The fact that you don't care about the author's perspective means there is absolutely no truth we can discuss about. Therefore there is no point in arguing whether shkanon is true or not. If you like to think shkanon is false, be my guest.
Sorry for going a bit OOT, but I want to ask something about this. Is this what Ryukishi trying to portray during that Ange vs Bern scene in ep 8? I mean the part where Ange believes in her own truth even though it might not be the real truth at all...
Yes, that's right, I'll disagree with the author who can't provide solid answers.
You forgot the fact that HE was the author . There's no way that he didn't know the answers to Umineko sound novel. The interview thing was Ryukishin's way to give hints about the series so please understand that.
I forgot to mention the thing about the Red truth. I remember Ryukishin said in one of his interviews that the red truth was the word of god. Ryukishin was the author of umineko so he must be the god in umineko. With that in mind I can safely say that everything he told us in his inverviews about umineko can be considered a Red truth.
Last edited by unsuspectingvisitor; 2012-01-01 at 03:22.
Location: In the Meta- World... on Virgillia's bed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo
You aren't asking for hints, you are asking for proofs. Hints are subtle by definition, you are asking for something that isn't subtle at all. It is only natural that some people will not recognize a hint for what it is, but if you had some humility you'd recognize that those were hints after all once the truth is revealed, but you don't.
Again, calm down, you don't know anything better than I do, so I would suggest that you be humble with your speech.
Now, I know what a hint is, I can recognize one when I see it, and I'm not saying that none of the stuff in Umineko are hints. I'm saying they're too subjective for me, what you take as a hint is just another "big question" for me to answer.
Here are a few parts of Umineko that were hints to me:
Shannon's BS in EP7
The Love Duel in EP6
The Eva- Culprit Theory from EP3
The Battler's Family Culprit Theory from EP8
Naturally there's more than that, but the commonality between is that they contain facts. Shannon's BS was formed from the fact that she and Kanon cannot be together in front of the detective. The Love Duel was formed from the fact that Shannon and Kanon cannot be happy together for some odd reason. And the thing about all these facts is that ask the question "Why?" This is all I ask for from Ryukishi to prove his point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo
Your claim that the author's word is irrelevant is absolutely unreasonable from my perspective.
There is no inherent truth in a story, a story is fiction, it doesn't exist. The only truth you can look for in a story is what the author meant his story to be. If the author didn't think about a truth for his story, therefore there is simply no truth. For example if Ryuukishi never decided who among Furfur and Zepar is male (which is probably the case), then there is simply no truth about that.
I'm not denying that Ryukishi has an intended truth, in fact I trust in alot of the stuff he says. I listen to the stuff he says, noting it in my head, but if what he says isn't backed up by what he writes, it amounts to nothing. All it becomes is just him trying to fill in gaps he knows he has left behind. But I don't believe that's the case. I believe that he wants me to find some intended truth, and I will. But since I can't see any hints to what that truth is, I'll just come up with my own deductions and hope that I'm close.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo
You can discuss about things that have no truth, but you can't argue about them. If there is no truth then there can't be anyone right or wrong, and it's pointless to discuss about it.
I agree with you, but that's not the case here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo
If you like to think shkanon is false, be my guest.
I've been saying that for I don't know how long and now you decide to take this stance on it?
@AuraTwilight: Yeah, I know, but I have hope. I've at least found stuff that's straight- forward enough to be objective, like Shannon's BS. That to me confirms that Shannon and Kanon are not meant to be in front of the detective at the same time, so I can at least take that as objective. The Love Duel's somewhat straight- forward but still enough to be fact.
@unsuspectingvisitor: I know he's the author. I know full well that he's the author. But to me, its Creator says one thing, Creation says another. Its like God created a little boy, then states that the little boy has six fingers. You look at the boy, and there's only five. So where's the sixth finger? I'm not saying that his word doesn't mean anything, especially since alot of what he says is the basis of my perspectives on the story, but there's a point where I expect his answers to match up with his work, and his work doesn't even hint to what he said. Really, its not what he said that I'm denying, its the way he said it.
Last edited by ErenselTheJester; 2012-01-01 at 03:47.
