Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha Character Creation and Discussion (second reincarnation)

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by dkellis

The thing about feeling left out is because I can't point to any of my characters and go "look, this was a Mary Sue, but the OC thread helped me fix it". I've noticed that when a character gets Busted by the thread, it becomes somehow more memorable, with people bringing it up over and over again in the incessant flamewars which burst out due to something or other.

I can safely say that this isn't true. None of my OC's were concidered Mary Sues by the thread when I first introduced them, and they still aren't. None of my OC's ever needed fixing before they where 'acceptable'

I don't believe I'm exagerating when I say that my OC's are among the most popular of the thread. Some characters are even well know outside this thread, with people writing stories about them or loving them without ever having set foot into this thread. Heck, Syn/Vivio is currently the most popular Vivio pairing in the OC thread!

The most important thing to remember when writing characters, and more importantly, the stories involving those characters, is that people come to these forums because they love Nanoha. As ironic as it may sound, they like to read about the cast of Nanoha. What this means is that you don't want to write stories about your OC's, you want to write stories about your OC's interacting with the CC's. If you only place OC's in a story then eventually all the names will blur and the characters will become faceless. There is far less interesting to read because there is far less familiarity. If you write stories with the CC's in it, then people will recognise the places and people, they will have something to hold on to when reading your story.

Do note that all the well known OC's in this thread have intricate ties to CC's, either profesional, or personal.

Originally Posted by dkellis

Truth to tell, the comment was made as a side remark to a larger problem I have about this whole exercise in general. It all started with... I believe it was tshouryuu's remark about how labelling an OC as an Ace is near-immediate grounds for Mary Sue-ism.

Which was before the title of Ace became a more common term for 'a talented individual' I think.

Originally Posted by dkellis

Upon that, I set out creating an Ace character just to see if this was applicable in all cases. I don't usually create high-powered characters, because I don't feel confident in my abilities to provide a suitable setting for the characters to utilize their powers, and so I thought it would be a nice change of pace.

I asked, several times, what qualifies as an Ace, and I pushed her power levels as high as I felt comfortable with. I fully expected Lumina to have to be nerfed. Instead, I was told that she needed to be buffed.

You had virtually no powers surpassing the Aces, and you expected her to need nerfs? Just what profiles have you been reading here?

Originally Posted by dkellis

Since pushing the power levels didn't make Lumina a Mary Sue, I decided to push the backstory, and tried again with Mei. Angsty past, mysterious conspiracies, unconventional Device, the works. And now I'm told that she's an interesting character rather than a Mary Sue.

Her quirks are what makes her interesting, and after what we've seen, there are very few devices actually 'unconventional'

Originally Posted by dkellis

This is deeply worrying. I specifically set out to make Mary Sues twice, and both times were told that I failed in that endeavour. While this might seem to be beneficial ("DK can't make a Sue, so all his characters must be balanced!"), it highlights something which I have no idea how to solve:

I am not creative enough to come up with a Mary Sue even with active effort.

It's that mental barrier which worries me. After all, the most important thing about writing is to be able to write, to just set the words down, and then edit them later as needed, rather than second-guessing yourself all the time and ending up with nothing at all. This inability to create a Sue on demand implies a subconscious second-guessing mechanism in my mind, rendering me incapable of creating and thinking with wild abandon.

I am the sort of writer who writes spontaneously, running on raw inspiration when it strikes. I need to be able to think "with wild abandon", or I'll end up never writing anything.

Now you see why this worries me so much. Why can't I create a Mary Sue? What is it, in my mind, which prevents me from making one?

Your creativity.

Your OC's would have been Mary Sues, if not for the background that makes them so intriguing. You give them backgrounds that are deep, mysterious, or simply make you laugh. You try to overpower a character, yet give her a background that supports whatever power comes close to that point. You make a character with a cliche emo background, yet give her all sorts of personality quirks that make her interesting.

Mary Sues have backgrounds that are without creativity, have powers without justification. And quite frankly, are usually quite crappy characters. You simply are too creative.

To be honest, I still don't see why you are worried about the fact that you couldn't make a Mary Sue. I never made a Mary Sue myself, and I am perfectly happy with writing the way I do, with wild abandon. There are times when great deals of backgrounds for a character just come to me, like how my recent conversations with Jimmy_C sparked all sorts of different scenarios for my AMG OC to work with, or hom my mind is swirling with new ideas for my Negima OC. Writing with wild abandon doesn't mean you need to be able to create Mary Sues. Mary Sues have nothing to do with the abillity to write with Wild Abandon.

