2011-10-12, 17:31 | Link #101 |
鷹王 (Hawk King/King Hawk)
Join Date: Oct 2011
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Damn your smart :P
Well that brings up another point, if Sasuke is still killing enemies of the leaf, is he still indirectly fighting for the leaf? If you see it the same way I do, then he is is the only proactive character. He isn't doing anything the way it was done by anyone else. You called Naruto a revolutionary, but Sasuke is the revolutionary in my view. This is mainly because "revolution" means: radically new or innovative; outside or beyond established procedure, principles. Naruto as I've said is a reactive character, doing as instructed, believing in the thoughts of his sensei, fighting for the peace his father and sensei wanted, going after Sasuke because of his promise to Sakura, in other words he is not innovative, or outside established procedure in this sense. Sasuke on the other hand he left his village, joined a taboo group, left the taboo group, killed his brother because he was mad at him for killing his clan, created a new group(hien), decided to attack his home village (which is not what anyone else wanted, nor his brother). And all this info adds to the list. Didn't mean to argue, but this is how conversations start :P
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2011-10-13, 08:33 | Link #102 |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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Both Naruto and Sasuke are reactive characters.
Sasuke wants to kill everyone he believes is responsible for making Itachi wipe out his entire clan (Which to him is basically everyone in Konoha). And Naruto wants no more bad guys and bad things to happen as well as to bring back his friend from the dark side. None of them have any plan whatsover just a mission set in stone and determination to back it up. It's Madara/tobi who is the revolutionary and who has the plans and is changing the world. The same can be said about Nagato/Yahiko before Madara distorted their views/plans. Also Kabuto can be seen as a revolutionary, though not as much as Tobi. Basically the main chars are pretty boring character wise, that's also why they get a lot of heat. Last edited by mrShady; 2011-10-13 at 12:10. |
2011-10-14, 14:24 | Link #103 |
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hidden Village of Sake
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Being a revolutionary and being a good guy are almost completely different things, for example the french or the soviet revolutions had introduced "terror" as a means of achieving change. In particular the soviets have killed millions of people, more than the 2nd world war, they created an "evil" system which ruled by fear and terror. Naruto is a good guy, he would never want to change the system by "terror", while Sasuke doesn't want to change the system, he just wants to destroy and doesn't care what happens with the people.
About "acting" and "reacting": Sasuke is always reacting, he is never in control of what happens to him, he doesn't even have any meaningful goal in life now, he just wants to kill people. Naruto in most cases was "reactive", however just remember when he didn't kill Nagato, he chose to not react to Nagato's acts, he chose to let him go. At that moment naruto was "acting". Sure in most of the other situation Naruto seems to only react, but it's not because he doesn't want to do things his own way, but because he is either too weak or too stupid to take control. Naruto was always an "acting" character, remember how he said he will change the Hyuuga for Neji, he instinctively wants to change the rules, but he was either too stupid or too weak until recently to do any change. One thing is the way of thinking and another is the achievments. Naruto is thinking like a true revolutionary but he doesn't have too many revolutionary achievments yet because he was either weak or stupid to succeed. Sasuke's thinking was never revolutionary, if he ever achieved something that can be called revolutionary then it is pure coincidence. Of course the coincidence if not random, Kishimoto set things up to happen like this While Naruto's revolutionary achievments are not many and important to the world, he already has some quite nice achievments: - he didn't kill Nagato, as a result Nagato resurrected all the killed konoha people - changed not only Neji's thinking about the main branch of Hyuuga and "fate", but also Hinata's father's thinking - changed Chiyo's way of thinking, she gave up her life to resurrect Gaara - changed Gaara, as a result he because kazekage and konoha's best ally - changed Tsunade's and Jiraiya's way of thinking - etc. Sure these are minor achievments that shouldn't even be called "revolutionary", but i think these achievments all show about Naruto's way of thinking that is all about changing the