EDIT 2/1/12: It turns out that the scans this summary was based on were missing a couple of pages and were partially out of order. The missing parts don't add any substantial information, but I'll link a corrected version here once I've posted it.
---
Well, this ended up being more detailed than I intended, but here's my summary of Our Confession. I also did a full translation of Dlanor's foreword and a couple speeches that seemed important or interesting.
A couple points beforehand:
The manuscript proper has both game board narration by Piece-Beatrice and notes by Meta-Beatrice. I used "Beato" for the meta one and "Piece-Beatrice" for the game board one.
If anyone knows who that aide of Dlanor's is, let me know and I'll fix the name.
Spoiler for Dlanor and Beato:
Beato is going over the plan for her latest game board with Dlanor. It's still a work in progress. She explains that turning the plan into a proper story is the hardest part, and making the surface plot work with the hidden plot is harder than actually working out the tricks. She's always writing two stories at the same time, a fantasy and a mystery, but she only reveals half of it. It's like cooking only a small part of a cow and throwing out the rest.
Dlanor calls it extravagant, but also regrettable. She says that if people saw the discarded portion, they might be impressed with the taste and the bold cuts, but without that, most wouldn't be as discerning as Beato would like. Although Beato claims that she writes for only one in a thousand people, she actually wishes that the other 999 people would enjoy it too. It's foolish to deny herself that by burying her own story in darkness.
Beato says it's alright if her story has a strange taste to it that only one in a thousand can enjoy, since it's written by a witch. Dlanor counters that her job is to use the ten commandments to make such stories understandable to everyone. Beato agrees, which is why she doesn't really want to hand the story over to her. Dlanor says she understands; Beato isn't looking for everyone to understand her, but she does want at least one person to. Dlanor wants to help that happen by releasing Beato's incomplete story someday, including the parts that would normally be discarded.
She compares Beato to a girl in love who wants someone to understand her heart, but talks about it with difficult words, waiting for a single prince. Beato agrees, saying that witches can also want someone to understand their hearts. Dlanor says that if that prince doesn't appear for Beato, she'll lead the way with the Knox commandments. And if that doesn't work, she'll release the incomplete story, which will become a key to Beato's world. Beato says that would be like a girl being too embarrassed to confess in person and making her friend do it for her, but Dlanor replies that love can come into being that way too.
Beato caves in and agrees to give her the manuscript. However, she seals it in a bottle to be opened only in case of her death. People who reach the truth via the bottle story won't be able to talk to her about it, but the prince she's waiting for is one who doesn't need the bottle. No one can love a cat after tearing its guts out, and the bottle story is her guts.
Dlanor agrees to her terms and wishes her luck. Beato says that even if someone managed to reach her, the witches in the Sea of Fragments are cruel and might just spit him back out. Dlanor tells her that if she writes stories that only people with love can see, she ought to have some love for those girls too. Without love, she might not be able to see her own prince. Dlanor asks her not to forget the many witches who have love, and bids her farewell. Ronove leads her out.
Spoiler for Dlanor's Foreword:
As a result of Lady Beatrice's death, I am releasing this incomplete tale in accordance with her will.
In reading this work, I was reminded of her long years of sadness, and couldn't hold back my tears.
But at the same time, I felt pity for her.
Although she was searching for someone who had love, I am sad to say that ironically, her heart was filled with anger at those who did not.
She once told me that it was fine if her story reached only one person in a thousand.
However, that was wrong.
Out of those thousand people, she wished her story would reach even one more person.
If you asked her, she would surely laugh and deny it.
But those were without question her true feelings.
In the beginning, I was uncertain about releasing this manuscript. I thought that I should hide it, so as to preserve her mystery for the one-in-a-thousand savior she spoke so often about. But as I read and reread it... I began to realize that the manuscript was a message with no destination address.
It was a wish that even she never realized she had.
But now I understand it, and I think it should be granted.
That is the reason I decided to release this incomplete manuscript.
After you read this, it doesn't matter whether your feelings toward the woman named Beatrice are love or anger.
But if you can, try to reach her feelings, buried in the deepest part of the story.
She said that she wrote two stories and revealed one.
However, that was also wrong.
She wrote three stories and revealed one.
By reading this incomplete manuscript, you will know two of those stories.
I would like you to reach the third and final one with your own power.
