Medaka Box [Manga]

[DawnEmperor]

@Clarste Who says they're meaningless victories? I admittedly have to revise my perspective a bit. Zenkichi's fights have never really been about sheer power or amazing abilities.(mentioning those fights was more in response to Guernsey's comment about him getting stomped all the time).

I remember you making a similar post about this on tv tropes, but Zenkichi, despite not being the main victory still has an important role in the support. Perhaps I'm just looking at his same contributions optimistically. Yes, you can look upon the Medaka II instance as morally ambiguous, but without improving upon the character which was there for nearly half the series, it's a meaningless victory. Medaka's character(influeced by Zenkichi's childish ideals) goes through an arc where the students gradually don't need to rely on her. It's not that Medaka was completely wrong(that's why Zenkichi wanted to point out the "too right").

We've got people who think Zenkichi's role is too small, that he's too weak, others who feel that is precisely his role in commentary.

[ccie20012]

Zen a great character who has human motivation.
He naturally can not be idiotic protagonist "Shounen manga".
He did not come to save the world, and something like that.
The perfect hero "Shounen manga" - Iihiko.
Or rather parody to main character.
I believe in the idea of ​​the manga, Zen must now save Medaka-chan.
Not because it is important to save the world or another idiocy.
And because he needs to save a girlfriend (Medaka) and friend (Shiranui).

[Wolfenstein]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Snip.

You do know that this is basically a run-down of, mostly, with some disagreements here and there, of how I view his character, right?
And yet, on what contention those any of this mean that Zenkichi has lived a life of pointless accomplishments, like Clarste is stating?
I also directly said that he gave-up all the privileges of main-characterization, so I agree on that point. I don't expect Zenkichi to be an overpowered badass who saves the day, I don't expect him to hog all the screen-time, and I don't expect him to be a hero.

You're misunderstanding. It's not that people want Zenkichi to take-up the flak.

It's that people want Medaka gone. Why?

Well, because she's boring, life-less and extremely annoying. And yet, even in an alledged Devil Style world, she's still the main-character, and main-characters still exist, and that's something which people didn't want. That's the inconsistancy from the Flask Plan Arc that fans hate, and leads tons of people(from what I've seen) to think that Shiranui simply ate Devil Style into a skill that "literally does nothing at all".

And, it's true, Nishio can't fully escape the concept of a main character, even if he metaphiscally does so in the story, because in the end, Medaka Box still falls into tropes, despite it's alleged deconstruction of them.

And yet, nothing of this bears anything on the thought of Zenkichi being a character of meaningless victories. I don't think you can, or should, definite him by victories, like you do Medaka or Kumagawa, because he's not really about that, unlike them.

[Tyabann]

I'd like to hope that Medaka being "dead" will allow the manga to finally break new ground and go in the direction that it should have after Chapter 140, but of course that won't happen.

[Wolfenstein]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I'd like to hope that Medaka being "dead" will allow the manga to finally break new ground and go in the direction that it should have after Chapter 140, but of course that won't happen.

One can only hope, one can only hope. Even if it's a fool's hope.

~~

I'd also like to add that, while me, and several others thought and hoped that Zenkichi would take up the flak, for the possibility of substituting God-awful Medaka, and because Anshin'san described the guy as the type of new-world main character the manga would have(i.e not aided by the fickle hand of fate) the main motivation for wanting the dude as main-character wasn't about that(well, it was about Medaka, but...).

It's simply that people like the character, and he seems(still does) to be the logical choice to follow around in new, less dangerous, less grand adventures(maybe ones that focus more on the characters) - because people like that human side.

So, you see, it's a blend of both Anshin'san's words, and Medaka's terribleness, in the end. And, honestly, neither are truly bad reasons for wanting the manga to have followed something different after 140.

Hell, we thought it did, at first. The Student Council going on a rescue mission, everyone getting character development and screen-time in fights.

That is, until Medaka showed-up, and just did her usual routine(trump everyone effortlessly - Medaka style!).

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Wolfenstein

That is, until Medaka showed-up, and just did her usual routine(trump everyone effortlessly - Medaka style!).

