[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Used Can]

I believe there are 2 Kanons. I'll write down and post my idea whenever I don't feel lazy.

[UsagiTenpura]

Spoiler for Size:

Originally Posted by Pika_power

Which players are we talking about? George/Jessica/Kanon/Shannon, or Zephar and Furfur?

George/Jessica/Kanon/Shannon, or if we assume Shkanontrice, then simply Jessica and George. Same if you believe any of these can be Beato.

Originally Posted by Pika_power

Doesn't the EP1 endroll, and scenes from EP4 and EP6 disprove this? After all, only the first two arc bottles were found. The rest were written by Hachijou. Unless you're suggesting that even the 1998 scenes are written by Beato, and all of Umineko is just a script in Beato's study.

There haven't been a good reason to believe Arc 4's future scenes and arc 6's are true. That doesn't mean that the information in it is false. Arc 4 feels like Bern explored a possibility of a future, while arc 6 honestly cannot make sense. Ange seemingly clearly realizes that when she first confront Featherine. It's basically as if she went back in time, and her memories are fragmented in a way that she doesn't remember outside of the scenes we saw her in arc 4.

Also in arc 4 Ange never mentioned that arc 3-4 were found yet she attended the end of the third and the fourth game, while in arc 6 it seems common knowledge to her that arc 3-4-5 existed. Meaning basically that she'd have known about arc 5 before the events of arc 4. Sorry if this is a bit confusing, but basically Arc 6 is very hard to see as "real". If we go by the idea that arc 1-2-3-4-5-6 were all really written by Ryukishi, basically by telling us that "Hachijou figured out the truth by arc 1-2 and then could write the rest", he was telling us that "If someone else beside me had found the truth, as is possible by arc 1-2 alone, then they'd even be able to write new arcs". If he can send us such a message, I don't see why Beatrice would be herself unable to.

Again, I'm not suggesting this is necessarily the truth (tho I'm pretty certain arc 6's future doesn't make enough sense to be real). I'm well aware a "brutal" fate could be the ending. It's possible also that I'm right but some/all of my arguments are still wrong.

Originally Posted by Pika_power

If there is a happy ending, I think this point is the strongest. Bern is being set up to lose.

Then again, I'd say Bern losing would be the true truth of Rokkenjima being exposed. Although how that would work in conjunction with author theory is too difficult to theorise.

Just my guess, but it'd be sorta funnier if there's something she never figures out.

Originally Posted by Pika_power

The Meta is real. Or rather, it's not denied. In the same way that Battler and Lambda 'exist', Beato and Battler 'exist'. They could remain in their fragment, avoiding boredom forever. Or Beato could gain the power of creator, as is being discussed in the other thread. That could mean a happy end via magic, I guess.

I'd this point I am sorry but I have to say that isn't any different from an afterlife. If that's what Ryukishi will try to make us swallow I doubt I will be the only one dissapointed. All I can say is that I cannot prove this is wrong.
Something like "well everyone died and Ange had a horrible life but at least Meta-Beato and Meta-Battler aren't bored. I really hope not.
And something like magic revives everything... Well I guess Ange is called the apprentice Witch of Ressurection... But that feels even harder to swallow somehow. It's nontheless arguably what happened over and over in Higurashi.

Originally Posted by Pika_power

She wasn't strictly to be shot by him. Ideally the henchmen would shoot her. But I get what you're saying, and I like that theory.

Thanks!

[Disz]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

How about this. A storm made a boat with gold crash on Rokkenjima. The only survivor was Kuwadorian's Beato that was a small baby. The only witness was Kinzo. He named the baby after the storm.

Sorry ,I am aware this was posted quite a while ago,but this just hit me.
Although I believe it is quite foolish to believe that a storm brought him gold,that is not the point.What I want to ask is...when did he receive the baby,and when was Nastuhis baby taken away?

If they happen to be the same...we could probably assume it could have been Beatrice?Or was it identified in red truth to be a male?If not,it might be safe to say the servant fell off a cliff with the baby,Natsuhi came n cried and what not,left,only to be found by Goldsmith,thinking the servant body was a sacrafice for the baby,picked it up and raised it as it's own.Then years later Rosa finds Betwo and....hm.Does this contradict anything/any hints toward this?

[TsundereCake]

Has Ryukishi written any post-Episode 6 TIPs?