As another woman, I strongly wish that of those reading this work.
Without love, it can't be seen.
They are her words.
But I shall repeat them.
Love exists in everyone's hearts.
Her true tragedy was that she couldn't see it.
My deepest thanks go out to everyone who helped with the compilation of this book.
Especially my assistant, アン ズー.
-- Dlanor A. Knox
Spoiler for Accomplices:
Beato decides to make Krauss and Natsuhi accomplices this time. Since Natsuhi is so prideful, it's unlikely that she would cooperate with a frightening incident like this just in exchange for money. It'll be necessary to corner her and take away any option to resist. Beato decides to have Piece-Beatrice wait until the storm hits, then secretly lead Krauss and Natsuhi to the gold room and threaten them by revealing the time bomb device. With contact to the outside world already cut off, they'll have to agree to cooperate or everyone will die, not just the sacrifices.
After dark on October 4th, Piece-Beatrice uses a sawed-off shotgun to force Krauss and Natsuhi to accompany her to the underground passage entrance. Since Krauss was a child, he has believed there were hidden tunnels on the island that only Kinzo knew about, but he didn't know it for sure until just now. She starts telling them about the explosives.
Beato explains that Krauss knows all about Kinzo's madness, so he wouldn't doubt that such a device could exist. However, she has to have Piece-Beatrice demonstrate her understanding of the bomb and its explosive power.
Natsuhi doubts that Kinzo would create a device like that under his own home. Krauss says he's heard several times that the island used to be a naval base, and that there was a huge amount of explosives stored there. He also heard Kinzo say that the island would disappear without a trace the moment his luck ran out, or something to that effect.
Beato says that Piece-Beatrice's explanation might not be convincing enough, so she'll have Genji corroborate it.
Genji confirms that Kinzo did have a time bomb device, and that it's now under the control of Beatrice, the new family head. Natsuhi is shocked to think that during all the years they lived on the island, one of Kinzo's whims, or even a coincidence, could have caused the explosives to go off. Krauss expresses doubts as to whether the explosives still work after such a long time, so Piece-Beatrice explains that she tested them to make sure, and they were unexpectedly powerful. The bomb would blow away at least a several-hundred-meter radius surrounding the mansion.
Genji reminds them of the disappearance of the shrine last year. Krauss and Natsuhi remember the servants talking about a purple lightning bolt at the time, but such a thing couldn't possibly exist. Besides, even the crag that the shrine was on vanished, and that couldn't be the result of lightning or a wave. Piece-Beatrice says she performed the test to celebrate her revival, but wasn't expected such total destruction.
Krauss realizes that Piece-Beatrice must want their cooperation with something, since she went to the trouble of showing them all this and clearly doesn't need money. She agrees and says it'll be a trade. In exchange for his and Natsuhi's cooperation, she'll give them the entire mountain of gold and guarantee the lives of their family, but everything else on the island will be destroyed by the bomb.
Beato says that they'll probably lose their composure for a while, but there's no room to refuse. Krauss will point out that there won't be time to move the gold, so it'll be destroyed by the blast. In response, Piece-Beatrice will give him a bank card to access 10 billion yen that she had already converted from gold. Krauss will probably find it hard to believe that the money really exists, but since his family's lives are in danger, he's not really in a position to refuse.
Krauss will also have other reasons to go along with it. The blast will probably be treated as an accident, so he can monopolize the inheritance. Kinzo's death will also be covered up, and he can collect the substantial life insurance regardless of whether the 10 billion yen really exists or not. However, he'll hide this part from Natsuhi and reason that this is the only way to protect Jessica.
Piece-Beatrice explains that she won't make them help commit any weird crimes. She just wants to put on a performance to entertain a certain person. They have a relationship founded on enjoying and arguing about mystery novels, so she wants to celebrate his return after 6 years by putting on a mystery for him.
Beato says that Krauss and Natsuhi's roles will be to act as characters in Piece-Beatrice's play and follow her scenario. If they fail to do that, or they do anything to interfere with her story, the deal will be off. Piece-Beatrice has the key to the underground passage, which is the only way to reach safety from the bomb, and she'll promise to hand it over after the completion of the performance. However, Krauss will privately wonder if even the bomb threat is just an act to get their cooperation. He'll vow to oppose her the moment she tries to hurt his family, but she'll just laugh at him.
