Magic: The Gathering

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by gl0w_

I feel like i should also say that im not trying to be an ass or tell anyone they are wrong, i probably argued against the changes far harder than anyone here. I was in an angry rage for around 2 weeks when they were announced. But while this is a huge change its not necessarily bad.(also i gotta promote my favorite game =D)

Glad to hear that...

Well, if it's what Garfield wants then there's nothing players can do except adjust to the new rules. I didn't really hate the rule change that much. Only caused me a minor inconvenience, had to upgrade two of my decks with new cards.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Personally I stopped playing 2-3 years ago when I got to college, but I'm thinking of picking it up again. It's really tough for me to keep up with all the new rules, though.

[RWBladewing]

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

Glad to hear that...

Well, if it's what Garfield wants then there's nothing players can do except adjust to the new rules. I didn't really hate the rule change that much. Only caused me a minor inconvenience, had to upgrade two of my decks with new cards.

Garfield doesn't really have anything to do with the direction the game takes; he hasn't for a long time. The major minds behind the game now are Mark Rosewater and Aaron Forsythe. Garfield is on the development team for an upcoming set though; was big news announced just before Worlds because of how rare an occurrence it is. Should be interesting to see how that turns out.

[gl0w_]

Originally Posted by RWBladewing

First, Lotus Cobra is a "may" effect so this change doesn't affect it in any way

Yes your right, sorry i didnt check this before i said it. My bad.

Originally Posted by RWBladewing

Zendikar was supposed to be a land themed set, but it really isn't.

I think that i would still classify Zendikar as a land based set. Even with just the landfall mechanic and the bringing back of the fetchlands (hell yes) and harrow (double hell yes) that it is trying to have a synergy with playing lands and rewarding you for it. But yes i agree 100% and was also very dissapointed when they released that article, i think it was lame for them to come out and basically say they didnt include all of these amazing mechanics just because they were too "difficult". This was a low blow for those of us who actually know the game enough to use cool things like that.

My biggest complement on zendikar is also possibly my biggest critisism. I must say that with the lorwyn cycle i way concerned about the general powerlevel of cards and deck, as almost every deck at the time was lorywn based. Now on one hand im glad they did a great job of printing some amazing cards in Zendikar i think it also shows some power creep. That is honestly my biggest dissapointment with the game right now. i can pretty much sum it up in two words, Baneslayer angel. I remember when someone (i cant remember who) played the deck "The Girl" based around Serra Angel and it saw amazing, i was very dissapointed when they just printed a card that is blatantly better as i loved Serra Angel. Although i know that powercreep is just something that happens overtime to games and it will probably be fixed if it gets to far out of hand, i still dislike seeing previously great cards rendered useless.

Also yes the draft is amazing. The drafts seem to have pretty good synergy because of the landfall mechanic cause hey, everyone plays lands, which is pretty neat. I guess they accomplished what they wanted to with that. But yes it is quite fun.

[Nosauz]

wow that sucks... lets see, probably the best bomb to draft would be the wog, but then you have all those money rares... must really suck for drafters, looking at removal and a fetchland, although fetchlands are decent in limited play we all know their real power is constructed. By the way serra angel is a nuts seven mana for 5/5 flyer vigilance err... whoops thats archangel, but a 4/4 flyer with ardent and for six is pretty nasty. If they brought back harrow... they might have as well brought back crop rotation... just kidding.

[RWBladewing]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

wow that sucks... lets see, probably the best bomb to draft would be the wog, but then you have all those money rares... must really suck for drafters, looking at removal and a fetchland, although fetchlands are decent in limited play we all know their real power is constructed. By the way serra angel is a nuts seven mana for 5/5 flyer vigilance err... whoops thats archangel, but a 4/4 flyer with ardent and for six is pretty nasty. If they brought back harrow... they might have as well brought back crop rotation... just kidding.

Fetchlands are actually a lot better in draft in this set than they were in Onslaught because of the landfall mechanic, specifically cards like Plated Geopede. The wrath replacement is not really even close to the best card in the set for draft, either. It's still great and a very high pick of course, but this format is sometimes so fast that if you let the opponent build up his guys while holding yours back you will be dead or close to it before even getting to cast it. Here's a couple cards that are better than it, including 2 uncommons that I'd actually pick over it if given the chance:

Vampire Nighthawk. This card is absolutely insane and will win the game by itself if they can't deal with it quickly. Widely considered the best card in the set for draft and is worth more money-wise than most of the rares in the set.
Marsh Casualties. Non-symmetrical wrath.
Sorin Markov. Don't really think any explanation is needed.
There's also a bunch of other creatures like Sphinx of Jwar Isle and Malakir Bloodwitch that I consider better than wrath in draft just because of how much pressure they put on the opponent. Creatures have come a long way since Mirrodin.

Oh and yeah, like gl0w said, Serra is pretty outclassed. I proudly present to you, the second card to break $50 in Standard: Bane$layer Angel!

