Controversial Fansub Documentary

[cyth]

Originally Posted by alchemist11

I disagree with this statement. There are actually well-known groups out there who try to be as professional as they can and have been for a long while now. I know of one particularly and won't name who, but they also add the whole lot, SFX, AFX, Karaoke, Signs, TS, etc. And yes, they WANT to, they won't even release if a single Sign is missing.

That's called perfectionism, not professionalism.

That's ridiculous. Most leechers don't give a rats arse about Karaoke, one word AFX TS (note, this is coming from someone who actually likes them - but only when/if I archive them), and other things that take time and delay releases. As said before by many on this thread, they go for the fastest (even if its speed subbed via Chinese Translations *looks at Chihiro*).

That's a bit of an oxymoron if you ask me. Aren't you forgetting that fansubbers come from regular leecher crowds, especially these days when subtitling tools are easy to obtain and use? Almost anybody can take part in the fansubbing process. If people were that opposed to existing ways of fansubbing, they would do it differently themselves. An example: A new wave of fansubbers hit the scene approx. 3 years ago that wanted to release things in H.264/MKV. Through perseverance, they convinced the majority to start releasing in that format. Or softsubs; remember how just a few years ago hardsubs were still the norm? My point is, folks who thought something needed to change in the fansubbing business changed it (to a degree), and here we are today. Actions speak louder than words, so if you think fansubs don't need all the frills, do something about it.

Actually, this debate is set on a wrong set of preconditions. We were led to defend controversial techniques some fansubbers use, but the fact is most fansubbers do not leave substantial amounts of words untranslated, they do not insert excessive amounts of notes etc. The Mighty Otaking used examples of techniques that are by no means common. He also failed to mention that fansubbers do get a lot of flak for arguable techniques like that, but what's more disturbing is that he tried to portray those examples as the norm.

[dj_tjerk]

Originally Posted by MightyOtaking

...Johnson makes a good point here about the lengths to which some fansubbers treat the language as “holy”–if even conservative Bible translators who DO think the text is holy can agree that some images can’t be rendered literally, why can’t fansubbers working in an entertainment medium do so? Is it that important?"
I think that about sums it up. Or maybe he's a "troll" too?

PS - for the rest of you, I NEVER ONCE IN MY VIDEO said that signs shouldn't be translated. Of course they should. Just not obtrusively plastered over the artwork itself.

Two thoughts... You say here translate to a normal WORD instead of a saying. Having a short nose in Hebrew is (I guess), more of a saying than a word. If (I don't know if there even is,) there is a saying in English that conveys the same meaning, it's fun for you English guys. In dutch there's something like "een kort lontje hebben" (literally translated "having a short fuse"). Now that's kinda weird, i know, and maybe a little simplistic, but as a dutch viewer of English subs, translating one (japanese) saying to another (english), still doesnt help me. Like tofusensei with his "alfalfa"/"cowlick" thing.. I need a note for that :P

So translating not to another saying but to 'normal' words as the guy described (patience/forgiving) is also good for international guys. But you were all about translating for the same experience, and using normal words instead of a saying just makes it lose some of that. It's quite a dilemma (but i hope you see that fansubs target an international audience, so most people don't know english sayings either).

Next the signs.. you don't want them plastered over the artwork.. k.. where else? You don't want notes either? But you do want to know what it says. I'm sorta pro cutting out the original japanese (hell, who that watches fansubs knows what it says) and placing the english there instead (so you don't get those awkward situations like that graveyard/funeral example). Also, it makes life more easier as you don't have to make the original japanese smaller, or make more room for it in another way; you just cut it out, and do something that has the same 'feeling' to it. In case of that graveyard scene, you'd be stuck with a stone with an english name on it in the midst of Japanese stones with Japanese names. Also awkward :P

Now I wonder.. what's your look on this matter? (Also.. translating and afx'ing every sign is a bitch, only some of em are important; /me points to Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei.. not blended in that nicely I agree (small understatement), but not knowing what some signs said would be even worse I guess; you'd miss out on a lot of fun.)

[Kuukai]

Originally Posted by Ayanami9870

Access, I know you may be able to answer this question better than I can, but isn't it true that in the past, translators were once paid hourly wages for professional translations?