With this, Natsuhi and Krauss have become accomplices, and all of the servants have already been made accomplices as well.
Spoiler for 1st Twilight:
At the family conference, the siblings try to pressure Krauss to bring out Kinzo. However, Piece-Beatrice's scenario calls for Krauss and Natsuhi to stall in the family conference until midnight, at which time there will be a knock on the dining room door.
At midnight, Genji knocks on the door. Krauss tries to answer nonchalantly, but his voice cracks slightly due to the stress. Genji tells the adults that the master has summoned them. They all go upstairs, but Genji tells Natsuhi and Krauss that they are to wait outside, which invites some barbs from Eva.
Hideyoshi, Eva, Rudolf, Kyrie, and Rosa go inside and meet Piece-Beatrice and Kinzo, to their surprise and dismay. Genji introduces Piece-Beatrice as the head of the family. Kinzo is in high spirits, and explains that he just handed over his fortune and the head's ring to her.
Beato explains that naturally they aren't really talking to Kinzo, and anyone who knew that Kinzo had already died would consider it a cheap illusion. An illusion is just a falsified process leading up to the observed result, which in this case is that the five adults are going to die cruelly in the study.
Piece-Beatrice asks if anyone's figured out why she gathered them together. As a hint, she says there's a reason she left Natsuhi and Krauss outside. Genji doesn't count, since she still has a use for him. Not even Kinzo knows the answer, so she gives another hint: what did the tolling of the clock in the reception hall just now indicate? They still can't figure it out, and Piece-Beatrice feigns disappointment. She starts pondering out loud who to summon, and decides to invite a new guest for the first time in a while.
Beato picks a demon at random from the Key of Solomon. She gets #64, Flauros. She decides the demon should have a childish personality and look to contrast Gaap and Ronove, someone who is murderous in an innocent way.
"Flauros. Fura-chan. That has a nice ring to it, yeah.
...Let's see here, appears as a leopard?
When taking the form of a human, has the shape of a man. ...Eeh, a man? I'd rather it was a cute girl.
Let's change that. I'll go with a cute little girl who looks good with animal ears.
Sakutarou's ears were cute, so something like that...
I'll try sketching her.
*scribble scribble scribble*"
Beato lays out her plan to cover up the murders. She'll have Natsuhi and Krauss pretend they saw some of what happened. It'd be good to get some dust on their clothes from the study beforehand to match up with a struggle. They'll luckily manage to flee from the study with Piece-Beatrice laughing behind them. They'll try to call the police, but won't be able to get through, so they'll flee to the guesthouse in a panic.
Beato notes that Shannon and Kanon can't go to the guesthouse together in this situation, so she'll have to be careful. A simple plan would be to have Shannon and Natsuhi arrive first and say that Kanon and Krauss are getting guns for protection, so they'll arrive later. Shannon will go into the servants' room with a trembling Kumasawa, sneak out the door, and meet up with Krauss.
After that, there will be a siege in the guesthouse for a while. The cousins will probably want to leave, either to check the crime scenes or get revenge for their parents. If they're too insistent, it would be okay to have everyone go to the study again. Genji has a key, so the autolock isn't a problem. When they see a bizarre crime scene with huge holes in the walls, they'll surely be able to accept that it couldn't have been done by a human.
If that happens, it would be interesting if a magic circle that wasn't there before suddenly appeared. It would be fine to draw it a few days before, and have Krauss and Natsuhi lie about it not being there. To increase the number of mysteries, they could be given a letter from the culprit to have mysteriously appear in a locked room situation. For instance, after a room is confirmed empty and locked, they could go in later and discover the letter.
This would be a good place to have the first mystery argument in the higher world. Without suspecting those two, it would only be explainable as magic. "They" will probably only be able to think of location-type tricks involving things like the state of the lock, the windows, or the gap under the door. However, this is a true locked room with no one hiding inside. If Beato confirms that with a bunch of red truth, they'll probably give up, since they only have experience with false locked rooms.