I don't think I'll ever get over how much of a disappointment that was.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Wolfenstein

You do know that this is basically a run-down of, mostly, with some disagreements here and there, of how I view his character, right?
And yet, on what contention those any of this mean that Zenkichi has lived a life of pointless accomplishments, like Clarste is stating?
I also directly said that he gave-up all the privileges of main-characterization, so I agree on that point. I don't expect Zenkichi to be an overpowered badass who saves the day, I don't expect him to hog all the screen-time, and I don't expect him to be a hero.

It's not really that Zenkichi's achievements are totally meaningless, but it is true that virtually all of the moments where Zenkichi has "won" or looked cool in the manga got eventually covered up by reveals or developments which made them insignificant in the bigger picture. Most of the examples have already been brought up: i.e. beating Munakata, restoring Medaka II's memories, "killing" Kumagawa, etc. etc.

The only exception to this was the conclusion to the Not Equals arc (which you brought up). But things like that entire period in the Jet-Black Wedding arc which followed him eventually fell back into the original pattern. The point is that this is entirely correct/natural because Zenkichi basically made a decision which by definition devotes himself to that pattern.

You're misunderstanding. It's not that people want Zenkichi to take-up the flak.

It's that people want Medaka gone. Why?

Well, because she's boring, life-less and extremely annoying. And yet, even in an alledged Devil Style world, she's still the main-character, and main-characters still exist, and that's something which people didn't want. That's the inconsistancy from the Flask Plan Arc that fans hate, and leads tons of people(from what I've seen) to think that Shiranui simply ate Devil Style into a skill that "literally does nothing at all".

And, it's true, Nishio can't escape the concept of a main character, even if he metaphiscally does so in the story, because in the end, Medaka Box still falls into tropes, despite it's alleged deconstruction of them.

There's no such thing as an alleged "Devil Style" world, though. Devil Style affects Zenkichi himself, it has no relation to other character's meta-narrative (i.e. Main Character, etc.) status. In the end, Medaka beat Ajimu because she managed to convince her (and therefore the manga) to continue living, and therefore that is why the continuing story focuses on characters and plot conflicts which are actually important in their universe. A story which focuses on (by definition) meta-narratively unimportant events/characters is a story which is dead.

In any case, I have no interest in completely subjective complaints about Medaka being lifeless or "boring". Thematically, from a literary or storytelling perspective about what Medaka Box ultimately wants to say, Medaka has as much significance as any other character in the story, period.

(Since when is using tropes or narrative conventions wrong in the first place? No matter what, it would be completely retarded for any story to try to be a deconstruction of everything. Besides that, simply criticizing random storytelling tropes as if to say "this isn't totally accurate" is completely pointless if you don't actually have something new to say in place of it. Medaka Box has been very consistent about the tropes it actually intends to deconstruct. Complaining that "oh, it still uses tropes in other places" is completely dumb and doesn't say anything.)

And yet, nothing of this bears anything on the thought of Zenkichi being a character of meaningless victories. I don't think you can, or should, definite him by victories, like you do Medaka or Kumagawa, because he's not really about that, unlike them.

If you'd just like the wording changed, I would personally more accurately describe Zenkichi as "A minor character who has accepted being a minor character." There are a couple of other things you could add on top of that, but it essentially captures the main point of his character.

[Homura7]

There we go again with the Medaka hate. Geez, you guys are hopeless...

And to who said Shiranui ate Zen's Devil Style, think about that twice and try to discern what's wrong with that statement of yours. Devil Style, in case you still haven't noticed, killed Medaka.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo

Devil Style, in case you still haven't noticed, killed Medaka.

That, like just about everything else we talk about, is nothing but a supposition at this time.

[Wolfenstein]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

It's not really that Zenkichi's achievements are totally meaningless, but it is true that virtually all of the moments where Zenkichi has "won" or looked cool in the manga got eventually covered up by reveals or developments which made them insignificant in the bigger picture. Most of the examples have already been brought up: i.e. beating Munakata, restoring Medaka II's memories, "killing" Kumagawa, etc. etc.

Sorry, but I completely and absolutely fail to see how moving on to the bigger plot-points renders the other plot-points insignificant.