world. When i complained about Naruto not being a revolutionary i was not complaining about his way of thinking, but about the events that happened after the Pain-invasion. At that time Naruto didn't do anything, he went on to an island to count animal penises instead of fighting, but recently Kishimoto changed all this and Naruto is back and kicking ass. For now he is just "reacting", that is fighting in the war, but later on you will see him changing the world. About Sasuke: I think you should think about 2 Sasukes here: the pre-Madara Sasuke and the post-Madara Sasuke. Before Madara mindwashed him Sasuke was a good guy, he even ordered Suigetsu not to kill people, he did destroy Orochimaru's prisons and free the prisoners, he called Orochimaru disgusting like Itachi when he rebelled against him. In my opinion he was a good guy. He had a sense of morality, in his mind the Leaf village were the good guys and people like Orochimaru and Itachi the bad guys. But when Madara told him the truth his world collapsed, it turned out that Itachi was a good guy and the konoha leaders the bad guys. Sasuke lost the base of his morality, at that point with his messed up mind he invented his new way of thinking. And while following his new way of thinking he became more and more "evil", we can see that looking at how he treated his own team. At the begining of his transformation he fights KillerBee: he still cares about Karin and his team, but later when he fights the kages he doesn't care about his team, and finally against Danzou: he almost kills Karin. |
2011-10-14, 14:40 | Link #104 | |
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So he is and is not a revolutionary. I agree on your excellent Sasuke "assessment" |
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2011-10-14, 15:22 | Link #105 | |
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Location: Hidden Village of Sake
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I agree that he never seeked the problems, he just encountered them. But he was a child, unaware of how the world worked and also too weak and stupid to act. But now he is growing up slowly. But now that we discuss this, we probably should not think that being a revolutionary means these people "act" and do not "react". Every revolution is a reaction, people rebel against a bad system, thats reacting to the oppression. It's difficult to make a clear difference between acting and reacting. |
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2011-10-15, 08:54 | Link #106 | ||
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Napoleon is a great example of revolutionary. He took (partial) leadership of the French revolution and changed France and even Europe forever, by fighting but also with the introduction of new systems and laws. However this is just a manga and we can hardly ask of Kishi to give Naruto's character such a realistic view of being a true revolutionary. But I wouldn't mind a more active part for Naruto "the revolutionary" in the near future. |
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2011-10-15, 14:16 | Link #107 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2004
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Even in more serious manga like Death Note the main character dies at the end, and it is made clear that he has to be the evil guy and therefore he has to die. Something that might be more to your taste is Watchmen, there the guy named Ozymandias not only changes the world but also saves it, but his plan and the execution of it is evil. But still he gets away with it in the end. But it's difficult to say that he didn't "react", since they were facing the end of the world and he had to do something. But you can make another comparison: compare Naruto to Jesus as it was done many chapters ago. Sure this Jesus guy who was a poor man who apparently didn't achieve anything in his life, other than having a few disciples, has had a huge impact on the world. What i mean is that starting a "revolution" doesn't necessarily mean figthing and killing. Naruto doesn't have to kill people like Danzou to become a revolutionary, the author just needs to make him extremely lucky so that he never gets into such situations And this war is Naruto's luck, the dirty work is being done by Madara and Kabuto |
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2011-10-15, 14:35 | Link #108 |
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Napoleon was just an example (I really should have used Ghandi, Nelson Mandela or Martin luther King ).
There is always a way to revolutionize the world in a "good" way but they don't succeed very often or it isn't flashy enough which wouldn't sell well. |
2011-11-05, 06:35 | Link #109 |
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Join Date: May 2011
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I quite like this arc.