Beato launches into a discussion of locked room taxonomies. Carr's lecture has many kinds of false locked rooms tricks, and for a large number of people these have become synonymous with the mystery genre. However, that means that false locked rooms become the limit of those people's reasoning for locked room mysteries. Beato is careful to say that she isn't criticizing that kind of trick, but rather the small group of narrow-minded people who think that's all there is because they don't have experience with anything else.
Beato says that while Carr's taxonomy does also list true locked rooms, when she confirms that one is a true locked room with red truth, it might be easier to use Anthony Boucher's taxonomy. Boucher divides true locked rooms into three types by when the crime was committed: 1) before the room was sealed, 2) while the room was sealed, and 3) after the room was broken into. In the case of the mysterious letter, if type 2 is denied with red truth, then it should be natural to doubt either the ones who initially confirmed the room was empty or the ones who broke into and found the letter. In either case, it should be obvious that someone in the Ushiromiya family is cooperating with the culprit, and as the sole surviving witnesses of the first murders who are claiming that a witch summoned a demon to kill everyone, Krauss and Natsuhi should instantly become the prime suspects.
Spoiler for 2nd Twilight:
George escorts Shannon to the bathroom and waits outside for her. She sneaks out the window. A short while later, Kumasawa also goes in, locks the window, and screams to announce an incident. George charges inside and sees a magic circle painted on one of the stalls. He thinks that Shannon could have gone out the window, but it's locked and he can't understand why she would have done something like that anyway. Meanwhile, Kumasawa "discovers" a letter announcing the 2nd twilight.
Beato explains that to make it look like Flauros is responsible, the bathroom stall has to be prepared to look like it was charred with flames, or that it exploded from the inside. The traces can be prepared beforehand, but there's a possibility one of the girls could wander into the stall earlier in the day. To prevent this, the bathroom could be declared off-limits the day before, which would also be interesting as a clue to the trick.
Or else, if it the traces aren't visible from outside, then they could be hidden just by keeping the stall door closed. That would make it possible to ask the question: "Nobody was supposed to be there, so who was using that stall?" That line of reasoning should lead to answer about when the magic circle was drawn.
It should be easy to doubt Kumasawa and Shannon here, so Natsuhi will raise that doubt against the servants. In mystery novels, plausible theories raised by the characters have a high probability of being wrong, so that tendency can be turned around and used as a weapon to deflect the reader's attention from the truth.
Krauss will talk things over with the servants, and the result will be to split into a family group and servant group, and have both groups barricade themselves in. The family will stay in the guesthouse, and the servants will go to the mansion. George will probably insist on searching for Shannon outside, but he can do that as much as he likes. The storm will probably drive him back into the guesthouse eventually.
Spoiler for 5th, 6th, 8th Twilights:
Beato explains that the servants will then meet up with Piece-Beatrice in the mansion to discuss their next moves. The 4th-8th twilights will be an EP3-style chain murder. The selling point of a chain murder is that you can control the order of discovery of the bodies.
With the exception of Genji, each of the servants have been bribed with 1 billion yen in exchange for their cooperation in what they believe to be a harmless mystery performance. They've been told that they'll only get the money if they play their parts correctly, but in reality Piece-Beatrice already sent the money (the letters received post-incident) several days ago. They won't be able to collect it, but their surviving relatives will.
They are also unaware that the five people in the study were actually killed. Beato explains that it's easier to control them this way under the current circumstances, although it's a case-by-case thing. They currently believe that they're just going to play dead for a while.
Gohda is nervous about screwing up, but Kumasawa is starting to enjoy herself. Everyone goes to their assigned rooms and begins preparing their respective crime scenes. The room assignments are:
Kanon - 1F parlor
Genji - 2F VIP guest room
Kumasawa - 2F Natsuhi's room
Gohda - 3F servants' break room
Shannon - chapel
Piece-Beatrice joins Kumasawa and they have a friendly chat. She tells Kumasawa to pick a comfortable position that she can hold for a long time, although she'll be able to relax after Nanjo finishes his fake autopsy and the room is sealed for the police. Kumasawa even brought a book and snacks.
Piece-Beatrice convinces Kumasawa to lie face down so she can check whether it looks more realistic. Then, she takes a cord out of her bag and throttles Kumasawa with it. She apologizes to the corpse, explaining that the location for this twilight is the ankle, and leaving Kumasawa to die just from that would make her suffer unnecessarily.
