[Jap-Manga] Claymore Statistics, Power Levels, and Theories

[King Lycan]

I was thinking about this and im going to create a "Bonus Round" because I'm bored
*Ding Ding Ding*

Round One

Undine Vs Sophia{in Terms of Strength and Yoki}

Sophia: No.4 (175 CM Tall)
Yoki: B
Strength: A+

Undine: No.11 (175 CM Tall)
Yoki: C
Strength: A

As u see Sophia is stronger in Yoki and Strength which is pretty weird because u see super strong looking Undine and her huge muscular self and it was all a fluke

[khryoleoz]

If we accept that the general tendency of things is to progress, then we should be able to expect Clare's generation to be better than Teresa's. In most cases, yes we do find this to be true...except where it concerns the numbers 1 and 2, Teresa and Priscilla, who are arguably on a league of their own. I hold a different view with numbers 3 and 5 however.

Irene vs Galatea, I argue that Irene is stronger overall. Teresa's most powerful asset is not yet Galatea's from what we've seen. Until then, Galatea's B+ over Irene's B in strength is a less significant advantage than Irene's A over Galatea's B (an entire letter grade being the difference) in agility. In short, Irene's Quicksword alone would dominate anything Galatea can throw at her. And if Irene's strong mental powers are any indication, the yoki manipulation trick is rendered impotent at the start.

The number five in Clare's generation was a previous generation's number 2. Noel is no fair comparison whatsoever to Raphaela. Who we probably need to compare Noel with is Miria, who would have held the number 5 position had the circumstances of Raphaela been different. These two are very close to each other, but Miria has the edge in where it counts by having a stronger yoki output and a proven tactical ability.

Ophelia on the other hand is a monster herself, surpassing even Galatea in yoki, agility, and strength. Save for her mental stability and sensing, she is on Raphaela's level, which is strong indeed.

[Gooral]

Originally Posted by khryoleoz

(...)However, I suspect that Teresa in her lower state was still more powerful than Alicia in her awakened state, or if not more powerful then at least still more effective a combatant.

I totally agree, what I meant when writing "Alicia is the strongest warrior MiB ever had" was that MiB had at their disposal 0% Teresa only. I thought it was obvious but thanks for pointing that out, Fenrir or other Miria fan wouldn't interpret my words correctly.

Now we have to wait untill Wall of Text arrives .

[King Lycan]

Originally Posted by khryoleoz

If we accept that the general tendency of things is to progress, then we should be able to expect Clare's generation to be better than Teresa's. In most cases, yes we do find this to be true...except where it concerns the numbers 1 and 2, Teresa and Priscilla, who are arguably on a league of their own. I hold a different view with numbers 3 and 5 however.

Irene vs Galatea, I argue that Irene is stronger overall. Teresa's most powerful asset is not yet Galatea's from what we've seen. Until then, Galatea's B+ over Irene's B in strength is a less significant advantage than Irene's A over Galatea's B (an entire letter grade being the difference) in agility. In short, Irene's Quicksword alone would dominate anything Galatea can throw at her. And if Irene's strong mental powers are any indication, the yoki manipulation trick is rendered impotent at the start.

The number five in Clare's generation was a previous generation's number 2. Noel is no fair comparison whatsoever to Raphaela. Who we probably need to compare Noel with is Miria, who would have held the number 5 position had the circumstances of Raphaela been different. These two are very close to each other, but Miria has the edge in where it counts by having a stronger yoki output and a proven tactical ability.

Ophelia on the other hand is a monster herself, surpassing even Galatea in yoki, agility, and strength. Save for her mental stability and sensing, she is on Raphaela's level, which is strong indeed.

Well U do have a very good point there

[Fenrir_valindri]

Originally Posted by FateAnomaly

Thats not entirely true either.
It is because of Clare human side that the "anchor" is effective at all. It would seems that those who half-awaken all have a strong desire to remain human. My opinion is that Clare humanity is proportional to the great power she holds.(Teresa yoki)

I don't think Clare has any more "humanity" then any of the other members of the fab 4, Clare's power was also the least at the start of the series, yet she lost control the most.

Miria managed to return is not in spite of Ophelia provocation but rather because of her provocation. It can even be considered a "anchor".
As for Helen and Deneve control, it is never shown the circumstances how they returned. For all you know, they may also have outside "assistances".

I suppose that was one way of looking at it, but Miria was being provoked instead of "anchored" like Clare was in most situations.

