(L) Oriko Magica (Spinoff manga series)

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Shyni

I thought the story works pretty well as just another timeline Homura went through.

I think it works better as an AU narrative. If this story is part of the same canon that the anime is, then it raises the question of why Oriko doesn't show up in the final timeline.

Keep in mind that a key element of Oriko's character is her ability to perceive previous timelines. Well, any Oriko from this timeline on should maintain that ability.


It also would raise some uncomfortable questions for Homura. For example: Why doesn't Homura try to recruit Oriko's help in future timelines to prevent Madoka from ever becoming a Puella Magi? That would serve both their goals. Homura would also have a much better chance of besting Walpurgis Night if Oriko and/or Kirika is helping her out. Again, why not recruit them?


To be clear, I'm certainly not saying I'd object to Oriko, Kirika, and Yuma showing up in a future Madoka Magica anime property (such as the third movie that's coming soon). In fact, I'd love to see them show up (I'd particularly love to see Mami & Sayaka vs. Oriko & Kirika over some misunderstanding). But if they are introduced, I'd rather it be as new characters that weren't magical girls in the timelines that Homura went through.

[Shyni]

It's possible that they just never became magical girls in any timelines shown in the anime. IIRC, Kyubey said that Homura's jumping around linked multiple timelines together, so they probably had variations or anomalies that she didn't influence.

Or something. Maybe they just died before they got to do anything.

Also, the story does end with Homura doing another time jump, or implied to have done so, so it still leads in to more timelines.

[Triple_R]

You seem to have something against viewing the Oriko Magica manga as an AU. Why? What's wrong with it being an AU?

Many wonderful comic book stories are explicitly AU stories. Them being AU stories doesn't make them any less worthwhile.


If you try to force the Oriko Magica manga into the canon narrative, it really does raise uncomfortable questions for Homura. It raises all sorts of guesswork that negatively impacts an otherwise very tight canon narrative. The canon narrative works best if the five timelines we see in the anime are the only timelines Homura went through. The more timelines you incorporate, the worse it makes Homura look. Really, it does. A person failing a few tries doesn't look as bad as a person failing countless times.

[Shyni]

IIRC, Kyubey's dialogue in episode 11 sounded like there were more than 5 or so timelines. I can't check the official translation since I don't have my DVD with me right now, (and Crunchyroll doesn't have PMMM here) but a random fansub I found worded it that way.

Many wonderful comic book stories are explicitly AU stories. Them being AU stories doesn't make them any less worthwhile.

Maybe, but those stories didn't involve time loops that allowed for the story to go on more or less like the main canon, did they? Oriko's ending just didn't feel like it prevented Homura from going on like she does in the anime.

And I think Homura is cool not because she's actually competent, but because she tries so damn hard and refuses to give up to the point that it's heart-breaking, but admirably so.

Also, to compare/contrast it with Kamen Rider Ryuki, because that seems to be a thing with Madoka Magica, the ending of Oriko allowed for the story to still go on, unlike the Ryuki theatrical film, Episode Final which was explicitly an alternate ending. (that being said, I'm not completely sure how Ryuki's other spinoff movie, 13 Riders fits into its canon, if at all, so my analogy could be way off)

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think it works better as an AU narrative. If this story is part of the same canon that the anime is, then it raises the question of why Oriko doesn't show up in the final timeline.

Because time constraints. Same reason we only see the most important leaps Homura makes. If anything, we don't know how many times Homura has leaped. It could be ten, hundred, thousand, hundred thousand......

A more likely reason is that both Kazumi and Oriko were in production at the same time as the anime, and the anime was still finalizing details up until the very end. Kazumi required several changes to adjust its continuity to the anime, for example. Oriko can simply be explained as a case of "this one time, paths crossed in a unique way". Maybe Oriko rejects the wish, maybe she turns into a Witch too soon, maybe she has different visions, maybe her family is better, etc. Maybe QB only meets her because Homura was successful in keeping Madoka and Sayaka away from it all, so he was lured to alternate sources of energy.

And technically, all of Homura's jumps are AU. She's not just leaping time, but space. Meh, I don't think these mechanics are every truly meant to be understood. I doubt Gen could answer them very well either.

[AuraTwilight]

There's also the possibility that in every post-Oriko timeline, Homura just assassinates the shit out of Oriko.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

There's also the possibility that in every post-Oriko timeline, Homura just assassinates the shit out of Oriko.

