Abilities and Technologies: Speculation based on Science, Metaphysics, and Magic

[entei08]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

do you see it now? it wasnt kakines char who said that, it was the omniscient "word of god"

Now the position of the #1 and #2 of Academy City was about to be reversed. This was neither a bluff nor an exaggeration. He now believed even if he fought against all the armies in the world, and even every esper in Academy City, he could emerge victorious and unharmed.

The same word of god, no?

[LevelSeven]

the word of god (funny) said also:

he believed

he described the inner thoughts of a char which are flawed...

this is common in literature where the author wants to make the situation more "realistic" (the chars more "three dimensional")[ my opinion]

this cant be compared with a statement like: his abilitys was based on the legend blabla....

i hope you understand what i try to say

[Miraluka]

You're stretching it too much and now everyone tells you how wrong you are LevelSeven.

[LevelSeven]

^ why?

i think it is completly clear, it is even written in the novels but if people simply ignore it than i can understand why accels ability section is so "flawed"

[Miraluka]

Deal with it =D

[entei08]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

the word of god (funny) said also:

he believed

he described the inner thoughts of a char which are flawed...

this is common in literature where the author wants to make the situation more "realistic" (the chars more "three dimensional")[ my opinion]

this cant be compared with a statement like: his abilitys was based on the legend blabla....

i hope you understand what i try to say

The elementary particles that didn’t exist in this world, Dark Matter.

Great, I guess Aiwass is made of Dark Matter too, and by that extension, everything in the Aeon of Horus

This pair of black wings, Kakine had seen it before, and knew what it was.

Would this not also count as the inner thoughts of a character? Do you seriously believe that everything not made from the particles that exist in this world is the Dark Matter Kakine is using? Why is he even the spare then?

[LevelSeven]

Great, I guess Aiwass is made of Dark Matter too, and by that extension, everything in the Aeon of Horus

why are you comparing accels black wings/dark matter with aiwass or the aeon of horus....
did i say anything about them?
did the text said anything about them?

you always ignore the main point: the third teller helps the reader to understand what happens in the story right now,'he' helps the reader with extending information about the surrounding/why a certain character made a certain move/how he feels right now/etc.

so: the part where kakine things that he can solo the toaru world was a extendet Info about "why he acted that way", it helped the reader to understand why kakine was so sure that he wins....
the part of their fight: was a extendet Info about "surrounding" and "what happens right now", it helped the reader to understand what happened in that moment... it explained the used powers (since in toaru, nothing happens without a 'reason')

Would this not also count as the inner thoughts of a character?

no, this is a completly different case, wog helped the reader with extended infos about kakine, about a char...

would their be: "kakine thought that the wings are made out of dark matter, something he understood completly "

than it would be the same....

Do you seriously believe that everything not made from the particles that exist in this world is the Dark Matter Kakine is using?

Did i say something like that? where did you come to this idea?

Why is he even the spare then?

he is the spar because: accel had a different power than dark matter, but after he reached a certain point he gained dark matter as Second ability....
dark matter is what a being is able to use after he/she regradless of first power (the same was with mikoto) powered up high enough...
therefore: spar, or second plan....

[entei08]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

why are you comparing accels black wings/dark matter with aiwass or the aeon of horus....
did i say anything about them?
did the text said anything about them?

How about actually reading ALL of the quote? Word of god described the wings as

The elementary particles that didn’t exist in this world

. That was the definition of Dark Matter, you agreed with this, right? Aiwass is a being out of this world, what would you say about him? Simply put, stop labeling everything that is not made from

The elementary particles that didn’t exist in this world

as Dark Matter, this is simply too broad a definition. While Dark Matter is indeed not from this world, the converse is not true.

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

after he reached a certain point he gained dark matter as Second ability....
dark matter is what a being is able to use after he/she regradless of first power (the same was with mikoto) powered up high enough...
therefore: spar, or second plan....

Not only is this false, it also makes no sense. There is no evidence that suggest Mikoto's evolved powers are Dark Matter. You are telling me Dark Matter is only useful if it emerges as a "second ability"? That's just bull

[Doom_Paperclip]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

@doom

the dagger of etzali was also made out of natural matrials, the pastel chalk of sherry too....

Im sure IB would have negated his memories if it could only touch izzards brain, the place where his memories are, since they was used as medium they turned into a distortion, the same as the pastel chalk or etzalis dagger, IT/dragon managed to touch that place without harming izzards body, it negated the "core" and with that it negated his memories.....
they said it in vol.2 epilogue, izzard wasnt injured, than styil theorized than that the dragon was a mass of izzards fears, which is wrong.....
Thanks, railgun

Your reasoning is flawed. It has already been proven that IB can undo magical manipulation of memories just by touching the head of the victim. Touma did not have to open up his cranium to directly touch his brain, just scratching his head was enough to restore the memories suppressed by Ars Magna. In other words, the human skull is not an obstacle to IB. If IB viewed magical knowledge as a distortion, then any Magician punched by IB should be suffering from memory loss.