Piece-Beatrice takes takes out a rifle and shoots the corpse's ankle with it. Unlike the movies, the gunshot is only about as loud as popping a cork from a wine bottle. She then digs out the bullet with a pair of forceps and puts it in her bag, which already contains several other bloodstained bullets. She notes out loud that while the 4th and 5th twilights can be carried out with just a gun, after that it becomes more complicated, so killing a big man like Gohda will be difficult unless she makes him one of those two.
She jams a stake into the wound, putting all her weight into it. It looks unstable, so it might fall out later, but it's enough to make it look like the stake is a weapon for gouging sacrifices. Beato explains that she's now killed Kumasawa, Gohda, and Genji. Kanon can't die yet because he still has work to do. He takes his time going around and painting magic circles on the doors of all of the crime scenes.
Spoiler for 7th Twilight:
Beato reasons that the chapel is far away from the mansion and won't be discovered by accident. The 2nd floor rooms in the mansion might be found, but they're all locked, so the survivors will have to break in via a window. Therefore, they'll almost certainly break into the parlor first. Inside, they'll find Kanon dead with a master key in his pocket. There will be a letter from the witch nearby containing a key to the next crime scene, so the survivors will begin following the pre-arranged route.
The survivors can be prevented from examining the crime scene closely under the pretense that it needs to be preserved for the police. Natsuhi will have to hold back the children, and only Krauss and Nanjo will examine the body. Jessica in particular might try to run over to Kanon, so they'll have to be especially careful about that.
The survivors find Kanon. Nanjo announces that he can't be certain of the cause of death, except that the stake found on the ground near the wound in Kanon's knee probably wasn't what killed him. Krauss apologizes to Kanon for not trusting the servants. Maria points out that this is the 7th twilight, so George realizes that there must be at least 3 victims. Battler(?) tries to calm him down.
Krauss shuts the storm shutter, saying they can't leave the broken window alone. Meanwhile, Jessica does indeed try to go to Kanon's side, but Natsuhi manages to keep her away, saying that they can't disturb the scene.
Beato explains that they'll head to the VIP guest room, then Natsuhi's room, then the servants' break room. While they're busy, Kanon will just walk out the parlor door and relock it. Since he had two master keys to start with, he can just leave one inside the room and lock the door with the other one.
After the epitaph is completed, there's a danger that someone might come back and check the crime scenes again, and thereby discover that Kanon is missing. To prevent a contradiction, it'll be necessary to attribute the theft of his body to the culprit, but that's fine because it creates another mystery.
Spoiler for 4th Twilight:
Kanon meets up with Shannon and Piece-Beatrice at the chapel, and Shannon asks how it went. He says it was just sleeping, and it was easier than carrying fertilizer around. Beato thanks him for his hard work, and says his role on this game board is finished. Kanon says he'll see both of them again on the next board, and Piece-Beatrice makes him disappear.
Shannon and Piece-Beatrice go inside the chapel. After some searching, Shannon finds a small 20cm gap between the altar in the back and the stained glass window behind it. She ties one end of a cord to a small weight and dangles it in the gap. She ties the other end to a handgun. The weight is heavier than the gun, so the gun should fall into the gap when she lets go of it.
Piece-Beatrice says that it's going to be difficult to get the blood on Shannon's stake right. She smears the stake with a kind of paint that's used in movies. Shannon trades the gun for the stake. Both are pressed up against Shannon's forehead.
"Do you have any regrets?"
"...None. Everything I do is for you, Beatrice-sama."
"It's a shame... If someone had solved the epitaph... you wouldn't have to die either."
"There's no way anyone could solve such a difficult riddle. ...It was a hopeless bet from the very beginning."
"I made the bet in spite of that. ...A miracle that occurs in spite of such odds is worthy of being called magic."
"...In this human world filled with toxin, there are no magic spells or miracles. ...Beatrice-sama. You are the only witch... and the only one who can bring magic into this world."
"That's right. ...I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice. Sleep peacefully. When next you awaken, you will be in the Golden Land. Your beloved George will be there with you."
"...Thank you very much, Beatrice-sama..."