Originally Posted by gl0w_

I think that i would still classify Zendikar as a land based set. Even with just the landfall mechanic and the bringing back of the fetchlands (hell yes) and harrow (double hell yes) that it is trying to have a synergy with playing lands and rewarding you for it. But yes i agree 100% and was also very dissapointed when they released that article, i think it was lame for them to come out and basically say they didnt include all of these amazing mechanics just because they were too "difficult". This was a low blow for those of us who actually know the game enough to use cool things like that.

My biggest complement on zendikar is also possibly my biggest critisism. I must say that with the lorwyn cycle i way concerned about the general powerlevel of cards and deck, as almost every deck at the time was lorywn based. Now on one hand im glad they did a great job of printing some amazing cards in Zendikar i think it also shows some power creep. That is honestly my biggest dissapointment with the game right now. i can pretty much sum it up in two words, Baneslayer angel. I remember when someone (i cant remember who) played the deck "The Girl" based around Serra Angel and it saw amazing, i was very dissapointed when they just printed a card that is blatantly better as i loved Serra Angel. Although i know that powercreep is just something that happens overtime to games and it will probably be fixed if it gets to far out of hand, i still dislike seeing previously great cards rendered useless.

Don't remember where exactly I read this but I feel it sums up my view of the set pretty well: "Zendikar is less a 'land matters' set than a 'playing land matters' set. Most cards don't care about land already being in play, it's mostly just about actually playing them. Makes me sad when I think of how much more it was supposed to have been. It's kinda funny how much harder it punishes mana screw too. A lot of creatures are just overcosted vanilla guys without a steady flow of lands and if the opponent does get his lands you'll be dead by turn 5.

Yeah, the power creep is a bit extreme at times. I was gone from the game from Planar Chaos to Alara Reborn so I missed the entirety of Lorwyn block. I think the card that gave me the biggest shock upon returning to the game was Wooly Thoctar. I was like "Dude, that guy's a 5/4...for 3...with no drawback...what did they do to this game in 2 years?" I like how they actually printed Serra in the same set as Bane$layer just to make it that much easier to compare the 2. Must suck for someone who was a fan of that card. At least Force of Nature didn't get stuck in the same set with Terra Stomper, heh (then again Force has always been terrible but he was equally iconic at one point).

Edit: Forgot to mention, at least it's not as bad for power creep as the WoW card game, heh. At this point I think the number of cards from the first couple sets that don't have a strictly better replacement in a more recent set is in the single digits. Not that anyone buys those cards for anything but the loot anyway, if the amazing 16-player Nationals tournaments are any indication.

[Nosauz]

Yea since I haven't actually looked at the set, it would be hard to judge limited power LOL. But still at four mana table clear is pretty solid in any format, but then again the biggest bombs tend to be equipment and creatures. My god I remeber loxodon warhammer just being freaking disgusting and it was an uncommon LOL.

[gl0w_]

I also think that i should mention putrid leech


In my opinion this is definitely up there with baneslayer and vampire nighthawk as one of the strongest cards in standard right now, especially for jund. I have people constantly underestimate this card when they play against me and it usually gets them killed. And oh yeah, its a common >_>
And with wrath of god being gone, (thats right, its gone =( ) the new WoG replacement almost exactly is Day of Judgment. Exactly the same as wrath only they can regenerate their creatures. My friends and I have speculated they they are trying to make regeneration actually viable for once, with the removal of incinerate to bring back lightning bolt, terror replaced with Doomblade which allows for regen but can hit artifacts and day of judgment. Which is pretty cool cause i was always sad that regeneration was prevented by just about all the removal that was used.

EDIT: I also recommend checking out the results for Worlds Rome 2009 which just ended on sunday. Pretty cool stuff going on, jund had the strongest showing but didnt get the gold.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...rlds09/welcome

[RWBladewing]

Some of the Jund decks that showed up at worlds cut Putrid Leech in favor of Master of the Wild Hunt or Siege-Gang Commander for more late game power and a way besides Bolt to deal with protection from black creatures. Leech is surprisingly bad against the Boros deck too, since it can rarely block Steppe Lynx, will usually eat a Bolt or Path immediately if it tries to pump, and the life loss is actually pretty relevant there. However, the 3 Jund decks that made Top 8 included Leech instead of those other cards, so the "innovation" doesn't seem all that successful.

If I were to mention a creature as the face of Jund or Standard in general though, it'd have to be Bloodbraid Elf. She (?) has pretty much defined Standard. There's not many better plays on turn 4 than Bloodbraid into Blightning or Thrinax. That kind of ridiculous card advantage is why Jund is so scary. I'd post a pic of the card but it has quite possibly the most hideous piece of artwork I've ever seen and I'd rather not make anyone else suffer by seeing it. Yes, even more hideous than a slime-dripping undead leech with multiple mouths spread across its body.

[gl0w_]

Totally agree. I dont like siege-gang so much in jund although i wont deny how amazing of a card it is. I love the leech for its tempo and besides bolt i have resounding thunder to help out with some of the pro black guys and i havent found to much of an issue with them. Though when you dont draw them it can be a pretty hard match up so i understand the desire to include more defense against it. As expected cascade has shifted out of block constructed to be a major factor in this format, and bloodbraid elf is easily the best one. Quite the format defining card. While watching these matches i am impressed with steppe lynx. I knew it was good but with the fetch lands and bushwacker it is far out preforming my expectations. Boros bushwacker is a very cool deck.