[Comartemis]

@Dk: What Kero said.

Now I may make Mary Sues without intending to every now and then but if I set out to actually try to make a sue, he/she'd probably come out looking more like a parody than anything else. Characters are kinda funny like that; for me at least, they never come out quite how I'd originally intended them to be, mainly because I keep switching ideas in the middle of the design. Just recently I switched Alex's character design from Gilgamesh over to a recolored Riku from Kingdom Hearts, then switched again to Mao from Disgaea 3 because Riku's bishonen appearance was rather at odds with Alex's simple-minded-thrill-seeker-blood-knight personality.

[Kha]

Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki

*Immune*

I didn't win the beta-test lottery . I merely asked a guildy who works at Blizz if he had any beta keys to spare

Oh, and DECULTURE!!

Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki

Gah! @_@

KURAE!!!

*bashes Eva with the [Murderizer's Murderizer of Relentless Murderizing]*

[Ryand-Smith]

Speaking of KHRACK... Mobile Fighter Lyrical Vivio

Spoiler for Vivio's Ultimate Techniques:

Ok, here goes.

Supreme Khrack

"So, these are the old Kaiser's weapons..." Nanoha looked at the report, the signs of belkan magic scrolling down the screen, as Hayate responded, "Yes, but, it seems that Vivio made some changes. She still uses attacks from all of us, but she made her own style, an aggressive form of support, to be frank. As the two Aces were focused on the belkan magic, Rein put on the S Rank Practice match, as Fate stretched, Vivio in the custom barrier jacket, the blue and white resembling her mother's own flight uniform, but with several drastic changes to the makeup.

It had pants, the pale white colors matching a pattern commonly seen in traditional stealth getups, as the belt seemed to have an extended blue blouse, tucked under a plain white belt. Her blue blouse let into white shoulders, which seemed to fall into a shortened, white upper arm, before the core of her device became clear. Large, overpowered hand guards, similar to Subaru's Mach Calibur covered both her hands, as yellow daggers waited for their moment, the two on each hand guard waiting for some sort of cue

"Fate-Momma, I'm going to show you why me and my General Fighter are worthy of the S rank"

The older mage laughed, as she simply replied, through telekentic means "Show me what we both taught you."

Nanoha smiled over the com, as she signaled the go ahead, the fight match starting with a bang. At first appearance, Vivio seemed stuck, the normally aerial fighter waiting on the ground, and Fate obliged her, her Photon Lancer firing a bolt from the blue at Vivio's form. The teenager smiled, as she placed up a round barrier, the bolt dissipating from view.

"Momma, at least give me a better fight than that," the teenager remarked, as the device said "Cartridge Load!" That cry was the one she needed, the magical flow rushing to her body, her confidence suddenly rising to amazing levels

"Left yourself open, Vivio-Chan" the Ace Enforcer reminded her, her device switched over to the riot form, the shortened dress a physical symbol of the Aces' strength, beauty, and fury
She quickly delivered a series of short and precise slices, each one alerting her to the weaknesses of the teenager's omnidriectional shield.

"Vivio, you can't just focus on defensive" the Ace consoled, as Vivio seemed to have a smile on her face.

"Nanoha, look, she's going to go for the attack I told you about, the finishing move from the book!"

"Mama, with my General Fighter," Vivio's right hand seemed to glow, as she silently thanked Subaru for the technique basis, the practice runs coming in handy.

"This hand of mine, glows with my own power! Its burning grip tells me to surpass you!"

Fate shifted her device to the Zamber form now, her own personal limiters released, "Well, then, I shall have to show you the way an Ace functions!" She took a massive swing, as Vivio seemed to rush forward, deftly evading the blade with the finesse of an ace flying mage...

"Mama, Here I go... Divine Forward... Finger!" The teenager seemed to have a burning pasion, as she attempted to go for the finisher, but the strike of the riot form blocked her assault, as Fate simply said,

"The way of a true S mage is not through mimics, it is through realizing that achieving the mission goal is not always glorious! But, since you managed to evade my Zamber form, I'll see if I can take you onto the next level.

