Aspects of Translation

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Vexx

I'd say its a basic beginner's error. Romaji translations by people who actually get paid to do such things put 'wa' to replace the '’は’　character when used as the subject particle. I can't think of or find any justifiable reason for using 'ha' in that way.

O_o

Well, soooorrryyyy for our incompetence...

It's a simple matter of choice. There are different approaches to romanization. Hepburn is only one option, there are others.

You might want to read this wikipedia entry about it.

[Vexx]

Like I said in that post ... (almost a year ago was that post) ... it was a Hepburn pillow fight. And I didn't call anyone incompetent... The main problem I see with writing romaji "ha" instead of "wa" is that neophyte or solo Japanese learners can get into the habit of pronouncing the particle incorrectly Typing "ha" to get the japanese character in IME is just the equivalent of a hotkey or powerkey to get a special character. As you type yourself under your username: Sore wa himitsu desu!

[Mentar]

Well, I'm not a translator, I only encode stuff :P

Anyway, "basic beginner's error" doesn't cut it. Which is why I replied. It's a matter of choice, simple as that.

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by vexx

I'd say its a basic beginner's error. Romaji translations by people who actually get paid to do such things put 'wa' to replace the '’は’　character when used as the subject particle. I can't think of or find any justifiable reason for using 'ha' in that way.

Okay, to quote from your wiki link then:

Originally Posted by wiki link

The latter can be subdivided into phonemic transcription, which records the phonemes or units of semantic meaning in speech, and more strict phonetic transcription, which records speech sounds with precision.

To toss in my two pence, my opinion will stem from the academic field seeing as it was uni where I learnt japanese from, my influence and attitudes to use of romaji is based off how the lecturers utilised it for us students.

First off, romaji is evil (my own flippant repsonse, lol)
For such a homophonic language such as Japanese, it can only cause much tears, frustration and random wild guessing.
Secondly, it's main purpose is to simply act as a 'buffer' for us forgieners to be able to pronounce the words as close as we can to the english language, until we memorise the kana alphabet and get used to the sounds associated with it.
So reading the last few pages only to learn that there were different systems to writing romaji (news to me) but people somehow actually considered to write the particle は as 'ha' seems crazy to me.

I can understand the systems emerging for written use of romanising Japanese names (be it a person, place or building)
but to tell (or write rather)
'watashi ha kai desu'
instead of
'watashi wa kai desu'
Seems totally pointless, not to mention confusing to the typical non speaking forgiener who wants to learn to say a few simple things and wouldn't have a clue about particles in japanese including some of the irregularities about them.
To say it's a 'basic beginners error' isn't necessarily bad reasoning, since they may have memorised some hiragana, but may have been unaware about the particles or other grammar aspects.
It happens.

I wouldn't see it as a 'choice'; it's just not neccesary to use 'ha' to replace はas a particle when phonetically to us English natives, 'ha' comes out as 'happy' kind of 'ha'.

Call me lazy and simple if you will :P
It's not as if English and Japanese aren't complicated enough as languages without adding that to the mix.

[Mentar]

Okay, I'll try to make this short and sweet.

Call me lazy and simple if you will :P

As you wish. You are lazy, simple, AND quite a bit annoying. As the Wiki entry proves, there are different ways to romanize Japanese. Choosing a different one to the most "popular" Hepburn is the prerogative of the TLs. If you don't like it, that's just TOO bad, really.

Originally Posted by Mystique

First off, romaji is evil (my own flippant repsonse, lol)
For such a homophonic language such as Japanese, it can only cause much tears, frustration and random wild guessing.

Not really. In the very first hours, while you learn Hiragana/Katakana, but don't have everything memorized yet, it's a useful crutch.

Secondly, it's main purpose is to simply act as a 'buffer' for us forgieners to be able to pronounce the words as close as we can to the english language [...]

Simply wrong. That's the idea behind _Hepburn_, but not of romanization in general, which is the expression of Japanese syllables in romanic form. Read the entry again about the difference between "transliteration" and "phonemic transcription".

If anything, I consider Hepburn to be counterproductive for learning Japanese, because it makes confusing particle conversions (ha-wa, wo-o, he-e) which would lead to confusion later on. As someone who is currently in the process of slowly learning Japanese, I definitely prefer the transliteration approach, because it's more useful for me. For the mere fan with no or only minimal interest in the language, but who'd rather like to sing along, Hepburn would be more useful - fine.

However, the choice is with the translator. And it's really rude not only to pretend to be in a position to dictate to him about what's "right" and "wrong", but even to belittle his decision as "beginner's error" is quite arrogant in MY book. Think about that in a calm minute.

[Edit] Sorry if this came over as a bit harsh, but this kind of stuff really grates on my nerves. It should be not too much to ask to respect choices made by others even if for some reasons you disagree with them.