[RWBladewing]

I'll admit, I completely mis-evaluated Steppe Lynx and Plated Geopede when I first saw the Zendikar spoiler. I thought a 0/1 that could become a 2/3 or a 4/5 with a fetchland was terrible and not worth all the trouble when you could just play Elite Vanguard instead which would always be a 2/1 for 1 regardless if you had land or not.

Do you run Resounding Thunder over Burst Lightning? The latter seems a lot more flexible and the 3 drop slot is already a bit crowded. Though I guess being able to kill Great Sable Stag on turn 3 instead of turn 5 is a pretty big deal. Have you been able to cycle it?

[gl0w_]

Yes ive cycled it for the win before, but while awesome, thats really not its purpose lol. Without incerirate its really only competed with by burst lightning and ive tested both but ill explain my decision. Bottom line is because, while i love that burst lightning can overcome that magic 3 toughness that is so hard to remove with a direct damage spell, it just doesnt work as well with the cascade mechanic. While better in some cases in hand, when you cascade into a burst lightning 2 damage does very little and would be looking to pay 4 for only one net damage over a resounding thunder which would have been free. So really its a tough choice but i found thunder to overall just be more effective. It also when cycled sits in the five slot which, when you look at it objectivly, is only one less than broodmate. I have found that it can put you a turn behind rather than playing say, a putrid leech which can pump out the four damage to block a creature as well as holding the other 3 for the thunder.

[RWBladewing]

Actually that makes perfect sense, I knew there was something I was missing heh.

Sometimes I wonder if they even tested Cascade internally. Then again, they apparently tested Skullclamp and thought that was fine so I doubt it even matters, haha. The synergy with Suspend in Extended sure seems like it wouldn't have been intentional though.

[gl0w_]

Yes ive wondered the same thing. I used to joke that cascade is "storm if it were fair" but with the things like the cascade swans from last season standard and hypergenesis deck ive come to see that in many cases its even more crazy.

Also perhaps i can get your opinion on this. Ive been testing removing sprouting thrinax from my jund deck in favor of vampire nighthawk. It may seem odd but ive found that other than perhaps trade with a creature and then chump block 2 or 3 others thrinax isnt all that versatile(not saying that 'just' doing those things isnt a lot mind you). My testing with the change is minimal but in about half the games that he sees play nighthawk really get there, both sacrificing itself to kill fatties as well as up in the air for the lifelink. The only problem is that the double black can be a bit hard to achieve on turn 3 at times which sucks. I havent seen any jund decks try this and i was just curious about what you might think.

[RWBladewing]

Thrinax kinda blanks removal too though since it's pretty terrible to burn a spell on him when he'll just become 3 1/1s. Nighthawk dies to pretty much every removal being played. Although, I think that the existence of Thrinax actually makes Nighthawk a pretty good sideboard option. People tend to board out removal vs Jund because of Thrinax and if you then board the Nighthawk in they definitely won't be expecting it and will have fewer ways to deal with it.

Sam Black actually played Nighthawk in his Jund sideboard at worlds, though he went 0-6 heh... It wasn't because of Nighthawk though, it was due to poor play and his deck being less efficient and more topheavy, with Rampant Growth to ruin cascade and Siege Gang and Bloodwitch instead of Leech. The article about this was actually just posted today on Star City but unfortunately you won't be able to read it unless you have a premium membership heh.

[gl0w_]

OK good, all of your points were things that ive at least though of so it seems at least im not missing anything big. Ive been considering buying a membership to star city but was never sure if it was worth it or not

[RWBladewing]

I think it's a pretty good value, only $30 for the whole year and you get a ton of content. ChannelFireball is also pretty good, especially the LSV draft videos, and that's entirely free (for now). I'll definitely be renewing my Star City membership when it expires next month though.

[gl0w_]

I will probably look into that, especially the draft videos. Im finding myself to be one of the only magic players that prefers constructed to limited because everyone i have ever heard loves limited. I do enjoy drafting i just need to get more into it, because the strategy for deck building in limited is quite a lot. Ive been meaning to improve on that.

[RWBladewing]

Yeah, I like draft quite a bit more than constructed. It's pretty much different every time instead of playing against the same couple decks a bunch of times, and I feel that whether you win or lose is a lot more in your hands as opposed to constructed where skill still matters a lot but there are very real "matchups" that people are aware of long before the event. Though I have to admit, I do actually find the idea of extensively testing various decks and innovations to beat the established metagame pretty interesting from a competitive standpoint.

Draft also allows me to build my own deck from the ground up instead of netdecking though. I mean, I could do that in constructed too but I don't exactly think I'm the next big deckbuilding mastermind who will invent the deck that blows Jund out of the water.

[Nosauz]

most constructed decks build themselves unless their combo or super secret tech against the meta so constructed boils down to luck and the understanding of the meta, which seemingly favoring aggressive decks and less combo/control.