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View Poll Results: How should とある be read as? (Please only respond if you know Japanese!) | |||
To aru | 20 | 66.67% | |
Toaru | 10 | 33.33% | |
Voters: 30. You may not vote on this poll |
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Thread Tools |
2009-11-25, 16:37 | Link #1 |
Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Netherlands
Age: 45
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To aru or Toaru?
For a long while it seems the established romanization of とある was To aru (with space between "to" and "aru").
However, it seems ANN (Index / Railgun), AniDB (Index / Railgun), Wikipedia (article), AnimeNFO (Index / Railgun) and MyAnimeList (Index / Railgun) have all switched to Toaru as romanization for とある. My question, to those who are knowledgeable about this matter is: should AnimeSuki follow this trend or do they all have it wrong? Now I study Japanese myself, and my initial impression was that と (to) is a particle and 或る (aru) is a verb, and thus putting a space in between is acceptable. On the other hand, my electronic dictionary (Canon G55) and Jisho.org indicate とある can also be read as 1 (whole) word. So I'm a bit confused, although a I do lean towards the opinion the sites I mentioned earlier seem to have taken. A discussion about this topic can be found on the talk page of the old wiki article (before it was moved): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:To...jutsu_no_Index Note: this issue was brought to my attention by forum member Sxerks |
2009-11-25, 16:43 | Link #2 |
Knowledge is the solution
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 39
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と is a particle, ある is a verb, there is really no discussion or double standards about that. It's true that the to aru/to yomu/to iu grammar forms are quite common, however they remain two separate words regardless of their joint meaning.
However the confusion comes when it comes to romanization, since there is not a single standard out there. Technically, there are no spaces between Japanese words, so old Romanization standards often skipped spaces altogether and wrote everything in one string, or only wrote spaces between sentences, or wrote spaces wherever they wanted. AFAIK, some japanese people also do this when romanizing Japanese themselves. However, the most accepted standard in the Western community for romanization is to use a space between every single word, without regards whether they are part of the same paragraph/sentence/grammar construct.
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2009-11-25, 17:43 | Link #4 |
Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Netherlands
Age: 45
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Not really... check the Wikipedia page I mentioned - that is not exactly a "short discussion"
Proto put himself in the "To aru" camp, but I doubt he is the only AnimeSuki member with an opinion about this issue. Yes, the "to" particle used nearly everywhere else will be surrounded by spaces when romanized. This topic is about the specific case of "To aru". |
2009-11-25, 18:39 | Link #5 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
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If you take Japanese classes you will get the standard particle and verb education, though with most languages there are variations.
Many dictionaries also have it a one word, for example: ALC, and even an old dictionary Also, oddly used on the official project-index website But beyond that, it's usage and being at the beginning of a phrase point to a unique use. I would suggest reading the analysis in the last part of the wiki talk page for more info. |
2009-11-25, 19:43 | Link #6 |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 37
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I don't think being both a particle + a verb and being a single word are mutually exclusive. There are several compound words in English with similar etymologies. "Insofar" "another" "however" etc. If the phrase is consistently used with a very specific meaning then it's a word, regardless of its component parts. If nothing else, I would think that consistency is the most important part of romanization, so if everyone else is treating it as a single word we should too.
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2009-11-25, 19:54 | Link #8 |
Speaker
Join Date: Sep 2009
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I would have to agree with Clarste and others on the spelling of Toaru. While it's true that it is generally the standard to include a space between all words, and と and ある are in general separate words, one particle and one verb, the phrase とある constitutes a single word with a specific meaning, and should be romanized as Toaru accordingly.
Edit: This is actually similar to phrases like いってきます and いってらっしゃい. Despite being compound words, such as itte and kimasu, they are generally romanized as single words, ittekimasu and itterasshai, because they are set phrases with specific meanings.
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Last edited by Ansalem; 2009-11-25 at 20:08. |
2009-11-25, 20:37 | Link #9 | |
Knowledge is the solution
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 39
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Quote:
While we are in this topic, is there a word for To omou, for to iu, to yomu and the rest of the to + verb family or something?
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2009-11-25, 21:45 | Link #10 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Quote:
と思う, という, and と読む don't appear to have definitions as stand alone words, とある appears to be unique. The second definition on the ALC page points out that it is used to recall a particular thing being drawn out of memory, and to express that idea of recalling that place, and that it can most often be translated as "a" or "an", which also alludes to the idea that the literal translation "a certain" may not be the one intended (but that's a different discussion) |
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2009-11-26, 00:24 | Link #11 |
Portable Dude Mk. II
Artist
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: All ghillied up spying on someone ~2,000 yards away using telescope sights.
Age: 35
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... Even though the... uh, dictionary I have at hand tells me that the proper romanization would be Toaru (or so I think), I think I've been somewhat guilty (heh) for using the other romanization instead.
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2009-12-11, 20:43 | Link #13 | ||
The Owl of Minerva
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Quote:
I beg to disagree that romanization is completely separated from meaning, given that the Japanese language inherently has no space at all and the whole purpose of adding space in romanji is for improving clarity and facilitating understanding. But I digressed. Anyway, for the purpose of translation and romanization: when in doubt of anything, do a research on how other professionals deal with it. For the sake of consistency, it is certainly a better idea to follow the common practice instead of making new inventions every day. Quote:
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Last edited by Doraneko; 2009-12-11 at 20:55. |
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2010-01-02, 23:47 | Link #14 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
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It's been over a month now.
So as far as the discussion goes no one is backing "to aru" at this point, and all the material presented points to "toaru". For some reason people are "voting" in the poll the opposite way, which goes to show how reliable polls are. Non of those people are attempting to argue for what they voted for. Now that it's been logically vetted to "toaru", is it going to be corrected? Last edited by Sxerks; 2010-01-20 at 18:00. |
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