Wouldn't that be one heck of a karma dump? Homu's cold, but I don't think she's hardcore like that.

[Shyni]

Yeah that sounds... a bit much. Homura isn't quite a shining paragon of heroism, but she should have, uh, limits.

Also, Kirika doesn't look too bad in (hypothetical) Aoki Ume style... although she looks almost like a vampire.

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

There's also the possibility that in every post-Oriko timeline, Homura just assassinates the shit out of Oriko.

Otherwise, Homura would have learnt the best way to keep Sayaka from turning into a witch: Assassinate Hitomi in every timeline.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by Solace

Wouldn't that be one heck of a karma dump? Homu's cold, but I don't think she's hardcore like that.

Well, if Oriko's planning to murder everyone in Madoka's class and countless Magical Girls as a distraction I think Homura might be a bit justified here.

Atleast as justified as she was abandoning all those people to their deaths to save just Madoka, anyway.

Otherwise, Homura would have learnt the best way to keep Sayaka from turning into a witch: Assassinate Hitomi in every timeline.

Bad idea, Hitomi is Madoka's friend. "I wish Hitomi was alive again!"

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Well, if Oriko's planning to murder everyone in Madoka's class and countless Magical Girls as a distraction I think Homura might be a bit justified here.

Atleast as justified as she was abandoning all those people to their deaths to save just Madoka, anyway.



Bad idea, Hitomi is Madoka's friend. "I wish Hitomi was alive again!"

Better way: *points a gun at Kyousuke* Now call Sayaka, and tell her that you love her.

Worse way: *consults Kyoko* Go be the love rival of Sayaka and get Kyousuke.
Kyoko: Sayaka's.... Sayaka's.... boyfriend..... (substitutes Sayaka for Kyousuke). HEY SAYAKA's Childhood frienddd~

[AuraTwilight]

That still won't work. You can't compare attacking people Madoka knows and loves to removing someone who has murderous intent towards her. Homura can assassinate Oriko for the same reason he can murder Kyubey (repeatedly) without being a sociopath: Oriko has intent to draw first blood and will kill dozens, maybe even over a hundred people just to get to Madoka.

[Shyni]

Big difference there:

1. Killing QB doesn't actually hurt him.
2. In other timelines, Oriko had not yet actually done anything, so she would be innocent.

And we don't really know why these spinoff characters don't show up in the anime timelines anyway. Nobody asks why Yuma doesn't show up, and Homura definitely wouldn't kill her. If this does fit into canon, the explanation might have nothing to do with Homura.

[Triple_R]

The current debate over whether or not Homura would kill Oriko in future timelines is a big part of the reason why I'm not fond of the idea of considering the Oriko Magica manga the same canon as the anime.

Because while I prefer not to think of Homura as a cold-blooded killer, it's hard to escape AuraTwilight's conclusion, imo.

[Shyni]

It's only hard to escape if you insist that all variations across the timelines are due to Homura's actions. I doubt that's how it works. Did any other time loop anime have every single variation be directly or indirectly caused by how the person performing the loop acts? Somehow, I doubt that two timelines would go exactly the same even if Homura tries to do everything in the exact same way, as if she's the only actual variable.

Seriously, this is just thinking too hard, isn't it?

Just for comparison,

Spoiler for something about Higurashi (When they Cry):

did Higurashi make it that the only differences across timelines were because of Rika doing things differently? I'm pretty sure there were differences that were beyond her influence, like one of the Sonozaki twins being absent for the first arc.

[maximilianjenus]

homura can stil resort to talking to oriko, os they cna have an agreement that homura will take care of madoka not becoming a mahou shoujo and if she ever does oriko can kill madoka. that's irrelevant for homuar as madoka is an insta witch if she becomes a mahou shoujo to fight walpurgis.

Spoiler for higurashi:

yes, there are differences, the one i remember first is in the TIPS, rika's mom makes a big deal of rika knowing which days it rains, and how when rika messes up and it rains in days where rika is not expecting to rain rika becomes all happy.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Shyni

It's only hard to escape if you insist that all variations across the timelines are due to Homura's actions. I doubt that's how it works. Did any other time loop anime have every single variation be directly or indirectly caused by how the person performing the loop acts? Somehow, I doubt that two timelines would go exactly the same even if Homura tries to do everything in the exact same way, as if she's the only actual variable.

Seriously, this is just thinking too hard, isn't it?

So basically, you just want to hand-wave away every possible continuity/character issue, and say "It works. Somehow."

