2011-02-02, 13:28 | Link #702 | ||||
The True Culprit
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And even if we follow this reasoning ("Stuff being objective in the past"), then Witchfan's argument doesn't refute the "No one can take Kanon's name" thing like he thinks. It's just big example of doublethink he's constructing to avoid an idea he doesn't like.
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2011-02-02, 14:01 | Link #704 | ||||
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2011-02-02, 14:29 | Link #705 | |||
The True Culprit
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As far as I can understand you, you're proposing this idea that Kanon and Shannon are separate people, Kanon died, Shannon took on his identity, then in the fictional Games, the two continued existing separately. What does this say about the red about Kanon's identity being only his own? How does this address any of the assloads of symbolism in EP6 and onward that pretty much shove Shkanon into the reader's face? What the hell is the point of Shannon pretending to be Kanon for all of two seconds if it's not going to have any relevance to anything? In trying to avoid Shkanon you're either A) Producing an even more incoherent and ridiculous and unnecessary idea, or B) Simply stumbling over and failing to explain your idea because you're, at this point, borderline rambling and running on steam and anger and hatred that totally isn't proportional to the thing you're angry at. Quote:
If your answer to this problem is that "Kanon died and he's being portrayed as alive", how come Kinzo doesn't have trap demon twins coming out of his jewelry and quizzing him about love and eternity and shit? By the way, I can defend Shkanon without invoking doublethink or any other similar fallacy, because like it or not, the idea is canonical to Ryukishi's writing. He doesn't insert any implications or intentions for any other answer. You can hate the idea all you like, but it's there and it's not going to go away.
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2011-02-02, 14:40 | Link #706 | |||||
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2011-02-02, 15:09 | Link #709 | |
Your's In Gold, Beatrice
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Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. So you're saying Shannon wrote her story in which there is a character named Kanon, who is alive. But then there is also a Kanon in the real world who is dead and so they can say he is dead or alive and both would be true? And then if in her narrative Kanon dies after say Jessica. You could say Kanon was second to die and it would still be true even though irl he died before the conference?
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2011-02-02, 15:24 | Link #710 |
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You pointed out the biggest problem here. This is where I'm being sketchy; the duality that isn't a duality, as a manner of speaking. My assumption is that, no - because real Kanon is already dead, and hence fictional Kanon is not an accurate portrayal of him, we are not permitted, under the red, to talk about the fictional Kanon's life and death status (it would contradict the past to grant fictional Kanon the right to be alive or dead independently of Kanon). We are permitted to portray a fictional Kanon that is "alive", in the sense that he is allowed to take certain actions within the story, however. When those actions are taken we may assume them legal, perhaps through liberal interpretation of the reds, or perhaps through avatar-play (though one that is dissimilar to Shkanon). The important thing is that they do not contradict the past, even if taken liberally (but within the bounds of what the Author intended).
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2011-02-02, 16:04 | Link #711 | |||||
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The "Kanon is dead but being treated as alive" thing, though, still stands to my other point: It doesn't explain any of the Shkanon-implying major plot points. Quote:
Regardless, I find the idea of people criticizing Shkanon for being ridiculous and unnecessary, then trying to explain it away with an even more obtuse and baseless theory, to be hypocritical. Quote:
So, we have a fantasy scene to cover up for another lie that covers up yet another lie to cover a truth that's not the slightest bit relevant to anything except that Jessica's sort of a necrophiliac? Um, okay. Quote:
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2011-02-02, 16:43 | Link #712 |
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If you ask me, maybe Syaoran-Fan should explain it, cause his\her post was the most coherent concerning what you're talking about.