Being half awaken increase their limit threshold. Deneve and Clare did not go over their limit. It just appear so to others since they went over 80%.

Quite possible.

-------------------------------

Originally Posted by irvinethearcher

Miria:
"I knew i'd lost control of my yoma power. But i tried my best to suppress it.
I think i also hated knowing that SHE was the one who'd pushed me to that point."

So Miria was both provoked and anchored by Ophelia? Its pretty odd, but plausible I suppose.

Clare and Alicia are the only claymores so far who can make body parts fully awakening and clare is the only one who can use them in battle without losing herself. It's pure speculation and there's no prove but i think she can do this because
she is 3/4 human despite her thurst for vengeance which draws her to the "dark side". Or at least the 3/4 human thing is helping her doing this.
Clare knowed in the fight with rigardo that it is dangerous to do it but she saw it as the only chance defeating rigardo and saving her own life and the life of her comrades. Rigardo said that she realized the single one way of defeating him is an awakening of all 4 limbs.
I don't want to bad-mouth jeans performance. I want only say that she didn't use her awakened powers in battle.

Alicia actually fully awakens, not just awakens body parts.
I think she could do it for a very short period of time due to her Flash-Sword training more then anything, which taught her how to control an individual limb in a nearly-awakened state.

In her fight against Rigaldo she was no logically thinking "this is the only way I can beat him." She was clearly thinking "I must kill him, I must kill him, I must kill him!" she was going berserk, and using what she had learned from the Flash-Sword to increase her killing ability.

I am also saying that Jean had it the hardest controlling herself because she was not in a battle, so she had nothing but her own mental strength to hold her back.

-------------------------------------]

Originally Posted by Chendzeea Li

To be fair, Jean is the only one thus far who has undergone a full physically awakening and still retained her human heart. Four limbs is a far cry from a full body transformation. However I feel it is only a matter of time before Clare pull's this off. She's almost there, If Jean can do it, albiet barely and unwillingly, then Clare should be able too as well.

I am not so sure about that, but Time-skip Clare seems to have a clearer head then pre-time skip Clare, so maybe, but it would feel kind of cheesy if she did this.

On the other hand. Jean had help coming back. Clare used the same trick Galatea did to help her. In response, Jean used the same trick in return with Clare's partial awakening. So while Clare was able to awaken all four limbs she was in a similar boat that Jean was except out of control in the end. So as it stands, Clare has a long way to go before she can do that stunt again much less control it.

Something like that.

Originally Posted by Gooral

Let's be more precise on this. Priscilla allegedly, according to Organization's estimations was considered to have potential greater than Teresa. Yet what we've seen in a fight between these two, Teresa owned Priscilla with crushing superiority (to this point these are facts) and from Irene's relation she had much more power than Priscilla. Well Irene could had been talking about Priscilla but then how Teresa would be able to play with her ? (speculation)

It is quite possbile for her to have gerater potential then Teresa but not have had access to it yet, Teresa did indeed crush Priscilla, but this was due to Priscilla's lack of experience when compared to the veteren Teresa.

The Organization also admitted Priscilla had unconciously blocked off a large amount of her own power. (This was later confirmed by extra chapter 3)

In all cases we've seen so far in claymore, the stronger the warrior, the more youki he had and Teresa overwhelmed her future killer, thus it indicates Irene was meaning her when she said that. As Teresa's faithful fan I believe Teresa had the biggest factor by which her power increased (even greater than Galatea's) and it would explain how did she manage to solo Priscilla with only 10% youki release.

Not true with Clare, but I suppose we can count her as special
As for Teresa having the biggest factor, I believe that may have played a part, but the reverse could have also applied to Priscilla, as her inexperience means she could not draw out the bang for her buck in Yoki.

[QUOTE]As for Alicia, yeah she is definitely the strongest warrior MiB ever had BUT only when fully awakened. Miata, Priscilla and Teresa are/were definitely stronger although we haven't seen that for anyone besides Prissy. What's so great about Alicia is that she's a perfect tool, absolutely obedient to the orders of her masters. She doesn't complain, doesn't think of unnecessary things that might cause problems.
Anyway comparing anyone to 0% Teresa is meaningless. EOT.

I am not so sure, as we have not seen Alicia in action other then her soul-link test, I think she deserved her #1 rank off of more then just her ability, as she has not always had it.