Piece-Beatrice pulls the trigger and Shannon slumps over. Piece-Beatrice lets go of the gun, and the weight pulls it into the gap behind the altar. She notes that it looks like the stake fell out of Shannon's forehead when she collapsed. She places an envelope containing the key to the parlor next to the body, and also adds a letter indicating that she stole Kanon's corpse for another part of the resurrection ritual, which ought to send the survivors running back to the parlor to check on his body.
"Now... That does it for the epitaph serial murders, riiiight? How is it, Battleeer? I hope you enjoy my mystery. Kukuku, haaahaahahahahaha!!!"
Beato says that since she went to the trouble of summoning Flauros, she'll go ahead and make Kanon's disappearance her fault. Something like: after Kanon died, his spirit was attacked by her and Piece-Beatrice, and after a useless struggle, Flauros swallowed him whole. With the serial murder finished, all that's left is to rewrite the story with a fantasy narrative pinning everything on the new demon.
I'll probably have more thoughts about this later when I'm not half-asleep, but for the time being:
With the exception of one line that I'm not even sure about, Battler doesn't appear anywhere in the narrative. I know it's a work-in-progress, but it seems odd that the main character's actions wouldn't be accounted for.
Solid accomplice motives all around... except for Genji, who is a stone wall again and just does whatever Beato wants without any backstory. What's going on here? Piece-Beatrice herself is pretty clear that she's in a fiction, so is this confirmation that they're using meta motives?
Speaking of which, Shkanon is super-confirmed, Erensel. Sorry. Despite that, there's only the slightest pretense that they're different people when they're alone with each other. Shannon and Kanon help set up their own murder scenes and chat amiably with Beatrice without any particular drama.
I'm about 75% sure that Meta-Beatrice is Ikuko.
__________________
"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."
Location: In the Meta- World... on Virgillia's bed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor
What kind of answer that Ryukishin said in his interview that wasn't hinted in the stories? show me some examples then.
Shannon's chest, its only thing that has no hint whatsoever about it. He says that if Battler were to feel her chest, he would find that it was flat. The "if" is what gets me.
I'm sorry, its 5:00 am where I'm at, so I'm going to bed. See ya...
Interesting stuff. By work in progress do you mean there is more to it that you haven't translated or do you mean that you have to clean it up? If that's all, I can't say I am shocked but he went a route I didn't think he would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight
I am so glad I was right about Meta-Motives, because that was pretty much my main cornerstone of "Yasu Didn't Do it."
Maybe I misread, but doesn't the translation seem to be the other way around? I know it uses meta-motives, but it looks like Yasu did it. Then again, it's just another fiction.
Interesting stuff. By work in progress do you mean there is more to it that you haven't translated or do you mean that you have to clean it up? If that's all, I can't say I am shocked but he went a route I didn't think he would.
By "work in progress", I mean that what Beato gave to Dlanor was a manuscript that she hadn't finished writing yet. That's why it still has all of her notes and trick explanations in it.
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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf
Maybe I misread, but doesn't the translation seem to be the other way around? I know it uses meta-motives, but it looks like Yasu did it. Then again, it's just another fiction.
I think what we learned is that being furniture means you don't have to have motives for doing things other than "the author in a higher dimension thinks it'll make an interesting story." So the reason we can't figure out a plausible motive for Yasu to kill her whole family in R-Prime could easily be that she didn't actually have one, and therefore didn't do it.
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"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."
Maybe I misread, but doesn't the translation seem to be the other way around? I know it uses meta-motives, but it looks like Yasu did it. Then again, it's just another fiction.
Well of course, all the stories have her as the murderer. The issue is, if the motive for the murders was meta, would that be enough for her to follow trough them in prime? Would she kill for a meta reason in a "real world"? If so then she's just insane.
This is the Beatrice we are meant to dislike, the scheming one that stabs people in the back and kills them for no apparent reason. That actually enjoys doing that, rubs it on our faces and expects us to laugh and go along with her. If we actually though she did it, we would be furious at her. But if we didnt we'd probably go "Cool story bro".
Shannon's chest, its only thing that has no hint whatsoever about it. He says that if Battler were to feel her chest, he would find that it was flat. The "if" is what gets me.
I'm sorry, its 5:00 am where I'm at, so I'm going to bed. See ya...
