thoughts on younger kakashi

[BrokenWingz]

I think the key word is priorities
back then misson#1 friends-last
now-friends#1 mission#2

[MobiuS]

Originally Posted by Hunter

You can be young and experienced and obviously you can be young and Jounin as you can be young and a cold psychopathe like Itachi or already perverted like Jiraiya.
That has nothing to do with being young or not.

Obviously there are young and experienced people. Zabuza is an example. But the TYPICAL young person is not experienced. When people refer to young, they refer to your beginning stages. Some people mature when their age mates are still young. Thats why its easier to assume Sasuke is older upon seeing them in class. Not because he looks oolder than Naruto, but because he acts more "grown-up". He doesnt act YOUNG <-- childish.

Originally Posted by Hunter

Spoiler:

Kakashi would always be pressed between his team and his mission in such case.
He didn't think that his friends were unimportant back then and doesn't think that his missions don't matter now

The only difference is that he believed the mission more important than anything before whereas he thinks his friends are more important now.
The only thing which changed are his priorities, not the interest of the missions.

Spoiler:

Actually, he didnt think much of teammates. He didnt like Obito. He was going to leave Rin (Ren? whatever the medic's name was) to get killed while he completed his missions. He didnt think twice about it till Obito started whining.

Originally Posted by Hunter

We do know exactly what kind of decision Kakashi would take right now. Those who don't take care of their comrades are worse than trash remember?

Yes. We know he will eventually save the comrades. But d'you know how he will do it and still meet the objective? Maybe you always do. I dont. Thats what keeps me watching. Like the 1st Zabuza encounter. How was he gna protect the old man AND the kids? I didnt know till I started seeing him bust out Sharingan moves. Water Clones. Hypnotic Suggestions. Damn ..

[drunkenlotus]

I do believe that this thread will need to tag its title soon.

Originally Posted by MobiuS

Obviously there are young and experienced people. Zabuza is an example. But the TYPICAL young person is not experienced. When people refer to young, they refer to your beginning stages. Some people mature when their age mates are still young. Thats why its easier to assume Sasuke is older upon seeing them in class. Not because he looks oolder than Naruto, but because he acts more "grown-up". He doesnt act YOUNG <-- childish.

You're both right. And you were also debating 2 arguments that have little to do with one another lol.

Hunter is saying that there were obviously exceptions to your stereotype, Mobius. However, what you're saying as a general statement holds true. To be "young" will usually imply inexperience, ineptitude, naivte, etc. You call someone a kid when they act stupidly or immaturely. You get the idea.

But...about Kakashi..I think that now he places his teammates and his friends ahead of the mission. This is what he's learned from his past, and why he commented on Shikamaru's conceding in the Chuunin exam.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by drunkenlotus

You're both right. And you were also debating 2 arguments that have little to do with one another lol.

Hunter is saying that there were obviously exceptions to your stereotype, Mobius. However, what you're saying as a general statement holds true. To be "young" will usually imply inexperience, ineptitude, naivte, etc. You call someone a kid when they act stupidly or immaturely. You get the idea.

But...about Kakashi..I think that now he places his teammates and his friends ahead of the mission. This is what he's learned from his past, and why he commented on Shikamaru's conceding in the Chuunin exam.

As a matter fact, what he's saying isn't even generaly true... in Naruto.

We are talking in a world were 12 years old is the normal age to be a solider for your village, where children are taught being killing weapons, where they are taugh to never show any feeling and where 11-15 years old kids are commanding troups.

Naruto remains childish but he's rather an exception and even him isn't quite as inexperienced as MobiuS seems to think.

Anyway it's not even really the point discussed here.

Spoiler:

Rin and Obito were Kakashi's best friend, that's why Obito's death means so much for him to begin with and why finally he broke all his beliefs to save Rin in the end.

[MobiuS]

Youre clearly irrational and an idiot to boot. Did you ever think the maturity age in Naruto is lower than real life?
The YOUNGER you are .. the more inexperienced you are. Its the general formula for anyone. SOme people mature faster than others, but everyone was more inexperienced and naive WHEN THEY WERE YOUNGER.