It did, and actually still does, although it's a lot less prevalent now than it used to be, due to translators getting more recognition for their work these days. The norm now is generally by word, or by character. Or, with movies and TV shows, it can go by minute, with adjustable rates depending on the difficulty of the source material.
But still, in the subtitling field, lots of translators have to work with ridiculous conditions and deadlines to translate (and time) their scripts, and getting an hourly wage isn't that uncommon. Add that to DVD standard and character limitations, and you have some very unhappy subtitlers. No wonder they're not as proud of/in love with their work as (most) fansubbers tend to be.

[outlawed]

Hecto Fansubs proved that bad translations can get titles licensed in the USA.

Their translation of PRESENTATION OF ESTABLISHMENT (Kakugo no Susume aka Apocalypse Zero) was win.

/thread over


P.S. Otaking. There were arguments about fansub ethics constantly but flames about translation quality were a lot more rare on TAFMAL. At any rate most of the good posters abandoned it because it got old real fast =p

Grats on successful troll?

[Access]

Originally Posted by Ayanami9870

Access, I know you may be able to answer this question better than I can, but isn't it true that in the past, translators were once paid hourly wages for professional translations? I've heard of amounts ranging from $25-110/hr depending on the difficulty of the show, like Akazukin Chacha and Kodocha. Maybe that's where the difference lies. Translators definitely do it for free now, and maybe that would explain what Otaking sees; where these so-called fundamentals started breaking down, as Otaking would charge.

If that is indeed true, then I would reckon that, between people who make it a hobby about sheer challenge, and people who see fansubbing as a professional language service (illegality aside), we're going to see a dropoff of the latter because they're doing it for free compared to the past.

I don't remember who did it first, but I remember 'sponsorship' being the norm for most of Sachi's subs and a few other of the VHS subbers. Post-1996 if I remember correctly. Fans were the ones who paid something on the order of $60. an episode to pay some of the costs associated with that episode, and in exchange they got their name in the credits, on the website, some kind of recognition like that. And I know there were some subbers doing their own translations, but ones who could not were paying translators, something like $50. an episode.

I wouldn't say it was that as much as who the subs were aimed at. People were timing and editing their own subs once they got it back from the translator. Here is something to consider, I think I brought this up already, the subs back then were typically shown alongside commercial stuff in a 'club' environment with many people watching. A single person watching on a computer can pause the video to read a long note / explanation. You can't do this in a club environment. Now it's not to say I didn't know of clubs where a bunch of perverted guys watching Sailor Moon would pause and slow-step through her transformation sequence. But that wasn't the norm, most were just watching things straight-through. In the rare case there were notes, they were at the beginning (or end) of the episode.

[Gsus]

I skimmed through most posts in this thread (and completely ignoring the most obvious stoopid posts) after watching the video, but I have to say, he has some good points.

It's jarring to say the least to see multiple lines of text in multiple places at once while actually trying to focus on the show itself. A more elegant solution would either be text / pdf files extra's, prefacing or using the spaces between eye-catches in the episode itself with translation notes, or work it into the sub itself.

And on the subject of leaving in Japanese words in the translation: What's the point of translating it then? My Blade of the Immortal books don't leave them, most of my official anime DVDs don't leave them in, my Murakami books don't leave them in, and they work fine without them. The point is getting the meaning of what is spoken or written across. Subtle nuances in honorifics and speech can be translated into English. Jay Rubin mentioned as much in one of his Appendices to his Murakami "biography":

The Japanese language is so different from English - even when used by a writer as Americanized as Murakami - that true literal translation is impossible, and the translator's subjective processing is inevitably going to play a large part: That processing is a good thing; it involves a continual critical questioning of the meaning of the text. The last thing you want is a translator who believes he or she is a totally passive medium for passing one set of grammatical structures into another: then you're going to get mindless garbage, not literature.

Jay Rubin, Haruki Murakami and the Music of Words, page 317.

And I have to refer to Natrone's excellent commentary on this subject. Fans who insists on their moonspeak in their translated anime send off the wrong signals to the major companies that bring anime to the west.

Originally Posted by Natrone

The anime industry cannot sustain itself on a group of people who are only interested in anime because it’s different and allows them to speak in ways that alienates everyone (...), because eventually such a group (which was undoubtedly be small to begin with) will lose interest and focus on something else that is different and clashes with social norms.