Of course we can't be sure, but from what we saw she was stronger than any other being in claymore world. Even Priscilla who is considered to be the strongest being ever was owned by Teresa. We don't have to rely on MiB estimations, they don't know what we do. We're watching claymores from better perspective than them. If they saw the fight Teresa vs Priscilla they would probably correct their estimations.

You mean Priscilla who was just promoted to #2 and had very little actual combat experience, Priscilla who had a mental block on her own powers in fear of using too much of it? Yeah Teresa certainly owned that Priscilla. What we did not get to see was an experienced Priscilla who had access to all of her ability. While Teresa definatly was in her prime.

----------------------------------------

Originally Posted by khryoleoz

To be fair, Raki's presence was only an anchor in that it forced Clare to forcefully bring her yoki flow under control. Raki, being human, can't align his yoki to help Clare out. So Raki was certainly a motivating factor, but the control was all Clare.

I ment a positive, physichal, and mental anchor.

I'm not convinced she returned unaided by an anchor. Just not wanting to awaken so bad was in itself that anchor that motivated her own forceful control similar to Clare's. You can say however that the motivating factor here was internal rather than external, but Miria's level of control wasn't simply an on/off switch.

That is kind of what I mean, Clare had always had an external, and positive anchor, while Jean only had her own mental strength before Clare arrived, and Miria was actually being provoked, but chose used reverse psychology on herself

The way you portray it is in want of some clarity. The first time around Clare thought she needed to save Galatea's ass, so she used a lot of yoki to QuickHeal her legs then QuickRun to Galatea's position. Galatea decided to intervene in order to help the poor girl who was trying to return. What it shows is that Galatea aligning her yoki with Clare's can better facilitate the return, not necessarily that it was inevitable Clare would awaken short of Galatea's intervention. Next, Riful provoked Clare just the one time by issuing that challenge to strike her once for the whereabouts of "that thing". Galatea being wiser saw what was happening and simply chose to intervene again so as not to chance Clare losing it. It doesn't mean absolutely that without her intervention Clare would have been lost. What are the chances in either situation Clare actually needed the help? Well, pretty good, but the chances of Clare returning on her own was not zero.

Of course, nothing is ever zero when we Clare is concerned.

What you mean is that Jean managed to keep her human consciousness long enough for Clare to arrive. But Jean had pretty much given up and asked to be killed, only Clare would have none of it.

Which only makes her mental strength all the more amazing, she believed the situation was hopeless yet still retained her humanity.

Having too little information, I find Alicia a little mysterious for now. The twins appear to be have been created for the specific purpose of handling the AOs. We don't have any information about whether her training shared anything in common with any other Claymore or her training regimen was developed according to that purpose of being an Abyssal threat. But if the only fighting method the twins have ever known was that which would be employed against the AOs, then yes, Alicia is the most powerful number one ever. But that is because Alicia is the only Claymore who can use her power to its full potential. Not even Teresa would have been able to do that...well, not without herself awakening but unlike Alicia she won't be able to return. However, I suspect that Teresa in her lower state was still more powerful than Alicia in her awakened state, or if not more powerful then at least still more effective a combatant.

I am not so sure, we really do not have enough information on the twins, but I think Teresa's Yoki-sensing, more then her Yoki, would be the reason she could defeat Alicia.

------------------------------

Originally Posted by khryoleoz

If we accept that the general tendency of things is to progress, then we should be able to expect Clare's generation to be better than Teresa's. In most cases, yes we do find this to be true...except where it concerns the numbers 1 and 2, Teresa and Priscilla, who are arguably on a league of their own. I hold a different view with numbers 3 and 5 however.

I agree.

Irene vs Galatea, I argue that Irene is stronger overall. Teresa's most powerful asset is not yet Galatea's from what we've seen. Until then, Galatea's B+ over Irene's B in strength is a less significant advantage than Irene's A over Galatea's B (an entire letter grade being the difference) in agility. In short, Irene's Quicksword alone would dominate anything Galatea can throw at her. And if Irene's strong mental powers are any indication, the yoki manipulation trick is rendered impotent at the start.

Let us not forget that Irene was originally the #2 as well, before the freakishly powerful Priscilla came along.

The number five in Clare's generation was a previous generation's number 2. Noel is no fair comparison whatsoever to Raphaela. Who we probably need to compare Noel with is Miria, who would have held the number 5 position had the circumstances of Raphaela been different. These two are very close to each other, but Miria has the edge in where it counts by having a stronger yoki output and a proven tactical ability.