Spoiler:

So he had Rin as primary objective in his mind when she got kidnapped? Thats the best-friend treatment? Obito's death means much to him for 2 reasons.
1.) Obito was the one who knocked sense into him and changed him. Isnt it logical for his death to mean much to him? If Obito died routinely in the mission, Obito would have meant as much as a kunai to Kakashi. Obito was a failure (till the last minute).

2.) Rin meant the world to him thats why he was willing to go on the mission with Obito when she got kidnapped in front of his two eyes.

[Nubixkube]

Mobius, by calling other people names, you just make yourself look stupider than you already are.

Spoiler:

Kakashi was obviously very experienced at his young age, even before he obtained the sharigan.

I mean after all he was promoted to be a jounin, and you don't get to be a jounin by being immature, or even a Chuunin given Naruto as an example.

Now again, you could argue that it was a time of war and they promoted ninja to ranks they didn't quite have the qualifications for, but still Kakashi was the same rank as the future Hokage, to call him inexperienced is cheating the reputation of Yondie.

Kakashi was quite an experienced ninja who was successful at his missions, despite his young age.

Also Mobius, make sure to read the rules about your signatures. You're not making yourself look any smarter.

[Hunter]

Youre clearly irrational and an idiot to boot. Did you ever think the maturity age in Naruto is lower than real life?
The YOUNGER you are .. the more inexperienced you are. Its the general formula for anyone. SOme people mature faster than others, but everyone was more inexperienced and naive WHEN THEY WERE YOUNGER.

Which isn't what I said to begin with.

Then what you wrote in spoiler tags is still completely beside the point, that's incredible that you're not even able to understand the meaning of the word "priorities".

Originally Posted by Nubixkube

Mobius, by calling other people names, you just make yourself look stupider than you already are.

Honestly I don't think he can do that.

[EadTaes]

Originally Posted by MobiuS

Youre clearly irrational and an idiot to boot. Did you ever think the maturity age in Naruto is lower than real life?
The YOUNGER you are .. the more inexperienced you are. Its the general formula for anyone. SOme people mature faster than others, but everyone was more inexperienced and naive WHEN THEY WERE YOUNGER.

Spoiler:

So he had Rin as primary objective in his mind when she got kidnapped? Thats the best-friend treatment? Obito's death means much to him for 2 reasons.
1.) Obito was the one who knocked sense into him and changed him. Isnt it logical for his death to mean much to him? If Obito died routinely in the mission, Obito would have meant as much as a kunai to Kakashi. Obito was a failure (till the last minute).

2.) Rin meant the world to him thats why he was willing to go on the mission with Obito when she got kidnapped in front of his two eyes.

Spoiler:

Also don't forget that Obito was his bestfriend and that Obito died savaing Kakashi. It's teh afct that hsi bestfriend saved him by giving away his life that mad ehim realise that others were important. and then the Rin kidnaping was also a major factor. But the real turning point wa sindeed Obitos death.

[MobiuS]

Originally Posted by EadTaes

Spoiler:

Also don't forget that Obito was his bestfriend and that Obito died savaing Kakashi. It's teh afct that hsi bestfriend saved him by giving away his life that mad ehim realise that others were important. and then the Rin kidnaping was also a major factor. But the real turning point wa sindeed Obitos death.

Spoiler:

So when he chose Rin and Obito over his mission, what made that change in personality?

[MobiuS]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Which isn't what I said to begin with.

Then what you wrote in spoiler tags is still completely beside the point, that's incredible that you're not even able to understand the meaning of the word "priorities".


Honestly I don't think he can do that.

2 things.

1.) I know that isnt what you said. But that has been my point. A younger Kakashi is a more inexperienced one. Having Sharingan and attaining Joinin status makes him more matured. Clearly not a young one anymore. The request for more Kakashi missions when he was younger logically means before the Sharingan or that particular mission. Which warranted my original comment.

2.) If you havent realized by now that the arguments we have both been making in the spoilers are arguments different but related to the outside one .. to protect specific information from random individuals trolling the forum ... I have no comment. My spoiler replies to your spoiler. My outside comment replies to your outside comment. Was that so hard to follow?