Well, is this KHRACK WORTHY?

dkellis, its funny. I mean, your character is the anti-sue that the children's shows like to promote. With abilities that are hacks, but WORK. Sort of like the good guys on TV shows. Sure they have hacks, but they work, without the audience going "HAX!". That is the key to writing fun and entertaining fiction.

[Evil Rick]

Well, not posting here for a while XP

Now, the thing ahead is my Biorenders Project XD I will prtesent my OC in Renders showing the main info of them, I'll be glad if ghagskull could link the post ahead to page 1
I'll keep posting my OCs as usual and linking them to the post ahead

[LimitedEternal]

Originally Posted by dkellis

Ace attempt 1.0. Rip into it, please.

Spoiler for Lumina Celeste, the Unyielding Ace:

*snip*

EDIT: Added powers.

Originally Posted by dkellis

Updated with powers descriptions.



Technically she's not a Dumb Blonde, but just a bit slow on the uptake.

The entire reason for this OC is because I wanted to see how much a character which was explicitly described as an Ace should be hax-busted. Which is why I say: rip into it. Go wild.

From what I've gathered, this was basically an attempt to create a generic?

Can't say I think so. I find Lumina an entertainingly creative creation, and not at all overpowered.

Originally Posted by Kha

Difference is, I've always been playing. No regrets.

*raises hand*

BTW Kha, I hit 70 tonight. You've got some catching up to do!

Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw

Sage Wiseman say: Try too hard you do.

You're coming up with characters that are more entertaining than overpowered.

I concur...funny how that happens. :3

Originally Posted by Keroko

Which reminds me, Dk, what do you mean with feeling left out of the yelling? Do you mean that all we say is 'yes, that's a good character' to your characters or 'yes that's a good chapter' to your stories? Cause I seem to remember us literally ripping into your story centered around the Infinite Library.

You're not left out. When you stray, we yell at you. You just don't stray that much. Nothing wrong with that, heck, the only time I was yelled at was when I had my 'Keroko is a clone of the Saint King' routine, beyond that I've never been yelled at before when it came to my characters or stories.

^This.

I have no idea why anyone would want to "get yelled at," but I for one prefer to stay off the firing line...

Then again, I'm not exactly on the radar myself. *shrug*

Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki

*needs Northrend to be less laggy >_>*

You, assuming you're not lying just to get a rise, are one lucky, bloody, son-of-a-

*struggles to find an appropriate word, and settles for blowing something up*

Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki

*Immune*

I didn't win the beta-test lottery . I merely asked a guildy who works at Blizz if he had any beta keys to spare

...okay, that's just lame...

Originally Posted by Comartemis

I'd be extremely jealous if I were still playing WoW... but since I'm not...

YouWillReturnYouWillReturnYouWillReturnYouWillRetu rnYouWillReturnYouWillReturnYouWillReturnYouWillRe turn...

Originally Posted by dkellis

The ripping for the Infinite Library thing happened because of the concept, and after I reworked it, there was no comment whatsoever. No comments make me nervous, because it was the no comments which caused the problem in the first place. The concept was a straight canon contradiction, which doesn't require a lot of ripping, especially since I wasn't making an alternate fanon at the time.

The thing about feeling left out is because I can't point to any of my characters and go "look, this was a Mary Sue, but the OC thread helped me fix it". I've noticed that when a character gets Busted by the thread, it becomes somehow more memorable, with people bringing it up over and over again in the incessant flamewars which burst out due to something or other.

Any Publicity, and all that.

Truth to tell, the comment was made as a side remark to a larger problem I have about this whole exercise in general. It all started with... I believe it was tshouryuu's remark about how labelling an OC as an Ace is near-immediate grounds for Mary Sue-ism. Upon that, I set out creating an Ace character just to see if this was applicable in all cases. I don't usually create high-powered characters, because I don't feel confident in my abilities to provide a suitable setting for the characters to utilize their powers, and so I thought it would be a nice change of pace.

I asked, several times, what qualifies as an Ace, and I pushed her power levels as high as I felt comfortable with. I fully expected Lumina to have to be nerfed. Instead, I was told that she needed to be buffed.

Since pushing the power levels didn't make Lumina a Mary Sue, I decided to push the backstory, and tried again with Mei. Angsty past, mysterious conspiracies, unconventional Device, the works. And now I'm told that she's an interesting character rather than a Mary Sue.

