2010-10-01, 15:59 | Link #17821 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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One thing I forgot to mention (and I can't believe Renall hasn't pointed it out yet) is that Bernkastel was the game master for episode 7. In order words, be critical of what you read.
She claims that she was not the game master for the tea party and that the events of the tea party were the real world.
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2010-10-01, 16:04 | Link #17822 | |
Senior Member
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As for why I think Krauss knew or guessed: 1) Rudolf had some sort of secret that he was unsure whether or not to reveal in the "I'll probably be killed tonight" scene. The truth about Battler's parentage is the only likely secret. 2) Remember the scene in Episode 1 when the siblings are trying to shake down Krauss? Krauss is good at learning secrets and waiting for the best time to use them. a) How did Rudolf learn about Battler's parentage? b) Why didn't Rudolf reveal that years ago? c) Why was he going to reveal it that night? Try answering these questions under the assumptions that "the switch was accidental", "Asumu did it without Rudolf's knowledge", and "Rudolf was knowingly involved in the switch". If Krauss managed to convince Kyrie of everything, I think it quite likely that Kyrie would file for divorce, get custody of Ange, break up the business; possibly Battler would also leave him. Losing everything could, metaphorically, be "getting killed tonight". Rudolf might be weighing the possibilities "Do I gamble that Krauss has nothing, or on my ability to talk things out now?" And the "Asumu is Ange's mother" idea strikes me as ridiculous. Could Asumu go through 9 months of pregnancy without Battler noticing?
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2010-10-01, 16:10 | Link #17823 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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He may have wanted to tell her, but couldn't because he wanted her to find out the truth when he realized she was looking into it. Another issue here is if Battler is really Amakusa did he kill Ange or not?
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2010-10-01, 16:22 | Link #17824 | |
OMAE WO SHINJIRU!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Europe - Romania - Dolj - Craiova
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2010-10-01, 16:30 | Link #17825 |
Senior Member
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As I said before, if Krauss, Eva, Kasumi, Kinzo, or most anybody were behind the switch, please explain the exact scheduling.
Did they somehow anticipate that Asumu would have a stillbirth and Kyrie would carry hers to term? If not, how did they manage to learn about it and carry everything out during the interval?
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2010-10-01, 16:34 | Link #17826 |
The Death!
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Purgatorio
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Spoiler for First random thought:
Anyways onto my second thought. The lies, whatever Episode it always happens without fail. Kanon's fake death, Rosa's "conversation" with Kinzo, The Cigarettes in Eva's room, and the majority of Episode 4. What do they exactly gain by lying? Spoiler for Episode 1-Kanon and Nanjo:
Spoiler for Episode 2-Rosa:
Spoiler for Episode 2:
Spoiler for Episode 3-The cigarette:
Spoiler for Episode 3-Eva's only seen murder:
Spoiler for Episode 4 Jessica's Narration:
Spoiler for Episode 4-Kyrie's Narration:
Spoiler for The Liar's Fates:
I'm thinking Beatrice is like a genie. Sure she gives red truths but sometimes those reds are horribly misleading. Spoiler for Red Truth of the Genie:
-whew- That took awhile...as you can see I avoided using my regular SPEECH. If you think I'm that crazy then guess AGAIN. This is similar to my Method X theory but it's different in the fact that the lie is the lock not the lock ITSELF. If there are any flaws please let me KNOW.
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2010-10-01, 16:40 | Link #17827 | |
OMAE WO SHINJIRU!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Europe - Romania - Dolj - Craiova
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2010-10-01, 16:54 | Link #17828 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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Or maybe none of that happened quite that way at all. We may yet see come ep8. Dlanor: Actually even if we accept that Eva shot Battler in ep3 there's no proof he died from that or indeed died in any particular episode. Not that it matters, necessarily. But then Eva herself survived being shot in the ep7 Tea Party, but the behavior of the guns in ep7 was "realistic." In the fictions where the genre is murder mystery, guns probably don't fail to hit their lethal marks like that. Either way, it doesn't strike me as relevant because ep3 is almost certainly not quite accurate.