Also, request for the "Game Master Battler" TIP. Thanks in advance.

[Jan-Poo]

There's a link to a list of all the translated TIPS so far in my sig. three of them were made after EP6, and I heard there are others.

[DaBackpack]

EP6 had the battle scenes we wanted (Beato vs. Erika),
and battle scenes no one expected (Kyrie vs. Jessica),


Therefore, I demand EP7 to have a Nanjo versus Gohda fight.

[Leafsnail]

Has anyone else been wondering why "Kinzo is dead at the start of all games" is something close to Beatrice's heart? I mean, you could understand Shkannontrice, "the other Battler", Kanon actually being Kinzo or Beatrice's true identity being integral to her, but what vital thing did Kinzo's death status actually tell us about the nature of the witch?

The only thing I can think of is that "Beatrice" was using Kinzo's seal as evidence that the FFT was Kinzo's will, and that Kyrie's suggestion that Kinzo is dead in ep4 prevents any kind of fake first twilight (so the culprit just gets out their rifle and goes on something of a rampage).

And looking back over ep2 (the one I'm struggling on most at the moment) I was wondering - what is the most popular theory for why Kanon is recognised after he is confirmed as dead (excluding personality death?).

[Renall]

Most popular? Assuming no personalities or personality death, he was "acknowledged" as alive by mutual lie. That is, Gohda/Shannon/Genji said Kanon was alive and that they saw him. At least partially, they were lying.

[ameskitty]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

There's a link to a list of all the translated TIPS so far in my sig. three of them were made after EP6, and I heard there are others.

As far as I know the only other one is a sequel to the Jessica's Mother's Day tip, and it's...hilarious (the ending, at least) . I don't believe anybody's translated it yet, though.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Disz

Sorry ,I am aware this was posted quite a while ago,but this just hit me.
Although I believe it is quite foolish to believe that a storm brought him gold,that is not the point.What I want to ask is...when did he receive the baby,and when was Nastuhis baby taken away?

If they happen to be the same...we could probably assume it could have been Beatrice?Or was it identified in red truth to be a male?If not,it might be safe to say the servant fell off a cliff with the baby,Natsuhi came n cried and what not,left,only to be found by Goldsmith,thinking the servant body was a sacrafice for the baby,picked it up and raised it as it's own.Then years later Rosa finds Betwo and....hm.Does this contradict anything/any hints toward this?

It's not a red, but it does contradict the "All the clues have been given in arc 1-2-3-4", there's nothing that really hints Natsuhi had an adopted child + that child fell from a cliff, especially not precisely 19 years ago.

Now I wrote that about the gold in a boat, but I was making someone's else theory work, sorta. I honestly believe that Kinzo never found/was given any gold. It seriously would take out the value of Kinzo entirely, and simply turn him into a lucky and ridiculously unfair person. He blames his children as faillure but if he basically just won the lottery he's the one with the LEAST credit of all of the family. Not to mention that half of his insane behaviors have next to no justification if that's true. Even things like Genji's ridiculous loyalty to him feels like it'd be a ridiculous strech if he simply found gold.

I seriously believe, in honor to Kinzo, that the gold was a scam. Krauss' theory in arc 1 is likely right, tho there was really 1 gold ingot, it's very possibly Kinzo sold all the assets of the Ushiromiya to get enough money to get a single one of them. Eva is shown to have done something similar to get money in post arc 3. Basically all form of magic in Umineko are illusions. There are no miracles, but sometimes there is the illusion of a miracle, the same can really apply to the gold. So why does the gold even exist now? Because Kinzo is a good liar. Before anyone figures out the truth about any of his lies, he makes it into the truth. The gold didn't appear magically on Rokkenjima, it took Kinzo's whole career to amass it slowly. Why is he even grateful to Beatrice in the first place for the gold? She might be the one who helped him designing that scam, or simply inspired him to. She might've shown a few tricks to Kinzo and he used that as "core ideas" to develop his scam.

Any theories that Kinzo found the gold contradicts completely the idea of him being a genius who have incredible timing in his bets. He'd also be nothing like Battler at this point. It's like suggesting Battler makes a stroll in Rokkenjima and somehow finds the gold by mistake without solving the epitaph and still become the heir. That'd be really cheap.