So what you're saying, Witchfan, is that because Fictional Kanon =\= Real Kanon, we can't apply the red (which refers to the real Kanon) to the fictional one? If I understand what you're saying correctly, then I like the way you're thinking, Witchfan, but I'm more inclined to say that I think that the red would be applied to Fictional Kanon first before considering Real Kanon. On a side note, are we still talking about Ep8? Is there more to translate? I don't remember seeing the ???? here... |
2011-02-02, 16:53 | Link #714 | |||||
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Let's discuss the Shannon and Kanon "not being human", and the symbolism that they need to become whole to love. I personally like the idea that this is actually Kanon (the fictional character) trying to 'surpass' his author. Let's consider Kanon's romance with Jessica canon. The Love Duel can be interpreted as a battle between three fictional characters, each of which was written to symbolise part of Yasu (Shannon). The idea here is that perhaps Shannon, as a reaction to Kanon's death, became increasingly unstable. She began to see in the fictional Kanon something more than a fictional character; attribute human qualities to him. The Love Duel symbolises the desires and feelings of that half-real character, versus the desires of the author (this theme, mind, is actually pretty common in literature, and I believe it is very human for an author in grief to think so). If you want to go with wild assumptions, the Love Duel could at the same time show us that Shannon killed Kanon IRL, but god knows whether this is true, or even necessary to know. An alternate theory is a Six Characters in Search of an Author-esque thing. With that said, one benefit of this theory is that I don't purport to have one explanation for the motive. If you have a better one, I'd love to hear it. Quote:
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- It does not require absurd amounts of liberal interpretation of the red, it merely assumes it as a precondition for what might be stated in red. This is not unique to my theory. The vast majority of us believe this is true (how else do you explain the "Kanon is rescuer" in EP6 otherwise, Shkanon or not?) - It does not require less assumptions, but it requires less implausible ones. I am not asking you to believe Shannon faked being two people of different genders for years (I know you disagree with this, but I still don't like it. I do remember you mentioned you did something similar to this so at the very least I can respect that). I am not asking you to accept she has meta-awareness and avoids the red on purpose (or that, at the very least, she had one hell of a fluke). - Lastly, this is really a personal preference, but I am simply not satisfied with the common Shkanon Whydunnit, or the Shkanon interpretation of the story. I think this theory allows more options here, even if it comes at loss of certainty (at present) about them. Edit: I might as well mention that I am not particularly "attached" to my theory, and would love it if you guys were to offer better ways to make it work. My purpose here is just to offer an alternate interpretation of the story, not to pose my own theory against Shkanon. I know people here often have ideas that are much better than mine. Last edited by witchfan; 2011-02-02 at 17:22. |
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2011-02-02, 17:26 | Link #715 | |
test
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Like the whole Battler is dead thing with Bern... ...Why can't Jessi-sama live?
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2011-02-02, 17:40 | Link #716 | |
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Jessica however really died. |
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2011-02-02, 17:47 | Link #718 | |
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2011-02-02, 19:02 | Link #719 |
Your's In Gold, Beatrice
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I completely agree that everything can be constructed without Shkanon. However, I do believe it is the most likely conclusion. I admit it would be a stretch to consider it earlier on. But after EP 6, 7, and even 8, I think it is something Ryukishi gave us because he realized it was somewhat difficult to reach this on our own. I avoided spoilers so I could reach my own theories and I'll admit after EP5 I had some crazy ones (all of which have required many more stretches of the imagination than Shkanon). However, I reached the Shkanon theory on my own during EP6 so I do believe the facts points to it and not the other way around. And during EP7 I feel I was reaffirmed maaannny times. And many of the things Ryukishi had written in the question arcs do make a lot more sense with this idea and most of them feel too cooincidental for him to have written them without Shkanon in mind (I address the idea of it as a red herring 2 paragraphs below).
All the theories I've read since have been much less realistic than Shkanon and most have made incredible assumptions and jumps in reasoning. Out of all of them I do believe Shkanon fits best with the facts presented. And although it was possible that he used it as a red herring to let us think we were onto the solution only to tell us we were way off (like Beato did to Battler in EP2), I believe that after the series is over it isn't sensible to treat it as a red herring.
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2011-02-02, 19:56 | Link #720 | ||||
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It seems to make the Love Duel seem kind of petty,and not really demonstrative of a major truth like it's supposed to. I'm pretty sure Shannon didn't kill Kanon IRL; both because there's nothing implying any such thing, and the both of them keep lamenting, "We should've done this much sooner" and blah blah blah. It just seems like an obtuse explanation. Putting aside the silliness or believability of Shkanon for a moment, it seems more reasonable to me that the Love Duel represents someone who is love-torn as we're apparently supposed to think; if it was done sooner, the conflict wouldn't have happened to this extent; Jessica's love wouldn't be ripe and Battler wouldn't be there. Moreover, if it's just a "fictional character rebelling" thing, well...Why are they fighting? If it's a fiction where both characters are treated as real people instead of Kanon being dead, why can only one of them be alive? Why can't they both have a happy ending in this fictional narrative? Why is it only one or the other? And moreover, why even bother trying? The story, and thus the romance, will be ended and/or rebooted back to where you started when the book ends. What do you mean by "motive" in this context, by the way? Motive for the murders? Motive for Kanon to rebel against his author and try and become real and stuff? Motive for Shannon to write a living Kanon into the story? What? Quote:
I like Fictional Shkanon as an idea, but honestly, I can't deny that the original Shkanon theory is the most consistent with the text, probably what was intended by Ryukishi, and honestly doesn't create as many problems as people think. It may be stupid, but it's not plothole-inducing, and I maintain that people are overreacting to it a bit. I admit I was fucking pissed off at first too, but it was mostly an emotional reaction because Shkanon sort of makes an 100% happy ending impossible. Quote:
-I wouldn't call it "Shannon being meta-aware or red-dodging" or "Shannon having a fluke" so much as "Beatrice being a dishonest bitch like always who's writing the story to her advantage." But yea, I like the idea that Erika killed Kanon when she shot through the door EIGHT TIMES. This idea is satisfactory with every theory and it's also fucking hilarious. I win. -Also, what's the "Shkanon Whydunnit?" I honestly don't know. People have always used Shkanon as a "how was this done" as far as I've seen. What would it even be? "I dressed up as a meido, therefore murder"? Quote:
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