[MobiuS]

Originally Posted by Nubixkube

Mobius, by calling other people names, you just make yourself look stupider than you already are.

Spoiler:

Kakashi was obviously very experienced at his young age, even before he obtained the sharigan.

I mean after all he was promoted to be a jounin, and you don't get to be a jounin by being immature, or even a Chuunin given Naruto as an example.

Now again, you could argue that it was a time of war and they promoted ninja to ranks they didn't quite have the qualifications for, but still Kakashi was the same rank as the future Hokage, to call him inexperienced is cheating the reputation of Yondie.

Kakashi was quite an experienced ninja who was successful at his missions, despite his young age.

Also Mobius, make sure to read the rules about your signatures. You're not making yourself look any smarter.

Spoiler:

Read my posts and think carefully before you type.
Kakashi is mature at an age when others are not. The maturity age in Naruto is far lower than in real life. What we would consider young and naive is probably already mature for them. So "younger" Kakashi would logically not refer to him at age 11 or 10 like it would real life, but to age 5 or 6 as that is the maturity age in Naruto.

Er .. I dont have a problem with my signature. WHy change it? xris deleted my sig when I added text under it. I dont feel the need to change it as of yet so I dont. When Im ready to change it to something else I want, Ill do it. And last I checked, noone had a problem with it. Only you.

[EadTaes]

Originally Posted by MobiuS

Spoiler:

So when he chose Rin and Obito over his mission, what made that change in personality?

He realised what they ment to him and acted on it. Instead fo ignoring his feelings he embraced them. Because feelings do make u stronger and he found that out as well.

Basicly:
If u fight with your heart and sould, not just with ur mind and body, you can do prety much anything, even the impossible.

[MobiuS]

There you go.

Spoiler:

He realized after Obito yelled at him and spoke cold facts. Not after Obito's death.

[EadTaes]

Originally Posted by MobiuS

There you go.

Spoiler:

He realized after Obito yelled at him and spoke cold facts. Not after Obito's death.

Yeah but words alone do not last long if one does not experience the meaning of them. Thus death of Obito is the point at wich Kakashi was changed for good.

[MobiuS]

Originally Posted by EadTaes

Yeah but words alone do not last long if one does not experience the meaning of them. Thus death of Obito is the point at wich Kakashi was changed for good.

Spoiler:

I agree there. Theres a high chance that if he saved them and failed the mission, he would have felt more like his father. And thus gone back to the old Kakashi. Obito's death was more like a final stamp on the deal. The initial catalyst though, was Obito's yelling.

Obito's cold truth made him awaken and change his act. Obito's death was a final seal not allowing him to go back on his word.

[kheldorin]

Given his family history and tragedy, his unique teammate, a possible romance, having a sensei who's gonna be Hokage and living in a wartime period, I'll say Kakashi's childhood is not lame and certainly not boring.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by MobiuS

2 things.

1.) I know that isnt what you said. But that has been my point. A younger Kakashi is a more inexperienced one. Having Sharingan and attaining Joinin status makes him more matured. Clearly not a young one anymore. The request for more Kakashi missions when he was younger logically means before the Sharingan or that particular mission. Which warranted my original comment.

2.) If you havent realized by now that the arguments we have both been making in the spoilers are arguments different but related to the outside one .. to protect specific information from random individuals trolling the forum ... I have no comment. My spoiler replies to your spoiler. My outside comment replies to your outside comment. Was that so hard to follow?

If you know that it isn't what I said then why quoting my post and not answering it? But anyway it wasn't even your point to begin with.

Your point was that Kakashi's childhood was lame because he must have had monotonous and boring missions.
A side point of that was Kakashi not being young anymore because he gained the Sharingan and became a Jounin.

Spoiler:

I already adressed quite enough times why you had no idea about Kakashi's past missions but let's start again given that you didn't get it.