Originally Posted by ameskitty

As far as I know the only other one is a sequel to the Jessica's Mother's Day tip, and it's...hilarious (the ending, at least) . I don't believe anybody's translated it yet, though.

Oh do you mind resuming it in a few lines?

[Pika_power]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Spoiler for Size:

Now I wrote that about the gold in a boat, but I was making someone's else theory work, sorta. I honestly believe that Kinzo never found/was given any gold. It seriously would take out the value of Kinzo entirely, and simply turn him into a lucky and ridiculously unfair person. He blames his children as faillure but if he basically just won the lottery he's the one with the LEAST credit of all of the family. Not to mention that half of his insane behaviors have next to no justification if that's true. Even things like Genji's ridiculous loyalty to him feels like it'd be a ridiculous strech if he simply found gold.

I seriously believe, in honor to Kinzo, that the gold was a scam. Krauss' theory in arc 1 is likely right, tho there was really 1 gold ingot, it's very possibly Kinzo sold all the assets of the Ushiromiya to get enough money to get a single one of them. Eva is shown to have done something similar to get money in post arc 3. Basically all form of magic in Umineko are illusions. There are no miracles, but sometimes there is the illusion of a miracle, the same can really apply to the gold. So why does the gold even exist now? Because Kinzo is a good liar. Before anyone figures out the truth about any of his lies, he makes it into the truth. The gold didn't appear magically on Rokkenjima, it took Kinzo's whole career to amass it slowly. Why is he even grateful to Beatrice in the first place for the gold? She might be the one who helped him designing that scam, or simply inspired him to. She might've shown a few tricks to Kinzo and he used that as "core ideas" to develop his scam.

Any theories that Kinzo found the gold contradicts completely the idea of him being a genius who have incredible timing in his bets. He'd also be nothing like Battler at this point. It's like suggesting Battler makes a stroll in Rokkenjima and somehow finds the gold by mistake without solving the epitaph and still become the heir. That'd be really cheap.

But it's said the Kyoto president was offered to pick out any ingot from the pile, and get it tested.

Are you implying that Kinzo got one ingot, put it in the fake stack, then bet everything on the Kyoto president picking that single ingot?

That's a ridiculous idea.

Then again, this IS Kinzo we're talking about...

[Renall]

If his gold were fake, why go to the trouble of "turning it real?" Once he's made profits off the ventures that his initial loans earn him, he can simply pay those off and never show anyone his "gold" again. He no longer needs it for collateral (as now he has other businesses which can be used instead). What point would there be to that?

Obviously before ep5 the prevailing theory I seem to recall is that most of the gold was fake, but Lambda appears to have shot that down.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Pika_power

But it's said the Kyoto president was offered to pick out any ingot from the pile, and get it tested.

Are you implying that Kinzo got one ingot, put it in the fake stack, then bet everything on the Kyoto president picking that single ingot?

That's a ridiculous idea.

Then again, this IS Kinzo we're talking about...

Luck would surely be a huge part of it, but if Kinzo knew this guy well, he might have been able to guess which general area he would try to take one from. For example, it's a fairly safe bet that most people wouldn't have taken one from the upper left of the stack, since that wouldn't feel "random" (the old trick about multiple choice tests. Ask someone to make one up in their head, and they'll almost never set 'a' as the correct answer). The better Kinzo knew this guy, the better chances he could have of guessing which one he'd pick.

If his gold were fake, why go to the trouble of "turning it real?" Once he's made profits off the ventures that his initial loans earn him, he can simply pay those off and never show anyone his "gold" again. He no longer needs it for collateral (as now he has other businesses which can be used instead). What point would there be to that?

Remember all his ghost said about "giving everything back to Beatrice, all of my honor, wealth, and gold". That might have something to do with it. Plus, it would silence (almost) any remaining doubts that his old story about the gold was a lie.

[UsagiTenpura]

People made entire nations built a Pyramid in their honor to make their own legend immortal, there is nothing even vaguely weird in comparison that Kinzo would make his own legend become true.