[creamyhorror]

I use 'ha' for は and 'du' for づ in my song romanizations, and 'ou' for long sounds except when the Japanese is actually 'oo'. I feel perfectly justified in doing this since, analogously, Chinese pinyin romanization uses forms like 'qing' instead of 'ch'ing' (which is closer to an English spelling of the pronunciation), and 'xu' instead of...I don't even know what. Like Mentar says, romanization's goal is not necessarily to adhere to English pronunciations. Too bad if a few people get their karaoke singing wrong because of me; does it matter?

[Heibi]

Originally Posted by creamyhorror

I use 'ha' for は and 'du' for づ in my song romanizations, and 'ou' for long sounds except when the Japanese is actually 'oo'. I feel perfectly justified in doing this since, analogously, Chinese pinyin romanization uses forms like 'qing' instead of 'ch'ing' (which is closer to an English spelling of the pronunciation), and 'xu' instead of...I don't even know what. Like Mentar says, romanization's goal is not necessarily to adhere to English pronunciations. Too bad if a few people get their karaoke singing wrong because of me; does it matter?

But I hope you also "Listen" to the song before you simply use "ha" for は. You'll probably hear a "wa" sound from the singer. Attention to detail is quite important.

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by Heibi

But I hope you also "Listen" to the song before you simply use "ha" for は. You'll probably hear a "wa" sound from the singer. Attention to detail is quite important.

You missed his point, Heibi.

-Tofu

[Quarkboy]

I think this tangent of this thread lacks historical perspective. People have been arguing over the proper way to romanize Asian speech for hundreds if not thousands of years. Anyone who thinks there is only one obviously "right" answer lacks a sense of history.
We all have a preference, I'm sure, but this isn't such a cut and dry subject as some of you seem to imply it is.

[creamyhorror]

Originally Posted by Heibi

But I hope you also "Listen" to the song before you simply use "ha" for は. You'll probably hear a "wa" sound from the singer. Attention to detail is quite important.

I don't know what you're implying...that I don't know that the particle は is pronounced 'wa'? I probably wouldn't be romanizing songs if I didn't even know that about Japanese.

[Heibi]

Originally Posted by Tofusensei

You missed his point, Heibi.

-Tofu

Not from what was typed. Sounded ironclad, "I use 'ha' for は .... in my song romanizations", to me. Don't think I missed the point.

[Heibi]

Originally Posted by creamyhorror

I don't know what you're implying...that I don't know that the particle は is pronounced 'wa'? I probably wouldn't be romanizing songs if I didn't even know that about Japanese.

I didn't say that. My point is, when you romanize a song, make sure you romanize how the character is pronounced. If は is pronounced 'wa' in the song, you should romanize it as "wa" not "ha".

[creamyhorror]

Originally Posted by Heibi

I didn't say that. My point is, when you romanize a song, make sure you romanize how the character is pronounced. If は is pronounced 'wa' in the song, you should romanize it as "wa" not "ha".

The entire point of my first post was to reject that practice. That's what this whole discussion has been about, hasn't it.

[Heibi]

Originally Posted by creamyhorror

The entire point of my first post was to reject that practice. That's what this whole discussion has been about, hasn't it.

Just so you know, my native Japanese translator would use "wa" if that was how it was pronounced. I don't know your background so there is no insult intended. Just my experience as a fansubber since 1992 tells me that romanization is pretty cut and dry when the pronounciation is clear. There can be fine lines. You may not be wrong using "ha" but you aren't exactly right if it is pronounced "wa". Now if you were to reverse it, i.e. adding hiragana, there wouldn't be a problems.

[Sylf]

Heibi & creamyhorn, you two don't sound like you are on the same page at all.

creamyhorn adopted one standard that converts the sound "wa" to は when it's recognized as a particle. It's not just copying the text, but actual conversion process. It's totally different from romanizing from Japanese text.

That said, I can't fathom why you want to adopt such a standard. Really, why? What does that accomplish? I'm a native Japanese, fully aware of how は and へ are used. I still romanize them as wa and e when appropriate.

Even with that said, Heibi, the argument of "My Japanese TL does one way, has been doing that way for 15+ years, so it must be the right way" sounds like a weak argument. I totally agree with the romanization style you use, but you reasoning wasn't convincing at all.

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by Mentar

However, the choice is with the translator. And it's really rude not only to pretend to be in a position to dictate to him about what's "right" and "wrong", but even to belittle his decision as "beginner's error" is quite arrogant in MY book. Think about that in a calm minute.