Spiritual Items may be made from natural materials, but they've been treated in such a way that makes their structure inherently magical. When IB touches them, those structures are undone, resulting in destruction as a side effect. Aureolus' memories, however, were mundane in nature. To begin with, the core of Ars Magna was his thoughts, not his memories. According to your theory that his "core" was affected, he should have been turned into a catatonic vegetable.

I stand by my point. IB would not have been able to affect Aureolus' memories. The fact that the Dragon did proves that it is more than just a bigger IB.

Originally Posted by tsunade666

you have seen dark matter in awaken mode right? it still dark matter in its core. It didn't change even after awakening. it just awaken a new power too it.

even mikoto who has partial awaken. has a nature of lightning.

This is ignoring Mikoto's claims that the Black Sphere she conjured was not her Esper power, or any Esper power at all for that matter. Awakening is not merely an extension of the user's ability, it brings forth a new power entirely. That new power can be used in concert with the user's original ability, but it is nevertheless distinct. It is true that Kakine did not go past Dark Matter, but this is because his percentage to Level 6 is lower than that of Accelerator and Mikoto 5.5, hence he is only a spare plan.

[tsunade666]

Even if Kakine didn't go past dark matter. It didn't matter because dark matter is ever evolving. Didn't Kakine say it already that he can eventually used other abilities by probably copying their brain as long as he had the date for it.

He is like Rensa without the brain quantity problem because he could just create another one(probably) Plus saying that Mikoto 5.5 has level in nearing level 6 is preposterous. Dark Matter kakine can't be even measured easily because he enters the field of infinite possibilities.

[Doom_Paperclip]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

Even if Kakine didn't go past dark matter. It didn't matter because dark matter is ever evolving. Didn't Kakine say it already that he can eventually used other abilities by probably copying their brain as long as he had the date for it.

He is like Rensa without the brain quantity problem because he could just create another one(probably) Plus saying that Mikoto 5.5 has level in nearing level 6 is preposterous. Dark Matter kakine can't be even measured easily because he enters the field of infinite possibilities.

You know, there is a difference between "infinite" and "all encompassing". There are infinite numbers between 0 and 1, yet you won't find 2 amongst them. Just because Dark Matter has infinite possibilities doesn't preclude the possibility that there are things it simply can't do no matter how much it evolves.

While Kakine probably will be able to create Dark Matter puppets that have other Esper's abilities, I'm willing to bet that there will be issues with this. For instance:

1) The Sisters have proven that copying an Esper's brain may let you copy their ability, but it doesn't let you copy their level. Any Dark Matter puppets using another Esper as a base would wield the ability at a lower level than the original.

2) Dark Matter puppets with another Esper's ability would not be able to use Dark Matter themselves, making them dependent on Dark Matter bodies that can. This would limit their range of use.

As for Mikoto 5.5, I see nothing preposterous about stating that she was nearing Level 6. Sure, she would self-destruct upon reaching it, but the point is that she could have reached that point and was half-way there before she was stopped. Gensei even had a description of what would happen to Mikoto at various percentages of Level 6 achievement and all.

[tsunade666]

No, my point about mikoto being closer to level 6 than dark matter kakine. If you rate the current kakine. What level would he be? I'm not denying that mikoto reach level 5.5. I'm denying that she is nearer on reaching it than dark matter kakine or white wings accelerator.

[Doom_Paperclip]

^The way I see it, Mikoto 5.5 at her final stages is closer to Level 6 than Awakened Kakine, but farther away than White Winged, or even Black Winged, Accelerator. We both agree on the latter point, so lets focus on the part we actually disagree on.

No matter how you look at it, Kakine never managed to reach past his Esper power, he only managed to strengthen what he already had. This resembles the early stages of Mikoto 5.5, where she only experienced a massive power boost. After that, however, she reached beyond that to grasp a new power that was not her Esper ability. In doing so, she surpassed Kakine in Level 6 attainment.

For all that Dark Matter is one of the most broken abilities in TAMNI, it is still nothing more and nothing less than itself. It cannot compare to the power that fuels Accelerator's Wings, the same power that Mikoto 5.5 managed to conjure. Even Kakine at his most arrogant did not believe he could defeat Accelerator in winged mode. His whole strategy in case of such an eventuality was to wait for him to tire himself out of that mode before striking. In all likelihood, he wouldn't have been able to deal with the huge Black Sphere that Mikoto 5.5 conjured either.

[MShukyDeneuve]

That's why i believed the blood and flesh Teitoku hold more potential than the dark matter one (i really hope he somehow come back and take over the dark matter).

Dark Matter Teitoku is amazing, but it looks like he "trapped" on that level. He might come up with another idea about how he use Dark Matter, but it still Dark Matter while Mikoto and Accelerator proved can evolve more.

Is not Mikoto 5.5 considered too weak if we compared to the level 6 hype?
Or is a level 5.5 != have 50% power level of actual level 6??

[Birdway]

^
Kakine is trapped in the good and evil thing which Accelerator is free of since WWIII, Kakine needs to come to a realization or something like that.