. Do we really want to see another Geneon USA?

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by Gsus

I skimmed through most posts in this thread (and completely ignoring the most obvious stoopid posts) after watching the video, but I have to say, he has some good points.

Sure some of his points are valid but he's stereotyping all fansubbers as doing the extreme things he cherrypicked for his examples. That's where people have taken most offense.

I, for one, want a medium where people can do whatever the hell they want. It's like open source programming. It's a beautiful thing that we can have exceptional fansubs and absolute crap coexisting in a (usually) harmonious environment. There's no need to shoehorn any constraints on our very open movement.

In regards to sending the wrong message to licensors... They need to be more responsible in their market research then.

And who's to say that if the bulk of fans truly want to keep honorifics (the verdict is out on that one) then the industry shouldn't cater to them? I don't agree with it personally but this is a cash game, my friend.

-Tofu

[Quarkboy]

We could take the argument further, even, and say that in the long run it might be in the industry's best interest to retain japanese words like "imouto" and suffixes.

Why? It could be considered as "creating a market". Sure, at the moment you have a generically uneducated populace that knows little about the Japanese language and culture, and thus requires things like suffixes and jokes translated in a way they can understand. But if they industry slowly introduces suffixes and begins to essentially create a market for non-localized anime translations, then in the end it's less work for them to do, and in a way makes the market for anime itself in the west stronger as it brings the audience closer to that of the original Japanese audience.

You could even say that releases of all those "moe" shows recently is another attempt to re-educate the R1 market into something closer to the R2 market.

People told Apple they were crazy when they started selling the macintosh, telling them that there was no demand for people to have a computer in their own homes, and indeed there wasn't at the time, but Apple CREATED that market by providing a product that was worthwhile. So sometimes, I guess I'm saying, supply creates demand.

I don't really believe this is true in this case, however, but I could see how one could make this sort of argument.

[Skane]

English is already the bastardised rape-child of the world's languages anyway. Shoving a few more foreign words into its lexicon-butt wouldn't hurt much at this point, and indeed... foreign words get assimilated into the dictionaries on a regular basis.

Language is not stagnant. If Language A is inadequate in explaining Language B's slang, or Language B has a more concise way of describing something compared to the Language A equivalent; then evolution/adaptation/assimilation is inevitable. When it happens is the only question.

This is one of the reasons why we do not commonly speak in the tongues of Shakespearian old.

Due to this, I usually find it irrational whenever people try to extol the virtues of localisation. English is not some "pure, pristine and virginal" language, where we must not stain it with "foreign words".

Humanity is capable of learning (please, please, cease your cynical laughing ). Words like Sake, Bento, Sushi, etc... were Japanese in origin, but have been more or less assimilated into common English usage already (through the powers of marketing).

How about "Jungle"? That was adapted from Sanskrit; or the musical term, "Suite", which is French in origin? There is literally a whole world of immigrant words in English.

So while some common anime terms may not be mainstream yet, why stunt English's evolution by refusing to use them? Especially if it allows for a more meaningful language in the future.

Cheers.

[creamyhorror]

Originally Posted by Toua

A new wave of fansubbers hit the scene approx. 3 years ago that wanted to release things in H.264/MKV. Through perseverance, they convinced the majority to start releasing in that format. Or softsubs; remember how just a few years ago hardsubs were still the norm? My point is, folks who thought something needed to change in the fansubbing business changed it (to a degree), and here we are today. Actions speak louder than words, so if you think fansubs don't need all the frills, do something about it.

Actually, this debate is set on a wrong set of preconditions. We were led to defend controversial techniques some fansubbers use, but the fact is most fansubbers do not leave substantial amounts of words untranslated, they do not insert excessive amounts of notes etc. The Mighty Otaking used examples of techniques that are by no means common. He also failed to mention that fansubbers do get a lot of flak for arguable techniques like that, but what's more disturbing is that he tried to portray those examples as the norm.

So much I agree with in both these two paragraphs. Thanks for putting it so succinctly.

Also, dj_tjerk, I personally dislike AFXers replacing the original Japanese signs totally, although I don't know how alone I am in that opinion.