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2010-10-01, 19:07 | Link #17831 | |
Senior Member
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Is there any evidence that anybody else might have been at the hospital? Why would Krauss or Eva WANT to switch the babies? What reason would they have for being at the clinic BEFORE learning about Asumu's stillbirth?
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2010-10-01, 19:29 | Link #17832 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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For that matter, why does the baby switch even have to be deliberate? Two babies with the same father were delivered in the same hospital on the same day. Doesn't that immediately suggest the possibility of a simple hospital error? If Rudolf found out about it after the fact, there's no way he could speak up. What would he say to Asumu? "Sorry dear, there was a mistake. Your baby is actually dead, we have to give this one back to Kyrie"?
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2010-10-01, 20:10 | Link #17833 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Ok, let me type...I have not much of participation of umineko in English before, so pardon me if some of my translations of terms and names look different.
First of all, I am using the Author Theory to explain what each Episodes are. I think the Culprit (or Maria) wrote Episode 1 and 2, and Tooya (八城十八) and/or other writers wrote Episode 3~6. Ok, then let's start my speculation. In 1980, Kyrie (霧江) killed both Asumu (明日夢) and Battler (戦人). She did it out of jealousy, hatred and love for Rudolf (留弗夫). After Kyrie did her murder, Rudolf decided help her conceal the murder and marry her. Possible reasons of Rudolf doing this, might be because Rudolf felt that he was responsible for Kyrie becoming a murderer (Kyrie won't kill Asumu if Rudolf had married Kyrie), and maybe also because Kyrie was pregnant with Ange (縁寿) at that time. OK. Now Battler is dead, and Rudolf wants to concealing this fact. Rudolf and Kyrie then decided to tell everyone that Asumu died, and Battler left the family out of anger. Telling everyone that Asumu and Battler are both dead would make Kyrie look too suspicious, I suppose. So, for 6 years continuously, Rudolf and Kyrie prepares fake letter and keeps on telling everyone that Battler is alive, but just full with anger and not wanting to go back home. Unfortunately for them, they had no clue that Battler made a promise with Shanon (紗音) = Yasu (ヤス...yeah, I think they are the same person), so they had prepared no letter for poor Shanon. This got Shanon to be curious about how Battler actually is, and send people out (probably Genji (源次)) to make contact with Battler, but Genji came back, and tell Shanon that Battler actually is dead. Shanon was extremly sad about this. However, before the meeting in 1986, she (as a maid on the island) heard the news that Battler is coming back. She was surprised - well, she knew that Battler was dead!So who exactly is the Battler, who came on 1986?That makes the 1986 Battler a fake, deliberately prepared by Rudolf and Kyrie. Shanon soon figured out that the 1986 Battler was a fake. She then decides to do two things: 1. Write (or have Maria write) Episode 1 and 2, and send them out by wine bottle. 2. Make sure that nobody leaves the island alive. Why did Shanon do this? The answer is, to make Battler live eternally, in people's mind, as the hero of the Rukujima Mystery, who eternally fights with Beatrice the golden witch. The entire event of Rukujima, is Shanon's way of making everyone remember Battler forever. Eva got out the island alive in the story of Episode 3 and 7, but things are fine as she decided to ot say anything. Who is Meta-Battler, you may ask? Well, I think Meta-Battler is an imaginary character created by Shanon, Eva, and Ange together. Shanon created Meta-Battler by writing Episode 1 and 2, Eva helped in the creation by not breaking Shanon's lie, and Ange just firmly hopes that her brother is alive and fighting with the witch like a big hero. Thus, these 3 all have the name of BEATRIX. Now, let's check this speculation with Reds. 犯人は物語当初の登場人物以外を禁ず。 The fake Battler in 1986 isn't the Culprit. He is a fake, but not the Culprit. 戦人くんは犯人ではありませんよ。 戦人くんは誰も殺してはいません。 