Yup, Miria is quite awesome for a #6

Ophelia on the other hand is a monster herself, surpassing even Galatea in yoki, agility, and strength. Save for her mental stability and sensing, she is on Raphaela's level, which is strong indeed.

Yup, too bad she was crazy as hell.

Originally Posted by Gooral

I totally agree, what I meant when writing "Alicia is the strongest warrior MiB ever had" was that MiB had at their disposal 0% Teresa only. I thought it was obvious but thanks for pointing that out, Fenrir or other Miria fan wouldn't interpret my words correctly.

Oh, I understand your words quite clearly. Teresa's Yoki was also no always at 0% either, she was a noob once too you know, so the MiB had some idea of how strong she was, just not exactly how strong. 0% Teresa was also so effective because of her Yoki-sensing ability, not just her pure strength.

Now we have to wait untill Wall of Text arrives .

Great Wall of Text actually, but you summoned and I came.

[irvinethearcher]

Originally Posted by Gooral

Let's be more precise on this. Priscilla allegedly, according to Organization's estimations was considered to have potential greater than Teresa. Yet what we've seen in a fight between these two, Teresa owned Priscilla with crushing superiority (to this point these are facts) and from Irene's relation she had much more power than Priscilla. Well Irene could had been talking about Priscilla but then how Teresa would be able to play with her ? (speculation)
In all cases we've seen so far in claymore, the stronger the warrior, the more youki he had and Teresa overwhelmed her future killer, thus it indicates Irene was meaning her when she said that. As Teresa's faithful fan I believe Teresa had the biggest factor by which her power increased (even greater than Galatea's) and it would explain how did she manage to solo Priscilla with only 10% youki release.
As for Alicia, yeah she is definitely the strongest warrior MiB ever had BUT only when fully awakened. Miata, Priscilla and Teresa are/were definitely stronger although we haven't seen that for anyone besides Prissy. What's so great about Alicia is that she's a perfect tool, absolutely obedient to the orders of her masters. She doesn't complain, doesn't think of unnecessary things that might cause problems.
Anyway comparing anyone to 0% Teresa is meaningless. EOT.


Of course we can't be sure, but from what we saw she was stronger than any other being in claymore world. Even Priscilla who is considered to be the strongest being ever was owned by Teresa. We don't have to rely on MiB estimations, they don't know what we do. We're watching claymores from better perspective than them. If they saw the fight Teresa vs Priscilla they would probably correct their estimations.


She did see them, even wanted to talk with them but that doesn't matter since she hasn't seen Teresa.

I think we don't know how much Teresa was holding back. The fight with rosemarie was very impressive and we don't know how much teresa gains from releasing her yoki. I saw the fight again in youtube.
Teresa was very strong:
Enjoy
Rosemary transformed into her awakened form
Rosemary: How did u...
Teresa: It was nothing special... i used my left hand to twist it off.
Rosemary: Tw... twist off!?
Teresa: Well then... let's finish this. Shall we? I don't usually do this, because occasionally when i do this i forget who i'm supposed to kill...
Teresa releasing 10% Yoki but twisted the arm off before!
Rosemary: Wait a minuite ... there's no way you have this much yoki.
Rosemary is dead meat!

The remarkable thing is that teresa twisted the arm from a former Nr. 1 off with 0% yoki.
While reading the 3t databook i found something. Easley was Nr.1, Rigardo Nr. 2 and Duff was Nr. 3. (Only for those who didn't know.) Clare is also with 4 limbs awakened much stronger than duff.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Alicia actually fully awakens, not just awakens body parts.
I think she could do it for a very short period of time due to her Flash-Sword training more then anything, which taught her how to control an individual limb in a nearly-awakened state.

I think that the flash sword technique helped her to awaken body parts, too. Therefore i said that Irene, Alicia, Jeane and Clare are the only claymores who did something similar. But if it is so easy, why didn't irene ever learned to awaken body parts? Irene had a much stronger mentality than clare and more time to learn it. Come on, the 3/4 human thing have to be good for something

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

In her fight against Rigaldo she was no logically thinking "this is the only way I can beat him." She was clearly thinking "I must kill him, I must kill him, I must kill him!" she was going berserk, and using what she had learned from the Flash-Sword to increase her killing ability.

She said something about killing. But she said "not enough ... still not enough". And rigardo said that she realized that a 4 limbed awakening was the only way to defeat him. Clare had in a way no other choice than to awaken her 4 limbs.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

I am also saying that Jean had it the hardest controlling herself because she was not in a battle, so she had nothing but her own mental strength to hold her back.

