or to take the room key and pretend she found it in the room.
Episode 3 is a lot harder, since Kanon is confirmed dead at the beginning, though not impossible.
Episode 4 is easy to suspect him, but there is no evidence other than "his corpse never appeared". Plus, I find it hard to believe that they would accept a servant as Kinzo.

I'm not saying it's not him, just that I'm being cautious about it and trying to come up with other theories. After all, Kanon might very well be the "room that you enter and die" the Ryukishi mentioned.

I'm not really sure how I feel about Kanon being another personality of Shannon. It has reasons and ways it could be true, but at the same time, there is a lot of supporting evidence for Kanon being an independent person.

As far as suspcions go, I still suspect the siblings and their spouses, and rotating through them the first 4 episodes.

[HigurashinoUmineko]

Originally Posted by Marion

You do have a point with not being staked though. I never realized it but so far, in every game, Rosa either dies before staking begins (EP 3), at the very beginning (EP 1 and 4) or goes Missing (EP 2). Out of all parents she never has been staked. Maybe it has something to do with being Maria's mother?

I think I know why she isn't staked.

Spoiler for Episode 4 un-patched:

Remember when Rosa destroyed one of the rabbit toys? And how it says that Siesta 556 was killed by the Black Witch?
I think I rest my case...(Maybe)

[Ankoku-chan]

Originally Posted by Rias

4. Clothings somewhat resembles a certain commander of a certain squad...hayhha.

??? Fill me in here *_*

[cheesie]

Just out of curiosity, as I haven't played the fourth episode yet, but could anyone tell me if this screenshot from the 4th motion graphic video here:



should be taken like what it suggested? *mouth open*

[Marion]

Wellll

Spoiler for EP 4 Ending, Unpatched:

Basically Battler and Beatrice have this giant logic battle on the evening of October 5th during the tea party and in the end Battler ends up winning and Beatrice cries at her defeat, which she stated that she knew would happen because it was literally impossible for her to win (this is explained in the hidden tea party in a way). So Battler feeling sad for her hugs her as she begins to 'die' from her defeat.

[Golden Witch Drugs]

Originally Posted by Marion

Wellll

Spoiler for EP 4 Ending, Unpatched:

Basically Battler and Beatrice have this giant logic battle on the evening of October 5th during the tea party and in the end Battler ends up winning and Beatrice cries at her defeat, which she stated that she knew would happen because it was literally impossible for her to win (this is explained in the hidden tea party in a way). So Battler feeling sad for her hugs her as she begins to 'die' from her defeat.

Well if I'm not mistaken something like this happened in the very end, right?

Spoiler for HUGE SPOILER! Probably...:

Doesn't Battler and Beato fight in the end, and Battler is the lucky winner. Then he admits his love to Beato even though she dies? And Beato admits her as well? But then again, I only heard this (I decided not to even start on the 4:th game before the full ptach is out, but of course I was too curious and looked up all the big spoilers :P)

[Golden Witch Drugs]

Originally Posted by HigurashinoUmineko

I think I know why she isn't staked.

Spoiler for Episode 4 un-patched:

Remember when Rosa destroyed one of the rabbit toys? And how it says that Siesta 556 was killed by the Black Witch?
I think I rest my case...(Maybe)

Now that is just creepy... If we'll discover that Rosa is the black witch in the future, I'll forever think that you are a futureseer :3 AND there were 4 rabbit toys... And 4 rabbit siestas... :O You discovered the Black witch, Ryukushi is gonna be maad :3