It does not look like war battles and it is more shinobi one-on-one battle like other combats in Naruto, but there are some good ideas. I particularly like the combat between Hanzo and Shifune. Ginkaku and Kinkaku were "different" but interesting. I liked the idea of the curse. Since we have Madara vs. Kage and soon, Itachi vs. Kabuto, Naruto and Bee vs. Tobi (or maybe not Sasuke will arrive) I really wonder if each of these fights will have a conclusive outcome. Let's see what happens, it is difficult to predict the flow of events, because it is easily broken by something new and unknown. I am more interested in what of the past still unkonwn to us will be revealed. I think the introduction of Ginkaku anf Kinkaku has a purpose to show that Tobi is the origin of them. More generally, it may be revealed that Tobi is the origin of every World Shinobi War. I wonder if we will get a flashback on Kabuto's past as well as Orochimaru's and Anko's past. If so, Kabuto could "die" and let his body to Orochimaru's soul?? More backstory about Senju? We still need one or two chapters about Senju fighting Madara like we got for Kyuubi against Yondaime. And also how Senju died. I think Kakuzu is still here, so we can get some flashback. It is still obscure to me why Shodaime is the only one of his family to be able to do the Mokuton. Actually, is Senju really the descendant of the Sage? Maybe it is the Uzumaki family that is the more direct descendant. I wonder if Dan's presence will be the trigger for more backstory on Tsunade. I require more backstory on some characters especially Bee's trainees and the Mizukage. There are still some unfinished side stories.Will we have an explanation? I still want to know what happened to Rin And we will know who Tobi is for sure Last edited by MeroBAKA; 2011-11-05 at 14:03. |
2011-11-09, 00:20 | Link #110 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
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its actually a rip from the original dragonball episode 79 if anyone is interested... I'm not complaining, I actually like ginkaku and kinkaku and like many naruto fights it's based on old dragonball fights. this particular one was a little too similar imo though
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2011-11-21, 21:51 | Link #113 | |
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2011-12-09, 14:42 | Link #114 |
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: north carolina
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my problem with this ninja war is the fact that tobi is kinda right in some respects. at the summit when the kages got on there soapbox and told him they would not give up killerbee or naruto to fulfill tobi plan to create peace. well lets be real here, it wasnt like the kaga were seconds away from real peace in the ninja world. they spend most of there time fighting each other about what to do. the kages are kind of hyocrites. it wasnt until bee was in trouble that the raikage got off his butt to call a meeting, to deal with the akatuski. until the kage stop careing about just there own people, there is never going to be peace. every kage has played a part in this since the begining, whether they wanted to or not. all kages first concern has been there villiage so they have all had a hand in it. the kages have had years to unite and bring peace. but lust for power and fear of others power have been there weakness. tobi knows this he ask them what have you kage done, in regards to world peace nothing and that is the fact of it. it is easy to put down tobi and say what you shouldnt do, the question tobi puts to the kage is what have you done because we havent seen any peace for all yet. naruto is going to change that. it was hinted at when he asked to cancel the kill order on sasuke, kakashi said that naruto cares about more than just his own people if war were to break out. my point is the kages have been as much as the problem here as tobi. and that includes the past kages as well.
Last edited by 23 gundam fan; 2011-12-09 at 14:55. |
2011-12-09, 15:32 | Link #115 |
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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Akatsuki wars is one of my favorite scene in Naruto. I've seen in this scene that how they cooperate to stop Akatsuki on what they are doing. It is nice to see that they are eager to stop the Akatsuki. Shikamaru is the best. He is so intelligent and i love the way he think. He is the best team leader.
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2012-06-08, 04:18 | Link #116 |
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Rereading the edo madara fight and onooki starts going off about uniting the smaller villages bla bbla bla, I wonder if the other villages are even aware that there is a war going on lol
It would have been cool to see some other kage help the alliance or even side with Tobi...
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2012-07-14, 18:06 | Link #117 | |||
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I wonder how Sasuke will change the battles line-ups. He is still destined to fight Naruto after the frog's predictions. Since I believe that most likely Tobi has Madara's body, I find that scenario a little too convenient just when Tobi awakens the statue with 9 bijuus. Tobi will transfer into the heretical statue and Madara can get back his body. It is too straightforward :P I remember Tsunade wanted to use Yondaime's technique against Madara, we have yet to see it, if I am not mistaken. Quote:
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What will happen to the rest of the army? Will they have a role against Tobi or Madara? Will they still fight the Zetsu? Last edited by MeroBAKA; 2012-07-15 at 04:46. |
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