I can't say for sure what is harder: Controlling a 4limbed awakening in battle and preventing it from fully awakening. Or concentrating all power to preventing a awakened body from taking control of the spirit.
(Sorry for my bad english)

[khryoleoz]

LOL! You saw the Rosemary and Teresa fight again on youtube...as if that extra scene was animated.

If Rosemary's and any of the 3 AO's Claymore and AB stats can be published, then we can make comparisons and infer from them just how much stronger Teresa could be. We have some idea about Luciela's Claymore stats by looking at Raphaela's. And Teresa's stats show she's stronger than Raphaela. If Rosemary's stuff was anywhere near someone like Raphaela, then Teresa's twisting that arm off shows that she is truly fearsome. And this is the stuff that's inside Clare, the monster she finds it so hard to control when provoked enough.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Originally Posted by irvinethearcher

I think that the flash sword technique helped her to awaken body parts, too. Therefore i said that Irene, Alicia, Jeane and Clare are the only claymores who did something similar. But if it is so easy, why didn't irene ever learned to awaken body parts? Irene had a much stronger mentality than clare and more time to learn it. Come on, the 3/4 human thing have to be good for something

Irene was also smart enough not to risk her humanity on an attempt at awakening her limbs, which is obviously a bad idea judging from what happened to Clare. 3/4 human has servered a purpose already, it made Clare the underdog, and due to her unstable nature she is becoming more and more powerful, albiet she does need alot of saving.

She said something about killing. But she said "not enough ... still not enough". And rigardo said that she realized that a 4 limbed awakening was the only way to defeat him. Clare had in a way no other choice than to awaken her 4 limbs.

I don't think she was thinking something as clear as "I need to awaken my arms and legs to kill him." It was more like "I need to be faster, faster ,faster ,faster" and then "I need more power!!."

These were very primal and immediate needs, not something Clare was conciously controlling.

I can't say for sure what is harder: Controlling a 4limbed awakening in battle and preventing it from fully awakening. Or concentrating all power to preventing a awakened body from taking control of the spirit.
(Sorry for my bad english)

I would guess it is easier with the 4 limb awakening in battle due to Clare having something to focus her aggression against, while not having any particular motivation or target would be more dangerous when trying to control all that energy.

It is like throwing excess energy in one direction as oppose to trying to bottle it up.

[khryoleoz]

I have to add that the pressure Jean was put under was extremely harsh, nothing short of cruel torture designed to eventually kill her unless she awakened. My question is if Jean was so ready to throw away her life at Clare's hand rather than awaken, I wonder why she had not simply allowed herself to succumb to her injuries long before her body started to undergo the awakening process, when in the end she asked to be killed anyway.

[Chendzeea Li]

I am of the opinion that Rosemary and Alicia are of similar power. Though Alicia may be slightly more so. Alicia seems very very fast, similar to Rigardo. Regardless, I also belive Teresa would have little trouble dealing with her or any of the known Abyssal's except, perhaps Priscila.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Originally Posted by khryoleoz

I have to add that the pressure Jean was put under was extremely harsh, nothing short of cruel torture designed to eventually kill her unless she awakened. My question is if Jean was so ready to throw away her life at Clare's hand rather than awaken, I wonder why she had not simply allowed herself to succumb to her injuries long before her body started to undergo the awakening process, when in the end she asked to be killed anyway.

I believe her body would instinctually try to heal itself, thus using more and more Yoki, and since the wounds won't close it just gradually takes more and more Yoki to continue trying to heal them, so this would inevitably lead to awakening. To stop this process would be simliar to trying to kill yourself by holding your breath, it just doesn't work, and her hands and feet were bound so there is no chance of her being able to kill herself by other means.

Originally Posted by Chendzeea Li

I am of the opinion that Rosemary and Alicia are of similar power. Though Alicia may be slightly more so. Alicia seems very very fast, similar to Rigardo. Regardless, I also belive Teresa would have little trouble dealing with her or any of the known Abyssal's except, perhaps Priscila.

I would not be so sure of that, if anything I'd bet Rosemary was more around Rigaldo's level.
Alicia is not only fast, but immensely powerful, she destroyed a group of above average ABs in a few seconds, without being scratched. She completely obliterated them. Don't forget that the other Abyssal Ones are faster then Riglado as well, so comparing a none Abyssal One to an Abyssal One is almost an insult to the big cheeses.