[dj_tjerk]

Originally Posted by creamyhorror

So much I agree with in both these two paragraphs. Thanks for putting it so succinctly.

Also, dj_tjerk, I personally dislike AFXers replacing the original Japanese signs totally, although I don't know how alone I am in that opinion.

Any reason why you dislike it? I personally think that leaving the japanese (=gibberish) disturbs me/distracts me from what needs my attention. I also directly seek for changes in appearance between the original and what looks to be a translation inserted by a 1337 typesetter (and sometimes I DO wonder if it wasnt there in the first place.. quite disturbing ;P)

[creamyhorror]

dj_tjerk: For one thing, it's not gibberish to me (or other people who know some Japanese). Secondly, they're part of the original artwork of the show, actual elements that were drawn as part of the scene. Replacing it completely seems like disrespect to me. (In before "lol fansubs are illegal and more than disrespectful anyway".) It's also weird to see some stuff set in Japan completely English-ized. I'd rather have the signs softsubbed and removable, really, but retaining the original Japanese lettering should be a minimum in my opinion.

[TheFluff]

Originally Posted by MightyOtaking

Excellent quote from Michael at Anime Diet, who has researched Biblical Translation:

" In Biblical Hebrew, to have a “short nose” is to have a short temper; likewise, when the Bible describes God as “slow to anger,” it literally says he has a “long nose” (Ex 34:6).

Now, if you wanted to be 100% literal, you’d put that down: God has a “long nose.” But imagine you are a modern day American reader, picking up the Bible for the first time. You come across the image described there; what’s your first thought when you read “long nose”? Pinocchio, probably, and why did he have a long nose? He was a liar. So without explanation, it’s going to read like: God is a liar, like Pinocchio. This is clearly not what the text meant!

If one was like a modern fansubber, the text would still say “long nose,” but with a footnote below that explains: “a Hebrew metaphor for anger.” You’d have to look down at the footnote to actually understand what was going on, breaking the flow of the reading. Wouldn’t it be easier to simply translate it as “patience” or “forgiving”? It turns the intention, the thought, into clear understandable English.

...Johnson makes a good point here about the lengths to which some fansubbers treat the language as “holy”–if even conservative Bible translators who DO think the text is holy can agree that some images can’t be rendered literally, why can’t fansubbers working in an entertainment medium do so? Is it that important?"


I think that about sums it up. Or maybe he's a "troll" too?

why hello there mr. strawman, nice to meet you

Originally Posted by MightyOtaking

I see the debate rages on. I see the word "troll" is also used to describe anyone whose opinion differs from that of fansubbers.

No, it is used to describe people who say dumb things on the internet, so other dumb people get incredibly annoyed and go on to post long threads on internet forums about how upset they are about the dumb things being said so laughs at how dumb they are can be had by the original speaker of dumb things; and so all the local retards come out of the woodwork to jump on the retard bus as it rattles through the neighborhood constantly honking.

While this can be amusing, there is a difference between a good troll and a bad one, and even though stupidity can be entertaining in small to medium doses, there are limits.


NINJA EDIT: to avoid getting called a troll (me, a troll! WHY I NEVER) maybe I should state my stance on extreme localization versus extreme non-localization.
Of course, in general translating everything is preferable, but at times (particularly in books, less so in video; less room and time for the notes) it might be warranted to put a note to explain some cultural quirk, an untranslatable play on words that has importance to the plot, or what have you. On shows with a lot of pop culture references, historical references or other untranslatable things it might be worth it to attach a separate document with notes to help viewers understand the story (and this has been done a few times by various fansubbers). I do not think that localizing such a show to the extent that it is completely adapted to the target language culture (as in replacing Japanese or Chinese historical references with western ones) is acceptable; that would be rewriting the story, not translating it.

On the other hand, I'm not an average viewer. I (obviously) prefer reading books/watching movies in the original language over a translation. Sadly I don't know Japanese (yet) but I'm quite interested in East Asian culture (not so interested in American culture). So this is what I personally prefer, with my own limited knowledge of Japan and Japanese: on the matter of honorifics, I don't really care that much since you can hear what people call each other anyway, but in a book or a manga I'd prefer that they were kept because I'm seriously interested in what people say to each other, rather a translator's more or less clumsy attempt to convey the same thing in such a different language as English. Puns can sometimes be replaced by a more or less equivalent English pun, but sometimes the pun is shown on screen as well in which case it's usually impossible to replace it; a note should be made instead. Historical or other cultural references should be kept, with notes if necessary.

