2009-12-04, 09:45 | Link #4881 | |
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Take the Soviet Union for instance. People had the right to vote during those days (and I also want to mention that Stalin was the first person to allow Russian/Soviet women to vote), although the parties they could vote for were always the same and ultimately different variations or factions of the communist party. Is it really that much different right now? In the US, you either have the choice of Democratic or Republican with a few others mixed into the bucket just for show, but ultimately, they all suggest the same "democratic" ideal. It is the same in Italy, where you always see the same faces in government, the same people always running for PM, and the list goes on and on in democratic countries. When all is said and done, there is not much difference between democracy and dictatorships. People simply don't like to admit it because that's the kind of knowledge and ideal imposed on them through education and media. |
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2009-12-04, 09:55 | Link #4883 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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@narona
what exactly does Switzerland do ? other then deal with its own internal politics, what exactly does it do on the international stage ? @Yoko Takeo Quote:
the people all vote, and what most voted for gets done the minority is a minority BECAUSE there are fewer of them then there are of the people who voted for the other guy you cant complain just because in the end there is one person (or group) who rules thats always the way things are but at least in democracies, YOU get to choose who it is.
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2009-12-04, 09:59 | Link #4884 | |||
Emotionless White Face
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Therefore I thought you talked about switzerland since the debate started because of them ^^ Now, do you talk about a country "without any government"? In that case, yeah I agree, but that was not the debate. But if you're talking about countries likje switzerland, then I did ask you to explain why their system doesn't work. |
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2009-12-04, 10:01 | Link #4885 | |
✖ ǝʇ ɯıqnɾl ☆
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mortuary : D
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'Cavemen' inherit billions
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2009-12-04, 10:05 | Link #4886 | |||
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It does things right. Quote:
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2009-12-04, 10:08 | Link #4887 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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then it seems i was wrong about the nature of the debate
but i do have to ask do you and Yoko Takeo REALLY believe that democracies and dictatorships are really all that similar ? putting aside the whole "who runs a government" aspect of it is it really comparable in the human rights aspect ? can you imagine a situation where you would be arrested, for an unlimited amount of time (not a day or two) without any right to see a lawyer or a judge, and without even being told WHAT you are in jail for ? can you imagine something like that happening to you in France for any reason (much less, protesting against your government) ? because in any given dictatorship, something like that is not only possible, is practically a staple of the system putting aside the method by which leaders are elected, there is a VERY big difference between democracies and dictatorships Quote:
after all, you cant really tell if they are telling the truth or not if the system actually WORKS then you have people who's profession is to investigate and expose things like that the position is called State Comptroller in my country, but i'm not sure what they called it anywhere else
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2009-12-04, 10:17 | Link #4888 | |
Emotionless White Face
Join Date: Feb 2008
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For example, when a government starts doing what it wants without caring about the popular opinion. Or when they decide very important thing (like the lisbon treaty) without checking the popular opinion, nor explaining to them what it is in details. Or (because it doesn't concern the governments only) when medias spread made-up norms that create a lot of problems to the ones who don't fit the norm. etc etc etc. I don't say it's better (of course not), but at least in a true dictatorship, you know how it is and they make their objectives and laws very clear to understand. In a lot of supposed democracy, you think it's democratic, but behind the curtain, it can be way different than what you imagine it to be. And so, not that democratic. Usually, they just give you enough for you to not wonder if there's something wrong (because for example as you said, people tend to not think beyond two days in the future). It can become a kind of vicious dictatorship imo. But as you said, the "good part" of a false democracy is that they give you more basic rights and a "supposed" justice when problems happen to you. |
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2009-12-04, 10:18 | Link #4889 | |||
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I'd like to think that the lawyer/s is working with "falsely identified brothers" and that they'll split the money after. still, its cool. Quote:
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while a democracy, well...there's more power for the majority, so media control is harder and lying is harder. |
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2009-12-04, 10:25 | Link #4890 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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as a general rule, the way to determine if you are in a democracy or not is whether or not they have two parties (not candidates, parties)