I have always been of the opinion that Teresa is the equal to the Abyssal Ones if she went all out (aka 80%). It is quite a lofty statement to say she could deal with an Abyssal One with little trouble, otherwise even Priscilla's suprise attack would not have killed her.

[Tempest35]

Well, wouldn't being a #9 make your inital threshold to pain be higher than others? I don't see Jean dying easily just from wounds. Her mental and physical resistance to pain and also the base desire, no the instinct to live in spite of the pain probably kept her alive even as she awakened. In other words, the wounds to Jean were enough to make her body release youki enough to try and heal the damage done to her, but the damange wasn't enough to nessecarily kill her. Maybe the others yes, but not her.
So I'll say that, to date, Jean wins for the half-awakeneds in going that far and still able to be pulled back. Granted, being that far along WOULD require help getting back to normal.

As for the others, pulling one's self back requires a tremendous amount of willpower at that moment.

Miria : taking the Extra Chapter into account, Miria was furious with Ophelia. A rage so strong, her youki unleashed in response and it quickly went over the rumored 90% of no return. The others in her party other than Ophelia were pleading for her to stop (no doubt they were scared that taking on a single digit Awakened one with only one single digit and the two of them was simply too much) but her youki kept pouring out. In her mind, she quickly pieced together Ophelia's little 'story' just before Awakened Hilda attacked and the circumstances of the entire thing. But right when Ophelia just looked at her and told to 'hurry up and awaken already,' Miria finally knew that Ophelia wanted to kill Awakened Ones - and that was it. It didn't matter if she indirectly allowed her comrades to awaken if it meant that she would be sent later to destroy them - that was all that Ophelia wanted. Well, Miria wasn't going to allow her that satisfaction so above her own rage at Ophelia and Hilda's death, she forced herself to retain humanity so that Hilda's death would not be in vain and the two of them end up dead at the hands of a true monster.

Clare - we've all seen Clare's near Awakening but I feel that most people gloss over Raki's importance in this instance because he's just a whiny brat. She saw Raki being with her in the same light as she was with Teresa when she was younger. She remembered how happy she was, and how willing she was to put her own self into danger for Teresa's sake. Now here she is, on the verge of becoming a monster so she tries to have Galk kill her before her youki instincts take over. The manga shows Clare's sword are taking a swing at Raki but Clare overpowers it at the last second, sending it crashing into the cobblestone floor. She wanted Raki to live above anything else, even at the cost of her own life and she had already made provisions for him ahead of time. What she didn't know was the depth of Raki's devotion to her already. When Raki gave his line, 'if you die Clare, then I'll die too," Clare's greatest reason for dying suddenly became Clare's greatest reason for living. Yes, Clare's illogical like that. I like the scene in the anime because of the expression Clare gives just before the final surge of youki that would have undoubtedly pushed her to awakening but instead she resists with everything she's got and stops it. Why does it mean so much? We've seen how the girls called Claymores live - everything's bleak for them. Only a few have a friend and even less, a friend willing to risk themselves for them. Clare was probably the only one since Teresa's time to have a human companion willing to die with and for them. It might seem contrite and unrealisitic to the impartial observer but there's no denying that it's there - the feelings between Raki and Clare are strong indeed - as strong as the love between brother and sister yet tender as a lover's kiss.
Aw, got all poetic at the end...

[Chendzeea Li]

It is most sad then that Clare could not reach out to Elena who was obviously struggling with her life. Perhaps she could have saved her, and had a friend who would understand her and be with her when she needed. Jean filled that role wonderfully but alas.

[Sassarai]

Originally Posted by Chendzeea Li

It is most sad then that Clare could not reach out to Elena who was obviously struggling with her life. Perhaps she could have saved her, and had a friend who would understand her and be with her when she needed. Jean filled that role wonderfully but alas.

That's where Raki comes in!! Just wait till he returns after 7 years! He's going to be more powerful then guts.

[stormy001_M1A2]

Originally Posted by Chendzeea Li

It is most sad then that Clare could not reach out to Elena who was obviously struggling with her life. Perhaps she could have saved her, and had a friend who would understand her and be with her when she needed. Jean filled that role wonderfully but alas.

By the time they meet again, it is all too late.

[khryoleoz]

Tempest, that's a great reminder of an often downplayed, if not overlooked detail just because of Raki hate. Raki is to Clare a mirror, one that shows a snippet of her life when she was happier. The Rabona scene is especially powerful, because she beat the odds in order to save one who had become dear to her, because he wasn't about to live w/out her. Clare's story wins the award for best drama. Priscilla, Ophelia, Deneve, Undine, I can go down the list and they haven't the stuff to even come close.