I think the thing about shannon's chest was irrelevant if you try to put it in the stories. That's why he only talk about it in the interview.
About the "If" thing. He was just saying a possibility "If" Battler touches Shannon's chest. But that never happened in the novel as far as i know. But you know what i think you got it wrong. It seems like he was just telling us the truth about Shannon's breast. The truth that he was unable to put in his stories.
@Lyrical what do you mean by "I am 75% sure that Meta-Beatrice is Ikuko" ?
Edit: Can anyone try to breakdown Ep1-Ep5 stories with those info that we got in lyrical's summary of our confession?
Can anyone try to breakdown Ep1-Ep5 stories with those info that we got in lyrical's summary of our confession?
Mh...
Spoiler for various spoiler:
- Shkannon confirmed (lol, i don't even know why i write this)
- Chained closed rooms trick in Ep3 confirmed
- Fake murders game with tragedy end confirmed (it explains why all the adults were so easily killed, at start they thought it -and were payed for it- as a game)
- Krauss as accomplice confirmed (I think it refers to Ep1, the gold ingot is a proof)
- Yasu suicide trick in Ep2 Natsuhi closed room and Ep3 chapel confirmed, it's basically the same R07 said in the interview.
I don't understand if lyrical (great work!) has finished his summary...
Meta-Motive, uh? I really don't see it, from the text the motive is the same as ep VII Tea Party, Roulette of fate etc.
That said, it didn't tell us anything we didn't know already, maybe just that Yasu tricked them into a fake murder mystery before killing them (which kinda explains why everyone went along with that bullshit... except Genji, because he's a robot anyway.)... i hope it isn't finished (thanks LyricalAura) because it's kinda disappointing.
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- Krauss as accomplice confirmed (I think it refers to Ep1, the gold ingot is a proof)
Hideyoshi is most likely ep 1 accomplice, i actually think Krauss was never an accomplice and R07 used him as an example in this because of that.
Well, not what I was expecting, honestly. I kind of thought we'd get an actual breakdown of how each murder was committed in E1-5. This does give us pretty much all the information we need, I guess...although it's mostly just confirming fan theories.
I always thought the 'pretend murder mystery' thing was kind of silly, though, so I'm sort of disappointed that it got confirmed. I don't understand why Yasu wouldn't just KEEP it as a pretend murder mystery rather than actually killing the people. I'd be able to sympathise with her a lot more if that was the case, but this says otherwise =/ The only reason I can see for her doing it like this is, like people are saying, meta-motives: so that Meta-Beatrice can say that the people are dead in red. If so that's kind of weak, because it means Meta-Battler can't realistically solve the 'why dunnit'.
I'll probably try and do a breakdown of E1-5 later if nobody else does, although honestly by this point it'd be pretty easy for anyone.
Actually, now that I think about it, it doesn't seem like there's any mention of Maria in there either.
Kind of surprising, since she's pretty obviously an accomplice as well. I think most people assume Maria locked the door of the parlor for twilights 6-8 of EP1, though you could also say that Beatrice simply hid in the room or something.
Edit: Also, still no mention of why Yasu continued committing murders after the epitaph was solved in EP3, though you can easily explain it away by saying that Yasu agreed to co-operate with Eva's plan after she became the new Golden Witch.
Problem is that it wasnt Beatrice the one that killed them (George, Hideyoshi). It was Eva Beatrice. If Beatrice is Yasu, then who is Eva-Beatrice? Would it really be Eva?
The way I interpret it was that at any time you saw Beatrice killing someone, it was basically Yasu killing someone for whatever reason. But then you have a story like EP3 with Eva Beatrice and EP5 with the "man" murdering people. Can we say that in these cases, Beatrice had no part in the events?
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Originally Posted by battle22
so this confirms that yasu is the culprit?
In the stories? Sure, if you believe that Beatrice is Yasu.
So basically this confirms the fake murder plan, which is the only way to plausibly justify the existence of so many accomplices.
However this doesn't explain the big question about it, as Drifflon already mentioned.
This story confirms that the mystery fake scenario is a game "Beato" created for Battler. But if fake corpses work as well as true corpses, why she had to kill anyone at all?
Even if she wanted everyone to die when\if Battler failed, she could let the bomb do the job.
2012-01-01, 02:50