This is deeply worrying. I specifically set out to make Mary Sues twice, and both times were told that I failed in that endeavour. While this might seem to be beneficial ("DK can't make a Sue, so all his characters must be balanced!"), it highlights something which I have no idea how to solve:

I am not creative enough to come up with a Mary Sue even with active effort.

It's that mental barrier which worries me. After all, the most important thing about writing is to be able to write, to just set the words down, and then edit them later as needed, rather than second-guessing yourself all the time and ending up with nothing at all. This inability to create a Sue on demand implies a subconscious second-guessing mechanism in my mind, rendering me incapable of creating and thinking with wild abandon.

I am the sort of writer who writes spontaneously, running on raw inspiration when it strikes. I need to be able to think "with wild abandon", or I'll end up never writing anything.

Now you see why this worries me so much. Why can't I create a Mary Sue? What is it, in my mind, which prevents me from making one?

I'm gonna be honest with you. Why do you want to make a Sue?

Is there some reason you feel the need to be able to make a generic? Moreover, why is that inability a bad thing? We're out to create things with flair and originality. From my point of view, intending to make something generic and happening to make something original is not a curse but a blessing.

I also think you're looking at this from the wrong angle: How are writing spontaneously and thinking "with wild abandon" mutually exclusive? Determining whether a character is a Sue is subjective anyway. One person's Sue can be another's new wave.

If you really tried, I imagine you could make something as utterly contrived as most of the garbage out there, but why do that when you can make originality on a whim?

Just my two cents, take it as you will. *tosses two pennies at dkellis*

[Liingo]

Originally Posted by dkellis

The thing about feeling left out is because I can't point to any of my characters and go "look, this was a Mary Sue, but the OC thread helped me fix it". I've noticed that when a character gets Busted by the thread, it becomes somehow more memorable, with people bringing it up over and over again in the incessant flamewars which burst out due to something or other.

In addition to Keroko's OCs, Aaron's Aurion is another which underwent very little busting who would be among the most recognisable OCs in the thread. The OC's which have gone under heavy busting are no where near as known as these OC's which have the strongest links to the CC. Something that I'm well aware of since I've been involved in busting the majority of OC's that have been posted up for discussion since the creation of the thread. Also the publicity that comes with the busting isn't exactly great for the creators either. One can just look at Comar (to a lesser extent ATC) with all the hassles that he's had to put up with just because his first few attempts at creating an OC were so far out there in terms of fitting in to the Nanohaverse that it's been tough going for him ever since.

I asked, several times, what qualifies as an Ace, and I pushed her power levels as high as I felt comfortable with. I fully expected Lumina to have to be nerfed. Instead, I was told that she needed to be buffed.

This probably comes from the issue that there wasn't anything in her spell list that screams out 'HAXX'. Defense and utility spells don't warrant the same alarm bells that attack spells do since it's canon that shields are capable of blocking spells that are higher in rank than the users rank (Yuuno v Vita). Rest assured that if we had been looking over Mina's spell list, whose background made her out to be a defensive specialist, and then something like Dragon Slave appeared the whole thread would have slammed you for it. Also the buffing of her list is probaly to do with us not seeing how she would win agaisnt the canon aces with her current spells, as she's going to be able to tank everything that's thrown at her, but to win she has to be able to attack back as well, but just with a B rank projectile, it doesn't look like this fight is going to be over anytime soon.

Since pushing the power levels didn't make Lumina a Mary Sue, I decided to push the backstory, and tried again with Mei. Angsty past, mysterious conspiracies, unconventional Device, the works. And now I'm told that she's an interesting character rather than a Mary Sue.

I'm probably not the best person to be asking about Sues, but I can see points in Mei's background that would typically count as Sue traits (orphan stumbles upon magic device and sets out on quest, etc). Like I said in my earlier post to you is that the way you've written and constructed your characters help to negate these Sue points by virtue of the personalities that you give your characters, as well as the flaws that are part of your characters.

I am not creative enough to come up with a Mary Sue even with active effort.

It's not that you're not creative enough, it's that you're too creative, such that the characters are likeable/lovable to a point that more or less everything of concern is given an explanation in their profiles, leaving only minor things to nitpick about.