Yeah, Battler (fake or not) didn't kill anybody. No problem. 提示されない手掛かりでの解決を禁ず。 手掛かりなき他の登場人物への変装を禁ず。 Episode 4 hinted that there was something fishy about Battler's idendity. 俺の名は右代宮戦人。 Well, Meta-Battler said this, and his creaters (Shanon, Eva, Ange) did name him Battler. 妾は黄金の魔女、ベアトリーチェ。 そして右代宮金蔵の孫、右代宮戦人と戦うためにこのゲームを開催した。 Yeah, Beatrix created the entrie Umineko story for the sake of Battler. No problem. 右代宮戦人の母は、右代宮明日夢である。 Yep. The mother of the real Battler is Asumu. 俺の名は右代宮戦人だ。 Meta-Battler said this, and yes he was named by his creater as Battler. 右代宮戦人は、右代宮明日夢から生まれた。 Yep. The real Battler was born from Asumu. No problem. 俺は右代宮戦人だ…! Meta-Battler said this, and yes his name is Battler. 俺は右代宮明日夢から、 Meta-Battler said this, but Asumu didn't give him birth. Shanon did. そなたは、右代宮明日夢の息子ではない。 This is said by Beatrix to Meta-Battler, and yes Meta-Battler isn't Asumu's son. 右代宮戦人は右代宮明日夢の息子ではないわ。 Remember the previous red of 右代宮戦人の母は、右代宮明日夢である。 ? For these two reds to both be true, I can only guess that there are two Battlers, one has Asumu as the mother, but not the other one. ………縁寿は、……俺の妹だ。 Meta-Battler said this, and Ange did create him as the heroic big brother who fights with the evil witch on island, so yes Ange is Meta-Battler's little sister. ………右代宮戦人。今から私が、あなたを殺します。 Beatrix said this to Meta-Battler. I explain this as Beatrix decalring that she is going to make another Episode of story, that has Battler failed to defeat the evil golden witch, and not coming back from the island. ………そしてたった今。この島にはあなた以外誰もいません。この島で生きているのは、あなただけです。島の 外の存在は一切干渉できません。 This red was spoken in the Meta-world. I say that this means that, in this story, created by Beatrix (or the author of EP 4), has progressed to the stage that every other characters of the story on island have died. Nobody else that's not in the story (not on the island) could interfere with him. ………この島にあなたはたった一人。そしてもちろん、私はあなたではない。なのに私は今、ここにいて、これ からあなたを殺します。 The EP4 story had progressed to the stage in which everyone else other than Battler had died. Of course, Beatrix (the writer) isn't the same as Battler, and Beatrix (the writer), now, is going to kill Battler again, by writing out the ending of "Battler did not come back from island" again. このゲームに、ハッピーエンドは与えない。 The real Battler was dead, so there is no happy ending. 「幻は、幻に。約束された死神は、魔女の意思を問わずに、物語に幕を下ろす。」 Battler is dead. This truth doesn't change regardless of how the witch thinks or hopes, and so every story must say "Battler did not come back from the island". (戦人に対し)そなたは無能だ! This was said by Beatrix to Meta-Battler. Meta-Battler is powerless because he can't win (he was written, or created to fight enternally, not to win). そなたは妾の一番のお気に入りの家具にしてやるよ。 そなたを愛して愛して、灰になるまで妾の玩具にしてやるよ…。 This was said by Beatrix to Meta-Battler, and yes Meta-Battler, accoring to my theory, IS the most beloved toy of the golden witch. 妾は約束は守る。 Shanon had created the umineko story, so that the promise between the real Battler and Shanon could have been kept. ベアトは、あなたに解いて欲しいと願って、解けるようにこのゲームを、……この物語の謎を生み 出しました。 Yep. Beatrix made the game so that Meta-Battler could try to solve it. これまでのあなたは探偵デシタ! Dlanor (ドラノール) said this to Meta-Battler. Yeah, Meta-Battler was a dectective previously. So, in a way, I am saying that there are 3 Battlers. Battler No.1:Born by Asumu, killed by Kyrie. Battler No.2:Meta-Battler, created by Beatrix. Battler No.3:A fake, prepared by Kyrie and Rudolf to go on the island in 1986. The reds in Episode 3 about Battler refers to him, this fake guy. He can be called as Battler, because the true Battler's father had decided to make him Battler. What does this speculation do? It answers the motivation of Yasu. It explains where このゲームに、ハッピーエンドは与えない came from. It shows how Battler was both born from Asumu and not born from Asumu. It also explains why Battler seems to have "forgot" his promise with Shanon - well, dead people can hardly keep their promises. Er, why did Rudolf and Kyrie prepared a fake? Well..maybe Kinzo was angry that Battler leaving the family, and made some huge cut to the amount of money that Rudolf could inherit. Rufold and Kyrie did this, to hire a fake Battler to please Kinzo, so that they can get more money. |