[Gooral]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Teresa did indeed crush Priscilla, but this was due to Priscilla's lack of experience when compared to the veteren Teresa.

Yeah? I wonder how would the fight between the most experienced Rafaela and 80% Priscilla look like.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

The Organization also admitted Priscilla had unconciously blocked off a large amount of her own power. (This was later confirmed by extra chapter 3)

Yeah but they haven't seen the fight with Teresa and no one could confirm that. They just made logical assumption taking into account all the data they've had (if they did actually - these statistics don't seem to be official nor with Yagi's blessing).

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Not true with Clare, but I suppose we can count her as special

I disagree. Clare has Teresa inside, she has infinite amount of yoki hidden in her, and every time she's in trouble her adversaries are surprised of her power.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

You mean Priscilla who was just promoted to #2 and had very little actual combat experience, Priscilla who had a mental block on her own powers in fear of using too much of it? Yeah Teresa certainly owned that Priscilla. What we did not get to see was an experienced Priscilla who had access to all of her ability. While Teresa definatly was in her prime.

Mental block? We didn't see mental block when she fought Teresa or just after she killed her. Her youki was overflowing from her constantly; I wouldn't call it holding back or being feared of using too much of it. She was completely aware of what was going on, being even sarcastic. She didn't want to be killed either. We have yet to see Priscilla like that again.
As for Isley vs. Priscilla fight, sure she showed some fearsome power but after using it she returned to her human form which could mean she used too much of it. Isley spared her and swore loyalty to her so he could use Priscilla. He noticed she was stronger than him but saw her limit and weak point. I don't think he would allow himself to miss an opportunity like that. He could kill her at the end but didn't do it because he would gain nothing from it. He's a practical man, if he feared he might be easily killed he wouldn't do it.

[khryoleoz]

I'm always glad to discuss Teresa vs Priscilla. It's a fascinating study with lots to explore. ES3 showed that Priscilla as a fully awakened being can do much much more than what she was shown to be capable of in chapter 23, the most hated chapter in all of Claymore which details the account of her awakening. The org does say that Priscilla locked much of her power in a potential state, a state that they believed would surpass Teresa's. They didn't count on that potential being realized by her awakening instead of by experiencing a prosperous career as their number 1 warrior.

However, Teresa herself was a pillar of untapped potential, so powerful she only on occasion released 10% of her power, not out of need to call upon that power but simply to exercise it like doing arm curls. The only time she needed this power was in fighting the very Priscilla who was said to surpass her. So let's look at how their individual potentials were unlocked, though I'll be trumpeting things I've said before.

Say what you will of Priscilla's mental state during their second round of fighting, it does not show that she was any less lethal a threat. In fact, she had even inflicted Teresa some slight injury. Priscilla, based on the visible physical distortions that mark the amount of yoki release, had increasingly released until return was no longer possible (or at least very very difficult), which is said to be at around 80+%. With increasing yoki release, she gave Teresa everything that she had out of pure hatred of yoma which she projected onto Teresa. Yet, throughout this fight Teresa only needed to call upon that 10% release, which was more than enough to not only fend off Priscilla's vicious attacks but dominate her. So there was a lot in reserve that Teresa had that was still in that potential state, whereas Priscilla was just about exhausting hers. Whether Yagi intended for it to come out this way or not, this is compelling evidence that the Org had grossly underestimated Teresa's potential. Then there's also the controversial matter with Rosemary.

I can see some validity to objections raised that Teresa dominated Priscilla because the fight was between a seasoned veteran and a rookie. If all things were equal, meaning both Teresa and Priscilla were either newbies or veterans, how would this fight have played out? We can't say if they were both rookies, as we haven't seen much of Teresa's character when she first started her warrior career. But it's a good estimate that if both were veterans then Priscilla likely wouldn't have awakened, as she would have matured enough in her thinking (probably). The skill of a warrior can be improved to whatever degree possible with proper training and experience. This is highly debatable but if the essence of a Claymore is fixed (which I believe it is), then the latent abilities that are the potential of that essence are also fixed. The extent at which one harnesses those powers through training and experience can only be increased up until the full potential is reached. While I'd like to point to the Warrior stats, if those stats reflect the org's measurement based on real states and not potential states, then the stats would be of no help at measuring latent abilities. The AB stats actualize the potential states as real states, but we have only Priscilla's half of the AB stats, and thankfully we'll never see Teresa's to make a comparison. Anyway, I'm off on a tangent, but Teresa's advantage really is that she has been a warrior for much longer than Priscilla. Even if Priscilla was afforded the time to become a finely tuned, seasoned veteran warrior, Teresa would still be ahead by having been a warrior for even much longer still. So I count Teresa's seniority as her blessing.