You say that Kakashi didn't think of Obito and Rin as best friend because he thought that the mission was more important than them.
This is simply completely false and the reason why I said you don't understand the meaning of the word priorities.
Kakashi thought of them as friend, if he didn't he wouldn't have changed his whole view of the world and finally letting aside his mission to return saving them.
But he thought that Ninja rules were more important than friendship, in fact he thought that those rules were more important than anything given that breaking them was what brought shame to his father and leaded him to suicide.

Before he changed his mind he could have tried to save his comrades from opponents if that meant not jeopardizing the mission.
Now he would do the opposite, trying to accomplish the mission while not jeopardizing the live of his beloved ones.
But fact remains that a dilemma would rise for both state of mind the only changement being the premises :
-Mission > Comrades in the first case
-Comrades > Mission in the second.

Btw Obito's speech wasn't about cold facts, cold fact was Kakashi's past mindset.
Obito's was about warm friendship and his words finally passed through Kakashi's obstination because of what Rin and Obito meant for him.
Had they meant nothing for him he would have resumed the mission alone.

Now about youth.
You said that to have the Sharingan and to be a Jounin matured him.
Firstly it's the way around, it's the the story behind his obtention of the Sharingan which matured him, and he was chosen as a jounin because he was mature enough despite his young age.
But that's the point, despite his young age. Your rank doesn't suddenly change your age and maturity isn't the same word as young.

[MobiuS]

Wow.

1.) I said Kakashi had boring missions when he was younger because we know he picks mission over team. He never looked worried about accomplishing a mission even after losing a teammate.

The argument about young was to secure my point that when someone had referred to "young" they were referrign to pre-Obito missions.

Spoiler:

You know no such thing. When Rin got kidnapped, he didnt make a iota of effort to save her till Obito yelled at him.

We can theorize safely that this would be his attitude in other missions pre-Obito. Correct?

Now he worries about completing missions WHILE worryign about team safety and keeping them alive. No such luck pre-Obito. If it wasnt part of his mission, he didnt care. Such as Rin's well-being. Till he realized how much she meant to him.

ABout the Cold Fact / Warm Feeling ... its obvious you are just nitpicking random little details. Obito told him that friends and team matter much more than the mission. That was the idea. I considered it cold fact simply because its the truth Kakashi didnt want to accept clearly because of his father's fate. You call it warm feeling / friendship / whatever. Its still referrign to the same concept and the words cold/warm are not translated literally here. Just metaphors.

And he had continued to mission alone till he realized how much Rin has done for him. Thats when he went back. Also in addition to Obito's yelling, of course.

Also:

Mission over Comrade (which he didnt show too much care for) - does not have the pressure mentally as comrade over mission. Take a look at when Rin got kidnapped. He just turned around and told Obito that they should keep going.

Comrade over Mission - we see this when he has a change of heart after Obito's yelling and his realization that Rin meant a lot to him. Thats when hes torn between mission and comrade. He picked comrade, and now we are all wondering if he will manage to stop the Jounins as well as save Rin.

Rank doesnt change age. But age does not necessarily refer to your maturity level. You can be mature relative to people around you and still be younger.

Maturity doesnt have a direct correlation with young, but the connection is obvious.

1.) If you are young, you are generally accepted to be immature.
2.) If you are mature, people will identify it regardless of age.

Young individuals are typically not as mature as older ones. Kakashi is an exclusion since he matured fast due to his youth and his father's story. However a younger Kakashi is logically less mature than an Older one. You mature as you grow older.

Therefore a Kakashi younger than Obito-Rin is more immature than a Kakashi after Obito-Rin.

[cuttups]

I think its interesting that Kakashi got to be a Jounin without developing any techniques other than Chidori, and even then it was right as he was becoming a Jounin.

They say that is his only original technique and he became a Jounin before actually using it a lot. Was he just good at other people's techniques or something?

[EadTaes]

Creating new techniques doesnt make u a genius only. They ar eotehrs way to becoem a genius. Like combining techniques or planing 10 move ahead of your opponent.

Examples: From the chunin exams
Naruto: and his combining of jutsus that totaly had kiba fooled and Neji to.
Shikamaru: and his planing 200 moves ahead from what he states in the manga

And Kakashi has provent to be able to mix skills and plan ahead.