Now, since I'm not fansubbing out of the great kindness of my heart (hah) or to please other people (it's impossible to please everyone anyway), but rather primarily to please myself, and I'm not getting anything whatsoever (except fansubs) out of it (instead I, or at least people like me, pay server fees etc. out of our own pockets) I'm not going to give a shit about what the average viewer or Mr. Random Youtube Troll thinks or wants. I'll do it myself the way I personally like it, thank you very much. If you point out something in a release of mine that is wrong, I'll probably correct it, but this is simply a matter of preference, and I don't like you or your preference.

If you don't like it, I suggest you either go complain on the internet about it, or contact a commercial distributor in your country, I'm sure they'd be happy to supply you with a more easily digestible translation. If you paid for it. But I also suggest you hurry because the R1 industry is dying. I know, because I helped kill it, and I'm still laughing at it.

[BadGuy]

Oh god please forgive whomever made me read this thread and had me reply... for my full on < 10 post in like... erm ages? Honestly... what's all the moaning all the time about how we all fansub. I've been fansubbing for alot of years now and steared away clean from all the comments and crap. That is my own preference ofcourse (somehow encoders have a tendency to get into all of this... I guess they feel somehow more responsible for the end product, and I hardly get comments on my English usage and the rare occasion I still do typesetting).

However TheFluff (until his obvious trolling last paragraph) had a good point (forgive me if I make anyone barf in that bit). You should fansub things the way you damn well like it. If you don't like it do it better yourself. If you don't have any type of quality to work on fansubs... i.e. don't have the time (ANYONE can time/typeset, you just need to take the time to do it and improve), don't go about complaining about how we translate/edit/encode/distribute the fansubs we helped create. Somehow people think that without them watching our fansubs we wouldn't be here, and that we're here to serve to their every little pissy need. It's been said before, and I'll say it again... if only I hadn't forgotten the witty phrase that I wanted to use here... but the gist of it is "we do what we want and we're stuck-up pompous twats, if you can do better then feel free to do so. I will meet you on the battle field wearing a kilt and my face painted with my Missus' pink lipstick.

[日本ひきこもり協会]

A bit off topic:

Originally Posted by BadGuy

and I hardly get comments on my English usage and the rare occasion I still do typesetting).

alot of years, ofcourse.

Anyways while I have to agree with you and the rest that everyone is free to do whatever they want, it's kind of sad what people put out. Just when I remember AEN's GSG2 or ARIA the Origination releases without any punctuation I get irritated. Thankfully we still have some groups who care about such things.

[Flame-X]

i miss the good old fansubs back in the days..

it would save fansubbers a lot of time by NOT doing karaoke or footnotes crap.

[Jaka]

not like I give a shit, but does anyone realize that otaking is a translator for the r1 industry?

lol

[asunder]

Originally Posted by Jaka

not like I give a shit, but does anyone realize that otaking is a translator for the r1 industry?

lol

doubtful, he lives in the UK.

from the internet:

I am a karaoke god, Lead Artist for independent games company Studio Trophis, and freelance Japanese-English video games translator

Well! I have secured a lovely book deal to translate some manga-related novels. Which is good because I was just about to starve to death. I can't say what I'm working on because it's uber top secret non-disclosure stuff, but let's just hope that they don't mess around with the final product too much and it should turn out pretty excellent!

[Jaka]

Originally Posted by asunder

doubtful, he lives in the UK.

from the internet:

idk...
he might not be from the r1 industry, but he is a professional translator.

OtaKing77077 (5 days ago) Show Hide
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Nope. I get paid for translating video games and novels mainly, so it doesn't affect me at all.
I just hate seeing a once great and noble thing reduced to online cock-waving.

1st part page 5

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by Jaka

idk...
he might not be from the r1 industry, but he is a professional translator.

I already said that quite a few of the fansubbers whom he is bashing are moonlighting as professional translators too. I'm not sure what your point is. I'd venture to say there are quite a few "amateur" translators with much more extensive CVs than his.

-Tofu