[speedy3020]

Originally Posted by khryoleoz

I'm always glad to discuss Teresa vs Priscilla. It's a fascinating study with lots to explore. ES3 showed that Priscilla as a fully awakened being can do much much more than what she was shown to be capable of in chapter 23, the most hated chapter in all of Claymore which details the account of her awakening. The org does say that Priscilla locked much of her power in a potential state, a state that they believed would surpass Teresa's. They didn't count on that potential being realized by her awakening instead of by experiencing a prosperous career as their number 1 warrior.

However, Teresa herself was a pillar of untapped potential, so powerful she only on occasion released 10% of her power, not out of need to call upon that power but simply to exercise it like doing arm curls. The only time she needed this power was in fighting the very Priscilla who was said to surpass her. So let's look at how their individual potentials were unlocked, though I'll be trumpeting things I've said before.

Say what you will of Priscilla's mental state during their second round of fighting, it does not show that she was any less lethal a threat. In fact, she had even inflicted Teresa some slight injury. Priscilla, based on the visible physical distortions that mark the amount of yoki release, had increasingly released until return was no longer possible (or at least very very difficult), which is said to be at around 80+%. With increasing yoki release, she gave Teresa everything that she had out of pure hatred of yoma which she projected onto Teresa. Yet, throughout this fight Teresa only needed to call upon that 10% release, which was more than enough to not only fend off Priscilla's vicious attacks but dominate her. So there was a lot in reserve that Teresa had that was still in that potential state, whereas Priscilla was just about exhausting hers. Whether Yagi intended for it to come out this way or not, this is compelling evidence that the Org had grossly underestimated Teresa's potential. Then there's also the controversial matter with Rosemary.

I can see some validity to objections raised that Teresa dominated Priscilla because the fight was between a seasoned veteran and a rookie. If all things were equal, meaning both Teresa and Priscilla were either newbies or veterans, how would this fight have played out? We can't say if they were both rookies, as we haven't seen much of Teresa's character when she first started her warrior career. But it's a good estimate that if both were veterans then Priscilla likely wouldn't have awakened, as she would have matured enough in her thinking (probably). The skill of a warrior can be improved to whatever degree possible with proper training and experience. This is highly debatable but if the essence of a Claymore is fixed (which I believe it is), then the latent abilities that are the potential of that essence are also fixed. The extent at which one harnesses those powers through training and experience can only be increased up until the full potential is reached. While I'd like to point to the Warrior stats, if those stats reflect the org's measurement based on real states and not potential states, then the stats would be of no help at measuring latent abilities. The AB stats actualize the potential states as real states, but we have only Priscilla's half of the AB stats, and thankfully we'll never see Teresa's to make a comparison. Anyway, I'm off on a tangent, but Teresa's advantage really is that she has been a warrior for much longer than Priscilla. Even if Priscilla was afforded the time to become a finely tuned, seasoned veteran warrior, Teresa would still be ahead by having been a warrior for even much longer still. So I count Teresa's seniority as her blessing.

I would have to mostly agree with what you said there. I would still like to believe Teresa to be the superior warrior though, regardless of their difference in experience when they fought.

Teresa as an awakened being though... ouch.

[Tempest35]

Heh heh, I wouldn't say that Teresa completely dominated Priscilla now... :waits for the ire of the Teresa fans:

Priscilla wasn't that much of a 'rookie' as well. Sure she was only months out of the ORG but her sword skills, at the time, were pretty top notch. It's like taking the top student of a sword style and pitting them against a master - at that point, staying calm under that kind of pressure is the key to overcoming the experience gap. Her biggest mistake against Teresa was that she lost her cool.

It was only after Teresa stopped trying to read Priscilla's Youki and fight using her eyes, reflexes and whatnot as in a regular fight, it was then that Teresa started to gain the upper hand. You'd notice that in nearly every frame, she faced Priscilla head-on while Noel and Sophia, she took out most of the time without facing them directly. Teresa had also become a lot more versatile in her combat techniques than most Claymores. She's the only Claymore I've seen that has actually kicked in a fight.