-Liingo

[Kha]

Just to add on, I did learn that Sues are also have a lot of "been there, done that" and its not of the cliche kind, but the overpowered cliche kind.

Case study: putting Batman, Ironman, Centurions, Swat Kats, Variable Fighters, Paladins and Gundam into one package, then have an author with lesser literary skill and little originality who is rushing for time at the helm. Said author also lacks a sense of humor and finesse in language, but has instead a flair for the ludicrous.

Never mind said Sue's power levels were matched to the Aces, and would've resulted in a long dragged-out fight. Never mind the versatility was this Sue's way of being unique in the face of the short-lists that everyone else has. Verdict passed was Incorrigible Sue created by a William Hung, sentenced to life of purgation in holy fire, or at least lampooned in every scenario possible at every possible chance given by the thread. Without considering that the Sue was just a reflection of the other Sues called Aces.

Sues reflect an inability in the author, and those around the thread, not a flaw in the character. So if you are able, you yourself wouldn't be able to stand having created an atrocity and would've made the necessary changes to avoid so, there in by cushioning the impact.

Also, changing standards also hamper the evaluation. Take Incorrigible Sue again. This character was born during the Wild West, and rose to notoriety, but due to the setting, this villainous creation of abominable gaiety was just as popular as the honest sheriff or the fair maiden in the New World town being terrorized.

Then out of the horizons roars Master Chief along with a brevity of tanks, astride the three big guns of Sense, Sneer and Spam, running over everything in sight. The residents of the New World town welcomed the new colonists, but with the insipious nature of the invasion, the other White Devil demolished the town and replaced with a squeaky clean metropolitan, and the villain was boned the hardest.

Notice that the word Sue only appeared physically recently.

Edit: Geh turned into a rant. You could say the wake up call was much needed, but meh.

Originally Posted by LimitedEternal

*raises hand*

BTW Kha, I hit 70 tonight. You've got some catching up to do!

See why the rush? Not to mention I'm racing with a guild officer to 70 in the Shock Troops.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by LimitedEternal

I'm gonna be honest with you. Why do you want to make a Sue?

He kinda answered in his rant. From what I could gather, he was sort of having the impression that his characters are not being noticed unless 1. They are so overpowered that it is obscene; being a supernova whereas Hayate could be at most The Sun, 2. Related to everyone and having done everything in canon with little to no justification.

[Kha]

"Trace, on." Kha intoned, mana tearing through his arm and ripping clear the circuits within. They glowed through the etches on his flesh, all the way to his outstretched finger, where a swirling ball of condensed air jostled and spired.

"Flower of Wind ~Weapon Stripping~"

...
...
...



NO O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O!!!!!!!!!!!!

*dies from Khrack Attack*

[Keroko]

ah, I see you've reached the chapters where the disarming spells get used.

[Kha]

IN THE TOTALLY WRONG SENSE!!!!!

...wait.

I had this attack a while ago didn't I? Earlier chapter, previous thread maybe...? But I don't recall... Now why is there this sense of de javu...?

"Wang Liu Meng":

...

Oh and yes, I finally learned the power of Yue. No wonder she gained quite a fan-club while I was in the force (and cut off from scanlated manga. <_<)

Amongst other news, I've settled for totems as Kouya's Artificer Weapon (). Works well in representing the 5 elements, and because he can wear them as armor, they also have functions in worgen form. But most use would come in humanoid form, most notably stacking the 5 totem segments together to form a long hollow tube that works like a magical bazooka. I'm a genius!

[Liingo]

Originally Posted by Kha

(). Works well in representing the 5 elements, and because he can wear them as armor, they also have functions in worgen form. But most use would come in humanoid form, most notably stacking the 5 totem segments together to form a long hollow tube that works like a magical bazooka. I'm a genius!

5 elements?

Earth, Fire Wind Water and Heart?

By your powers combine, I am CAPTAIN PLANET!

[Kha]

Originally Posted by Liingo

5 elements?

Earth, Fire Wind Water and Heart?

By your powers combine, I am CAPTAIN PLANET!

I was thinking of the 5 Asian elements, since Kouya is an Asian sorcerer in the original script that I'm returning to.

But you made me realize that the first 4 are essentially the WoW elements, and you can tell by now Kouya's a Shaman... That leaves the explanation for Heart...