Mikoto 5.5 is nothing compared to Ollerus or Fiamma though, and he the former is a failure of a magic god.

[Tartare25]

Or is a level 5.5 != have 50% power level of actual level 6??

Levels seems to be exponential to strength. Even 5.99 probably will be just 1% of real Level 6. Going by assumption that Level 6 is something like Magic God. Accelerator for example can't even be compared to others level 5. Much less any level 5 to level 4.5 like Move Point.

Why is he even the spare then?

Same how he can be spare plan for Othinus. Because Crowley doesn't need Dark Matter for his plan but it can be used to fix some holes when things go very wrong. It is easer for him to just use Accelerator than cheap imitation of him made of Dark Matter. Basically his ability is versatile enough to be infinitely useful but you need patience of a god to use it completely effective. You need a lot time or a lot a knowledge to create something truly useful even with Dark Matter. Spare plans are spare for a reason.

[entei08]

Originally Posted by Tartare25

Same how he can be spare plan for Othinus. Because Crowley doesn't need Dark Matter for his plan but it can be used to fix some holes when things go very wrong. It is easer for him to just use Accelerator than cheap imitation of him made of Dark Matter. Basically his ability is versatile enough to be infinitely useful but you need patience of a god to use it completely effective. You need a lot time or a lot a knowledge to create something truly useful even with Dark Matter. Spare plans are spare for a reason.

That was directed at Level7. He believed that Accelerator's black wings are the same as Kakine's Dark Matter. The whole point of that question is to try and get him to see the fact that if Dark Matter was really that special to Aleister's plan, enough for him to input it into Accelerator, then Kakine would not have been just the spare.

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by entei08

That was directed at Level7. He believed that Accelerator's black wings are the same as Kakine's Dark Matter. The whole point of that question is to try and get him to see the fact that if Dark Matter was really that special to Aleister's plan, enough for him to input it into Accelerator, then Kakine would not have been just the spare.

Dude, level7 is right that Accelerator's black/white wings is dark matter but even if its the same dark matter. IT DOESN'T MEAN IT HAS THE SAME PROPERTIES.

“Ha.”

This pair of black wings, Kakine had seen it before, and knew what it was.

The elementary particles that didn’t exist in this world, Dark Matter.

“… So strong. Such powerful evil. So you can do it if you put your mind to it, villain. If that’s the case then indeed Dark Matter is only suitable for being the spare plan. However, this doesn’t mean it’s all decided!!”

Kakine’s six wings, as if responding to his roar, spread explosively. The wings that spanned several tens of meters emitted a mysterious glow, and at the same time had an inorganic feel like a machine. Almost like a giant weapon gods and angels normally use.

Flap. The air around the six wings let out a howl.

Accelerator and Dark Matter controlled the organic and inorganic powers respectively.

Different from this world, this was 'organic' and 'inorganic' in terms of a different world. The One Who Wields the Power of God and The One Who Has Touched the Territory of God. Now the odds of victory were even, only that unlike Accelerator, Kakine hadn't lost himself.

An unprecedented power was expanding within him.

And, he had perfectly mastered this power.

Now the position of the #1 and #2 of Academy City was about to be reversed. This was neither a bluff nor an exaggeration. He now believed even if he fought against all the armies in the world, and even every esper in Academy City, he could emerge victorious and unharmed.

And your asking why Kakine is a spare? then look at his capabilities before the black wings even emerge.

Kakine is a spare because his narrow minded and his processing power is still lower than Accelerator who is already brain damage.

Your making a wrong point here. The reason that Kakine is a spare because he is not the best suited for the job. Its easy as that. PLUS dark matter is just infinitely flexible for the job that even Othinus used it but that still didn't change that its still a spare plan.

[entei08]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

Dude, level7 is right that Accelerator's black/white wings is dark matter but even if its the same dark matter. IT DOESN'T MEAN IT HAS THE SAME PROPERTIES.

Then why even call it dark matter? Just because it is out of this world? It is clearly above Kakine's power and comprehension, capable of making Accelerator speak angel and have Index label it as being potentially more than what a saint could handle. Just like there's no way Mikoto's last attack that ripped off Touma's arm can still be called a ball of lightning.

Also the Kakine being a spare thing was supposed to be rhetorical. Kakine acknowledges that he's the spare after seeing the wings, sensing that they are just out of his league, although he grossly underestimated the margin. Although I think Kakine would not know the whole picture of the plan anyway, so the credit of his assumptions are questionable

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by entei08

Then why even call it dark matter? Just because it is out of this world?

Most likely but being Kakine who is the one that should know most of it.

But remember. Dark matter is equal to unknown matter. its just a classification in scientific way.

like one classify solid, liquid or gas. Unknown elements that has alien laws or unknown properties can be classified as dark matter by science side.

The difference between number 1 and 2 is clearly as day and night.

number 1 is the one who holds the power of god while number 2 is the who touch the territory of god.

Isn't that both clear? both has the word "god" in it but I think its clear which is higher because the other one only manage to touch it while the other holds it.