2010-10-01, 20:53 | Link #17834 |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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I don't like that theory mainly because at this point in the game it's too big of a deus ex machina to throw. The idea of hiring a fake Battler doesn't make sense because
1) Kyrie and Rudolf think Kinzo is already dead. So why hire a fake to possibly please Kinzo when they think this? 2) We see a lot of Battler's inner thinking and there are detailed thoughts of things Kyrie and Rudolf likely wouldn't have knowledge of. 3) In EP 6 Kyrie mad no mention of wanting to kill Battler- her intent was only to murder Asumu and no one else. I doubt Rudolf realizes she wanted to kill Asumu, or else he would probably think twice about marrying her. Furthermore your speculation is only based on red truths. The red text provides concrete details about the murders and so forth, but they do not provide anything on who the character is as a whole being. White text is essential to the 'Why Do It' because there isn't any red regarding motivations. Besides it's clear in EP 7 that Yasu/Shannon/Whatever you wanna call her is just insane. She literally decides to blow up the island because Battler forgot about the promise. It's not that he didn't keep it, it's that he didn't remember it at all. This isn't something a person who is of sane mind would do. And yes I know some people are willing to forgive her, because if Bern is actually telling the truth about the true events (and that's a big 'What If'), then Yasu didn't kill anyone. Personally I don't because she still had the intent to blow everyone up if no one solved the epitaph that night, but that's an opinion. |
2010-10-01, 21:14 | Link #17835 | ||
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And Rosa states outright this idea in ep2 when she's chasing Battler off. Quote:
My opinion is that if you can't plausibly connect Yasu's primary characterization with an individual who would commit a mass murder, then that simply isn't what she was actually intending (or the characterization is a lie). And I don't really think the Yasu stuff makes Beatrice more plausible as a culprit. If anything, it makes it much, much less so.
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2010-10-01, 21:41 | Link #17836 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Your claim: "All evidence we have says that he loved both of them." Can you clarify this? Are you saying that no evidence can be found in this game to suggest that Rudolf did not love Asumu? Quote:
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2010-10-01, 22:03 | Link #17837 | ||||||
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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……恐怖を味わわせるのが目的ではありません。 誰かに復讐するためのものでもありません。 …ベアトは、快楽目的で殺人を行なっていることはありません。 If Yasu blew up Battler because Battler forgot her, how come that doesn't count as revenge? Quote:
Nope, that kind of thing will never happen, as promised in red: このゲームに、ハッピーエンドは与えない。 and my theory gives a reason for why it would never happen. Quote:
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2010-10-02, 12:31 | Link #17840 | ||
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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We do also have ambiguous data, such as the quick marriage to Kyrie and the removal of Asumu's photos. You can interpret it favorably in light of the other evidence: he was devastated by Asumu's death and ran to his closest friend/lover for comfort, and it hurt too much to keep seeing her photos lying around. Or, since Rudolf's thoughts are a cat box, you can claim that he had secret motivation X which caused him to pretend to love Asumu, and then when she died he immediately tossed her aside and ran to his real lover. However, I think the story is practically shouting at this point that you shouldn't assume the worst of people in the absence of data. What is there to make that second line of reasoning more attractive? Rampant speculation about the baby swap, which is also inside a cat box? Yes, I think it's the least malicious interpretation that can be imposed, given what we know. There doesn't seem to be anything linking it to Rokkenjima, so I don't feel a need to cook up some complicated scheme involving multiple people to explain it. Sometimes tragic things happen that are just accidents.
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