*imagines Kamo telling Kouya off about not using his 5th element, which leads to some perverted conversation about Keroko*

Khrack senses tingling.

You'll pay for this, Captain Planet. <_<

[kazenoyuuchi]

Originally Posted by Kha

Amongst other news, I've settled for totems as Kouya's Artificer Weapon (). Works well in representing the 5 elements, and because he can wear them as armor, they also have functions in worgen form. But most use would come in humanoid form, most notably stacking the 5 totem segments together to form a long hollow tube that works like a magical bazooka. I'm a genius!

Hmm...... 5 totems... can be worn as armor... stacks together as a magic bazooka...

Why on earth am I getting Shaman King vibes from this idea?

Originally Posted by Liingo

5 elements?

Earth, Fire Wind Water and Heart?

By your powers combine, I am CAPTAIN PLANET!

I fell off my chair laughing

[Kha]

It's just a minor similarity. Structurally and elementally, its a whole different ball game.

"We're the Planeteers. You can be 1 too!" >_>

[Evil Rick]

Maligno

Spoiler for Biorender:

Parca

Spoiler for Biorender:

[Estavali]

Originally Posted by Kha

I was thinking of the 5 Asian elements, since Kouya is an Asian sorcerer in the original script that I'm returning to.

But you made me realize that the first 4 are essentially the WoW elements, and you can tell by now Kouya's a Shaman... That leaves the explanation for Heart...

*imagines Kamo telling Kouya off about not using his 5th element, which leads to some perverted conversation about Keroko*

Khrack senses tingling.

You'll pay for this, Captain Planet. <_<

Kha, if you're using Warcraft settings, the fifth would be the Spirit of the Wild, as mentioned in the Lord of the Clans novel.

And given Kouya's bestial connections (unless I got stuff mixed up again ), this should work well for him (and you ).

[Kha]

Originally Posted by Estavali

Kha, if you're using Warcraft settings, the fifth would be the Spirit of the Wild, as mentioned in the Lord of the Clans novel.

And given Kouya's bestial connections (unless I got stuff mixed up again ), this should work well for him (and you ).

Wow I didn't know about THAT. Thanks for the heads up!

After digging WoWwiki, I found this 5th Element:

"The Spirit of the Wilds

The Spirit of the Wilds is most nebulous and complex of the spirits of the wilds. In fact, no one is entirely certain of what the Wilds represent. It seems to embody the living souls of all living things, from the most humanoids, to animals to plants and even stones. The Wilds is by far the best friend and greatest enemy of the shaman; the Wilds can heal broken bodies and even restore beings to life... but only if it suits the balance. It is the Wilds that can make the shaman think he is a god - and show him that he's still mortal."

See what I highlighted. Now link that to the embodiment of the living souls of pretty much everything.

What is the seat of the soul? The Heart. And what else apart from time can heal all wounds? Love.

With this brainwave, I might be twisting the concept to my means (), but it sure smells like a "power-up" twist for Kouya, something along the lines of:

"Any accomplished shaman could call on the spirits of Earth, Fire, Wind and Water; but master the 5th element, and you will become a master in your own right."

And he then discovers what it means, and what it entails to command this power to the fullest. Sure gives me a lot of room for the "Ai no Chikara" symbolism that I'm so fond of as an author.

Once again, thanks for this brilliant heads-ups! I got quite a few ideas out of this, and while I'll retain the mention of the 5 elemental spirits as they are, I'm also going to take a combination as a basis for the Negiha 5th element. After all, "Every world has its own elements, its own powers to call upon." Even more so, with the twisted world of Negiha.

What do you all think?

[Estavali]

I'm working on a shamanic/elementalist system myself, so a suggestion I would make, or rather echo from Drek'thar's teachings to Thrall, is that the shaman does not "master" the elements as how one would master a beast (which they are far from being). Rather he honors them and proves his worthiness for their assistance. For another Warcraft example, Thrall's initiation into the shaman's path was a humbling experience; instead of feeling puffed up by the powers which he was allowed to call on, he found himself humbled by their presences.

Also, you might like to take into consideration that the forces of Nature might not necessarily share human morals and sentiments. The Spirits may sympathise with the shaman's lost of a loved one, but do not expect them to break or bend the rules just because he begs them to do so. Even G-D's miracles work under the laws of physics.

My 2 cents =3