Not every fan is going to find that a satisfying approach. What you call "thinking too hard" is what another fan considers a perfectly legitimate desire to understand a fictional universe that they care about.


It's much, much cleaner/easier to simply say that Oriko Magica is an AU narrative unconnected to the main anime narrative. And you're done. So that's my position, and I don't see anything wrong with it.

[Shyni]

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

homura can stil resort to talking to oriko, os they cna have an agreement that homura will take care of madoka not becoming a mahou shoujo and if she ever does oriko can kill madoka. that's irrelevant for homuar as madoka is an insta witch if she becomes a mahou shoujo to fight walpurgis.

Yeah, that might work, assuming Oriko or any other spinoff character is even relevant in other timelines.

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

Spoiler for higurashi:

yes, there are differences, the one i remember first is in the TIPS, rika's mom makes a big deal of rika knowing which days it rains, and how when rika messes up and it rains in days where rika is not expecting to rain rika becomes all happy.

Alright, thought so.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So basically, you just want to hand-wave away every possible continuity/character issue, and say "It works. Somehow."

Not every fan is going to find that a satisfying approach. What you call "thinking too hard" is what another fan considers a perfectly legitimate desire to understand a fictional universe that they care about.


It's much, much cleaner/easier to simply say that Oriko Magica is an AU narrative unconnected to the main anime narrative. And you're done. So that's my position, and I don't see anything wrong with it.

I dunno, Madoka Magica never really explains how all the time travel works. If Higurashi can have variables that are completely unrelated to the performing the loops, why not PMMM?

That, and going by the comic book analogy, how often do AU stories end with "alright, back to doing more of the same"?

That being said, I doubt Shinbo or Urobuchi even care enough to decide whether or not the spinoff characters even exist in the anime's timelines.

Also, this spinoff makes PMMM franchise feel more "complete" as a copy of Kamen Rider Ryuki, at least for me.

Spoiler for Ryuki stuff:

Ryuki had a secondary villain faction whose main plan was to do the exact same thing Oriko does, being save many lives by killing one person. Not just any person, but the reason behind the time loops. Not only that, said faction included a wacko who fights using big claws, and failed to defeat any of the main characters, especially the gun user.

Maybe a weird reason, but it filled in something that I honestly feel the anime itself was missing. Yes, I probably do have odd reasons for liking things.

[AuraTwilight]

Nobody asks why Yuma doesn't show up, and Homura definitely wouldn't kill her. If this does fit into canon, the explanation might have nothing to do with Homura.

This one's easy. Yuma demonstrably only crosses paths with Kyouko and contracts as a side effect of Oriko's interference. Kyubey all but says this.

t's only hard to escape if you insist that all variations across the timelines are due to Homura's actions. I doubt that's how it works. Did any other time loop anime have every single variation be directly or indirectly caused by how the person performing the loop acts? Somehow, I doubt that two timelines would go exactly the same even if Homura tries to do everything in the exact same way, as if she's the only actual variable.

There's no reason why not. For one thing, another factor for why timelines change is Madoka's growing power, which is why Oriko didn't target her in the preceding timelines.

I dunno, Madoka Magica never really explains how all the time travel works. If Higurashi can have variables that are completely unrelated to the performing the loops, why not PMMM?

You can't compare time travel rules between different series with different creators, bro. That's like arguing about Terminator's time travel by referencing Back to the Future.

[Shyni]

It's not like the PMMM anime ever really explained how things work. Most of the loops shown were from Homura's viewpoint anyway.

There's no reason why not. For one thing, another factor for why timelines change is Madoka's growing power, which is why Oriko didn't target her in the preceding timelines.

Madoka's power only does anything once she makes a wish, so that doesn't really make any difference. Plus, her witch is already pretty dangerous, even in one of the timelines when Homura still had glasses, so if Oriko is still relevant in other timelines, she would've done something previously. But the manga has post-glasses Homura, who didn't know about Oriko, previously, so Oriko probably didn't take any action before that, even though there has at least been one timeline with Gretchen before this.

I think Homura in this manga already knew about Gretchen too, since she seemed to understand what Oriko and Kirika were trying to do, more or less, and doesn't act surprised that they think killing Madoka will prevent the world being destroyed. Yet she was terribly unfamiliar with those two. So even if this isn't in the anime's continuity, there has been at least one previous timeline where Gretchen exists, but Oriko never did anything.