First of, who is 'him'?
I think I caught the key here cause I got a mate on IRC who was like 'ha ha, Mystique’s got into an argument with Mentar'
I was like 'what argument?' I merely tossed in my opinion to the board, it's up to the readers to interpret as they will or ask me for clarification or to discuss the matter further.
Came and checked in here and was like 'oh, wow my powers must be growing if I can annoy someone whilst having zero intent, go me.'
Or rather, perhaps it's because Mentar didn't take the time to see past his emotions, his annoyance with previous posters on this topic, view my post objectively for what it was (which I'll break down to you in a sec) and respond in a civilised manner.
And then has the nerve to tell me to 'calm down' (I couldn't help but laugh a lil here, since it's you who's getting worked up)
And has the nerve to tell me how rude and arrogant I am when Mentar's the one directly insulting my character based on a gross misunderstanding on his behalf.
Somehow I think you need to "think about that in a calm minute".

Now time to clear up some things for you before you go biting off someone else’s head.
My opinion and thoughts on romaji mainly stemmed from what Vexx said about the use of wa vs ha for the は character as a particle. What AS doesn't do I've noticed is quote from more than one person's post unless we manually edit it in, so I'm guessing by Mentar overly zealous reply to my post, he's defending someone's usage on ha for は as a particle and so on.
Good for you. That was not my reply was in relation to directly, thus your ranting to me is pointless.
Had a few head scratching moments before I finally figured out what bee got up your butt.

My reply like I said, was to merely toss in my 2 pence about one aspect of romaji, the latter side as to requote myself:

Originally Posted by Mystique

The latter can be subdivided into phonemic transcription, which records the phonemes or units of semantic meaning in speech, and more strict phonetic transcription, which records speech sounds with precision.

For someone who tossed this link into here, I'd think you'd be well aware of the article contents itself. -.-
My opinion on romaji as a whole and claiming it was evil, is a flippant response as I said so very clearly here, it wasn't something you were meant to take so seriously, especially since I didn't bother to properly state fully and toss in examples as to 'why'.

Originally Posted by Mystique

First off, romaji is evil (my own flippant response, lol)
For such a homophonic language such as Japanese, it can only cause much tears, frustration and random wild guessing.
Secondly, it's main purpose is to simply act as a 'buffer' for us foreigners to be able to pronounce the words as close as we can to the English language, until we memorise the kana alphabet and get used to the sounds associated with it.

Funny, you know what, I swear I just said the same thing as you but of course, it's nicer to only quote partial sentences of what I wrote to try to justify your claims.
As for 'not really' - yes really.
hashi ga kowarechatta!
English person 1: What?! The bridge broke?!
English person 2: No... my chopsticks broke....

Waa! kisei wo mita! Sugoi!
既成 【きせい】 (adj-no,n) established, completed, existing, (P)
気勢 【きせい】 (n) fervour, fervor, vigour, vigor, ardour, spirit, (P)
棋聖 【きせい】 (n) great master of go (shogi), (P)
既製 【きせい】 (n) ready-made, (P)
規制 【きせい】 (n) regulation, (P)
帰省 【きせい】 (n,vs) homecoming, returning home, (P)
寄生 【きせい】 (n,vs) parasitism, parasite, (P)

Knock yourself out, tell me which one I may be talking about.

Once hiragana and katakana have been memorised, a lot of Japanese lecturers will immediately dispose of romaji, simply cause it's an alphabet designed to help us Westerners learn the Japanese language, as I said it acts as a buffer. The Japanese themselves couldn't give a rat’s ass about it, they got katakana to sort out phonetical issues with English (not the best option though...)
So beyond that (this is purely for transcription, you know the 'latter' part of your lovely wiki article) there is very little use for it for a student. Rather having learnt and imprinted the characters into your mind only to then revert back to romaji is regressing. It just diminishes your memory of English vocab associated with the characters and slows down your reading speed of Japanese too. (this I speak from personal experience)
Thus "evil".

I then go on to say:

Originally Posted by Mystique

I can understand the systems emerging for written use of romanising Japanese names (be it a person, place or building)

That refers to the transliteration part, of course people are then gonna have choices and preferences, to each their own, but that's another can of worms I didn't open this time, or at least I wasn't addressing with my reply.
My point continues onto the basic, simple everyday practical use of romaji to the non speaking westerner who wants to learn a few words of Japanese.

Originally Posted by Mystique

but to tell (or write rather)
'watashi ha kai desu'
instead of
'watashi wa kai desu'
Seems totally pointless, not to mention confusing to the typical non speaking foreigner who wants to learn to say a few simple things and wouldn't have a clue about particles in Japanese including some of the irregularities about them.

Ironically, you also say it's confusing to use 'wa' - to be honest, beyond using romaji to associate English sounds to hiragana and katakana in beginners Japanese, that's all just about students typically learn and then it's simply discarded, unless someone was to research into transliteration and advanced translation. But seeing as most just wanna learn a few words of Japanese, who are we as translators, interpreters of a language we're learning, not native to, but 'learning' to misinform another person.