For the rest... Chronotrig answered for me ^^

[Renall]

That doesn't make any sense unless it was fundamental to his epitaph plan to give away real gold. Now, that may be the case, but that raises some questions, like:

• Was Krauss actually embezzling, or was Kinzo the one embezzling... from himself?
• Who was in control of the family finances? If Krauss had a hand in it, wouldn't the gradual disappearance of funding into creating a hidden gold stockpile come to somebody's notice? Especially when he's in financial straits.
• How did Kinzo buy people's silence in casting and stamping the gold? Where'd he do it? How'd he smuggle it to Rokkenjima and store it without anybody seeing him do it?

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

That doesn't make any sense unless it was fundamental to his epitaph plan to give away real gold. Now, that may be the case, but that raises some questions, like:

• Was Krauss actually embezzling, or was Kinzo the one embezzling... from himself?
• Who was in control of the family finances? If Krauss had a hand in it, wouldn't the gradual disappearance of funding into creating a hidden gold stockpile come to somebody's notice? Especially when he's in financial straits.
• How did Kinzo buy people's silence in casting and stamping the gold? Where'd he do it? How'd he smuggle it to Rokkenjima and store it without anybody seeing him do it?

Well, if we trust ghost Kinzo, he didn't want to give his fortune to his children. So, unless Krauss actually outsmarted Kinzo, I doubt he embezzled any more than Kinzo wanted him to. Since Kinzo seems to have at least some financial talent, it makes sense that he would have a way of protecting the greater share of his wealth from his children, if he wanted to.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Renall

That doesn't make any sense unless it was fundamental to his epitaph plan to give away real gold. Now, that may be the case, but that raises some questions, like:

• Was Krauss actually embezzling, or was Kinzo the one embezzling... from himself?
• Who was in control of the family finances? If Krauss had a hand in it, wouldn't the gradual disappearance of funding into creating a hidden gold stockpile come to somebody's notice? Especially when he's in financial straits.
• How did Kinzo buy people's silence in casting and stamping the gold? Where'd he do it? How'd he smuggle it to Rokkenjima and store it without anybody seeing him do it?

I'm not sure why that doesn't make any sense according to you. It's not very different from from Krauss' own scam.

Kinzo was in control of his own finances? If no one can notice that he spent the funds to built Kuwadorian then there's nothing weird about him keeping 10 tons of gold over like... what 40 years? I'm not suggesting Kinzo "just finished" doing this. Most of the points you raise have been raised and answered by the sibblings' discussions over the arcs.

Kinzo bought people's silence about having a girl prisoner in Kuwadorian. Now, if people were to open their mouth, which one they'd open up their mouth about?
Also it's a fact that the gold has the Ushiromiya Crest on it, so no matter, even if Kinzo found the gold he still had to recast and stamp it anyway. So that's not really an argument, however it's arguably a good question. Tho with theories such as "Kinzo has a nuke on Rokkenjima" having his own place to cast his gold doesn't seem very messed up of an idea. Actually I'm not too certain about this but I think I remember that some foundries weren't that big.

Some guy smuggled a lot of stuff to Kuwadorian without being seen, what's so weird about that? Also there's 1000 ingots, if Kinzo bought them 1 per day on himself there's nothing that would be weird about it not being being it. It only takes 1000 days... over like 30-40 years (depending on when he had access to Rokkenjima I guess).



Edit: About that president who went along with Kinzo's scam, the very idea he was able to bring back one of them is so fishy I'm not sure why that needs to be really explained. Especially since Krauss answered that himself in arc 1. Really, it's sorta silly to ignore completely what they say.

[Renall]

Is there any proof the Ushiromiya one-winged crest predates Kinzo's tenure as family head? He could just as easily have created the crest based on the stamp on the gold as gotten the gold actually stamped.

I'm just not seeing any sanity to doing it if the gold was initially fake. Might as well just leave the fake gold with a note taped to it: "Gold is mostly fake, but nobody knows that; have fun scamming people, love Grandpa." Crazy as it sounds, I think it more plausible that he somehow actually got his hands on gold he wasn't supposed to find - gold which would have been out of the usual channels and thus unaccounted-for - than to purchase accounted-for wealth over time to fill in a "gold" stockpile he already had.

[Tyabann]

Hey everyone, I'm back. Just finished Ep6, and I think I might have a solution to the logic error/Battler's closed room that doesn't (directly) involve Shkanon. Since it's not originally my theory, it may have been posted here before, but a search of the relevant keywords doesn't bring up anything, so... here goes:

Spoiler for big-ass theory:

Most theories which attempt to solve the logic error rely on the idea the the room next to the cousin's room was never confirmed to have its window sealed. However, since Dlanor sealed the use of that window in theories with the blue truth, until it was removed, there must have been another solution. Featherine confirmed as much, and this is what this theory attempts to do.