if both candidates are from the same party, then its not a democracy and i agree with you on most of what you said, but there IS one thing i would disagree with the notion that in a true dictatorship, you know how it is and they make their objectives and laws very clear that is not always the case in fact, one of the most clear signs of a dictatorship, is that you can never REALLY know if you are breaking the law or not in same cases simply because, whether or not you broke the law is something the dictator can decide as he sees fit you can litteraly do nothing wrong, but still get accused of being a criminal, simply because you are in the wrong place at the wrong time or you know too much or someone doesnt like you or because of a mistake in identity or because your wife strikes someone elses fancy and so on and so forth
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2009-12-04, 10:31 | Link #4891 | ||
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2009-12-04, 10:33 | Link #4892 | |
eyewitness
Join Date: Jan 2007
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And if you're for direct democracy then why should the vote of over 2/3 of the population for the treaty in the second referendum not count. Why do people change their opinion so easily anyway. I only see two possiblities: 1. They understood that the second treaty was different. 2. People are stupid What we had was a decision to be taken from the hands of elected representatives who got elected because they were willing to take responsibility (in the best case, many of them love referenda too because then they're not the ones to blame) to people that said "I don't understand it so I'm against it."and/or "I don't understand it, that's the government's fault." and/or "I don't like the politicians, the politicians like this, so I'm against it." Every single argument is a testament of irresposibility. Like teenagers with a temper. Give me people who at least understand that such a decision is finally about them (and others) and that it's therefore in their best interest (and their duty) to inform themselves impartially then I'm a bit more willing to believe that their decisions might lead to a better life for all than those of elected representatives. And of course the decision can be taken back. No matter what people claim, the EU is not a state, its legitimation comes from the member states it can thus be dissolved by the member states (as opposed to, say, the USA which could only dissolve itself), and every member is free to leave, with the Lisbon treaty even explicitly so. If the Irish really don't like the EU on the current conditions(in the light of the second referendum they seem to be OK with it, but anyway) they can vote a government into office that offers a new referendum, leave the EU, and see if they find better conditions as members of EFTA, NAFTA, ASEAN or on their own. If it goes well, more power to them. Of course, should it go wrong they would blame the politicians regardless.
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2009-12-04, 10:34 | Link #4893 | ||
Emotionless White Face
Join Date: Feb 2008
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It's even worse in italia, just ask Yoko (I did watch a TV program about it a few days ago). About "lying is harder", I don't think so. Quote:
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2009-12-04, 10:44 | Link #4894 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
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I'd imagine that there should be apart of your media that should support the opposite side. If not, then see if elections are well-played, and if, again, not, someone might've gotten too strong...and that's not democracy.(though not democracy it does help eliminate *some* troubles with the U.S. for its name.) Its the dispersion of power that creates possible "self-righteous" powerful men who plans for more dispersion. The competition is a good thing. |
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2009-12-04, 10:45 | Link #4895 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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@Yoko Takeo
i said that it works IF the system is in any way functional but i kinda find it hard to accept the notion that the state controllers get payed off to look the other way one something like fake votes its not a small thing to fake votes its the sort of thing that triggers revolutions (see iran) you can lie about the small things and end up getting in trouble if its discovered the big things are kinda more problematic @narona i agree that you know from the start i just dont think it does you much good most dictators are VERY good at deflecting criticism by finding enemies from without to blame most people would much sooner support their country in a war against a foreign enemy rather then they would protest against their own enemies from within any day of the week thats why dictatorships are always in conflict with other countries throughout their existance they cant survive without having someone to blame for everything
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2009-12-04, 13:36 | Link #4896 |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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Take a look at South East Asia, especially Singapore. You are right in that point, but it doesn't really matter what kind of regime is ruling the country, as long as the poverty line doesn't hit rock bottom and nobody really starves to death (unless purposefully), does it really matter?
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2009-12-04, 14:36 | Link #4898 | ||
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2009-12-04, 15:15 | Link #4899 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Safe School Czar's recommended reading list reads like "Sankaku" blog material
http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2009/12/ |
2009-12-04, 15:39 | Link #4900 | |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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All forms of media ingested must be taken with a pinch of salt, it is the personal judgement that alters perspective, which is inherently different from one person to another.
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current affairs, discussion, international |
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