Originally Posted by creamyhorror

I use 'ha' for は and 'du' for づ in my song romanizations, and 'ou' for long sounds except when the Japanese is actually 'oo'. I feel perfectly justified in doing this since, analogously, Chinese pinyin romanization uses forms like 'qing' instead of 'ch'ing' (which is closer to an English spelling of the pronunciation), and 'xu' instead of...I don't even know what. Like Mentar says, romanization's goal is not necessarily to adhere to English pronunciations. Too bad if a few people get their karaoke singing wrong because of me; does it matter?

It's not its sole goal, no, but like I said, who are we to misinform people with less Japanese language skills than us. To simply go 'too bad', that to me is arrogant.
Of course it matters! If we're doing something to aid and assist other people, why shouldn't be we be doing it as accurately and best as we can, not to mention to keep life simple too.
(Alternative answer could be 'I simply don't care that much' - to which I'd usually reply 'then why bother in the first place?')

translation

noun
1. a written communication in a second language having the same meaning as the written communication in a first language

So if in Japanese the sounds are 'wa' and we find in the English language to match that sound so we speak correctly is a w-a, why use h-a (as in happy) and then have some non-aware westerners going 'watashi ha kai desu'
(yes yes, there's a system that adopts it) - but I gotta side with sylf and just go 'why even bother to use it? What does it accomplish, save possible confusion and misinterpretation.
It's simple enough to say 'when you see は on it's own, say it like 'wa'' and to write it as such so they remember in their native language how to pronounce japanese correctly.

In that sense, I refer to me being simple. To simply write a 'wa' cause its spoken as 'wa' despite the irregularity in the Japanese language (not our own) works, can't go wrong with it, especially if the person is to never memorise the kana alphabet.

To write 'ha' risks mistakes in pronunciation, or having to break down grammar rules and explain it all.
Just seems like more hassle transcription wise.

Thus my two pence has been added, make of it what you will. I have my own preferences as a translator and an individual in relation to how I was taught and how I teach others, you will have your own with different reasoning, thus debates and discussions ensue.

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by Sylf

That said, I can't fathom why you want to adopt such a standard. Really, why? What does that accomplish? I'm a native Japanese, fully aware of how は and へ are used. I still romanize them as wa and e when appropriate.

I'm with ya, Sylf. I use "wa," "e" and "o" for particles. I don't see any reason to do it otherwise. I mean, if someone following the romaji knows enough Japanese to know that "ha" is romanized that way because it's the particle は, then I'm sure they're smart enough to "reverse engineer" the romanization of "wa" from context. This way you're not alienating the folks who don't know enough Japanese to understand why he hears "wa" but sees "ha" in the romaji. If that makes sense. ^^;

-Tofu

[Fimbulvetr]

Fansubbing. Serious Business.
And because it is so serious, as a fansubber you should at least have a basic understanding of what you are doing. Yes, there are many ways to romanize japanese text but that doesn't mean that the most obscure wapuro-styles are fit for use in fansubs - because mostly people who watch anime don't want to know what they have to type into their keyboard to get the right kana/kanji, they most likely want a representation of the pronounciation.
And since we aren't talking about romanization in general but only about romanization for anime fansubs for a western audience, more specifically opening and ending karaoke, I even have to disagree with Quarkboy: there is no real need to look at any 'history' besides maybe the history of romaji in fansubs. And as far as I can tell (I only started watching fansubs starting in 2000) there was somewhat of a standard way to do it: basically Hepburn, treating long vowels the way modified Hepburn does (leaving them as double vovels) and ん the way the of revised Hepburn, only with exceptions for 'ou' and the the 'wo' particle which could stay as they were.　
I'm not saying everyone needs to use strictest Hepburn, but for people who can read moonglyphs you wouldn't need romaji anyway and for incompetent gaijin like most fansub watchers it seems not to be such a great idea to stray too far from it, since は -> 'ha'　づ -> 'du'　ぢ -> 'di' etc is barely more useful for the watcher than しょ -> 'silyo' (it's not syo either, it's sho damnit), all of which are perfectly fine for wapuro. Just not fine for fansubs.


edit: completely forgot to mention: romanization is not translation. Not related, and shouldn't be treated that way. Leaving it to the translator is a possibility, not a must. Even a beginner could do perfectly fine romanizations.

[Cyprene]

So how many words have been wasted on this topic?
And has anybody actually changed their minds because of them?

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by Cyprene

So how many words have been wasted on this topic?
And has anybody actually changed their minds because of them?

Internet forums are for meaningful discussion? Blasphemy!

-Tofu