Moetrice's awakening near the end of the game implies that the "impossible trick" she used was found in a book "she'd read once". By Knox 8, this book must have been foreshadowed at some point.

The only book that could possibly be relevant to this situation is Maria's puzzle book! The illustration of the cups and the coins trick, a puzzle with a solution that was never given to us in-game, was even shown as all the previous closed room diagrams flashed by. Keep this in mind as I explain the rest of this theory.

From the time [Erika] entered the room to the time of the logic error, [Erika], Battler, and Kanon were the only ones who went in or out of the guest room. However, this does not prevent someone else having been inside the guest room from the very beginning, before Erika even entered it the first time. After all, when Erika and Dlanor entered the second time, except for one location, there is no one to be seen in the bedroom. This one location is the closet, and no red prevents two people from hiding inside the closet at the same time.

Let's just say that this extra person is Jessica. Both she and Battler were sealed together inside of the guestroom. This can explain the contradiction between Kanon being without a doubt the only one to rescue Battler and Kanon not existing within the guest room, since if Jessica is inside the room, she can murder Kanon, either literally or metaphorically, while staying behind herself. It was never explicitly confirmed that there was never anyone at all inside the guest room after both Battler and Kanon had vanished.

I will admit, of course, that this theory has many, many problems with it, and should be destroyed utterly by several key red texts, most notably Erika's assertion that at the time of the deconstruction of the closed rooms, none existed within the rooms except the victims, which Battler acknowledged. Yet, nowhere is there any red that states the 'victim' Battler was the same Battler who entered or exited the room. There have been theories that suggest that "Jessica" is in fact the daughter of Ushiromiya Asumu, and thus should also bear the name Battler. This does not contradict the red text of the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon only being able to be used by those people, as Jessica-Battler is not being referred to in that context.

There is more red, of course, that contradicts this theory, namely that everyone else is in the cousins' room and the cousins' room is guaranteed to be a perfect closed room until the end. This should prevent Kanon from ever leaving the cousin's room, and may even prevent Jessica from being a victim. However, that is the very crux of this theory!

When he went to rescue Battler, Kanon never had to leave the cousins' room.

It's just like the riddle of the cups and the coins. The construction of the cousins' room has never been shown, therefore, nothing prevents it from being composed of multiple rooms! Battler's guestroom is not in the mansion at all! It is inside the cousins' room! When Erika told Hideyoshi she was going into the cousins' room, she wasn't lying; she never left the guesthouse at all!

This is what Beatrice is referring to when she says that she saw the trick in a book once, and what Battler means when he says it's not a trick you could use in a mystery. It's a completely unfair trick, relying entirely on unreliable points of view, and as a result is not something Erika could ever think of, which is why it's an impossible closed room.

And most importantly, it explains a crucial contradiction almost everyone has noticed: Erika's location during the location check. Everyone else is inside the cousin's room... and thus, so was Erika.

Just by the existence of a nine-year-old's riddle book, this level of reasoning is possible.

What do you think, everyone!?

Edit: R-Revised... my master.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

I'm just not seeing any sanity to doing it if the gold was initially fake. Might as well just leave the fake gold with a note taped to it: "Gold is mostly fake, but nobody knows that; have fun scamming people, love Grandpa." Crazy as it sounds, I think it more plausible that he somehow actually got his hands on gold he wasn't supposed to find - gold which would have been out of the usual channels and thus unaccounted-for - than to purchase accounted-for wealth over time to fill in a "gold" stockpile he already had.

What if he wants to set up one of the servants as the next head, and that gold is supposed to be one mark of that headship? After all, they'd need all the help they could get to stop the siblings from scheming against them. Of course, the siblings would test the value of all the gold, especially after the rumors of trickery from the first set. That's the kind of trick that could never work twice.

Also, if he's trying to truly pass the headship on to "Beatrice's successor", that gold is the ultimate symbol for doing so. He created that old story, I think, because he wanted to credit Beatrice for his success, not his wife or his family. Proving that the gold really exists would be the final touch on the illusion that he's spent most of his life creating.