Zenkichi's victories were never supposed to be the climax of any arc(save the one), and I fail to see why you think the way you do, other than a gross over-analysis of the story, but hey, it's your opinion to have. I can respect it.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

There's no such thing as an alleged "Devil Style" world, though. Devil Style affects Zenkichi himself, it has no relation to other character's meta-narrative (i.e. Main Character, etc.) status.

Does the musical battle of the bands not ring any bells here? After all, Devil Style is the reason a long-lost archenemy or a long-lost brother didn't appear to delay the election.
Instead, a relatively normal thing happened(one with a much higher probability). And this unnamed arch-enemy hasn't even met Zenkichi or Medaka yet because of the skill.

What I mean is, Devil Style's barriers are rather ambiguous, because it's definition is, too. Not going to say I'm right or you're wrong, but I got a different vibe from it's exposition.

One must remember Anshin'san's wording, after all.

"(...)My new world(...)"

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

In the end, Medaka beat Ajimu because she managed to convince her (and therefore the manga) to continue living, and therefore that is why the continuing story focuses on characters and plot conflicts which are actually important in their universe. A story which focuses on (by definition) meta-narratively unimportant events/characters is a story which is dead.

I fail to see the relevance. You must be thinking too deeply into all this. It's just a silly shounen manga, after all - not a DaVinci painting.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Since when is using tropes or narrative conventions wrong in the first place? No matter what, it would be completely retarded for any story to try to be a deconstruction of everything. Besides that, simply criticizing random storytelling tropes as if to say "this isn't totally accurate" is completely pointless if you don't actually have something new to say in place of it. Medaka Box has been very consistent about the tropes it actually intends to deconstruct. Complaining that "oh, it still uses tropes in other places" is completely dumb and doesn't say anything.)

Well, let me put this as simply as possible.

Pre-Defeat Medaka: A pompous, self-absorbed, generally just unlikeable Mary Sue.

Post-Defeat Medaka: A pompous, self-absorbed, generally just unlikeable Mary Sue.

I honestly fail to see the point of Nishio's deconstruction of her Mary-Sueness to just repeat the same arc.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

If you'd just like the wording changed, I would personally more accurately describe Zenkichi as "A minor character who has accepted being a minor character." There are a couple of other things you could add on top of that, but it essentially captures the main point of his character.

Sure, that's an opinion.

Personally I think it's a rather depressing and cynical way to view the acheivements of a character, and again, I have no understanding of how you reached this conclusion reading the manga, but no-one is alike in this world, there'll always be disagreements.

Originally Posted by Kurosu-Shirudo

There we go again with the Medaka hate. Geez, you guys are hopeless...

I don't see what's so terrible about it. I think it's perfectly natural for some tastes(usually a good number of them) to hate Medaka.

I mean, have you seen other Medaka Box forums?

There was practically a world-wide celebration by the fans when Medaka's nre Box became a coffin.

Originally Posted by Kurosu-Shirudo

And to who said Shiranui ate Zen's Devil Style, think about that twice and try to discern what's wrong with that statement of yours. Devil Style, in case you still haven't noticed, killed Medaka.

Chillax, friend.

And I agree, that's a theory. Albeit, an unlikely one.

I think Anshin' offered a much better explanation to the dilemma of "Hero vs Hero".

[Homura7]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

That, like just about everything else we talk about, is nothing but a supposition at this time.

Well, TBF that same ability made Medaka lost the election, so I don't think is that farfetched.

Originally Posted by Wolfenstein

I don't see what's so terrible about it. I think it's perfectly natural for some tastes(usually a good number of them) to hate Medaka.

To do that is fine, but I don't see any need to remind us constantly how much you dislike her. But this is probably because I don't dislike any character in this series.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Wolfenstein

Sorry, but I completely and absolutely fail to see how moving on to the bigger plot-points renders the other plot-points insignificant.

Zenkichi's victories were never supposed to be the climax of any arc(save the one), and I fail to see why you think the way you do, other than a gross over-analysis of the story, but hey, it's your opinion to have. I can respect it.

It's not just "moving on to bigger plot points". There are specific plot reveals after nearly every one of Zenkichi's achievements which act in a way to discredit or reduce the impressiveness of what he accomplished. Beating Munakata --> Munakata was trying his hardest not to kill anybody. Reaching Medaka II's heart/restoring her personality --> she used Yuzuhashi's mind-reading skill and Oudou's brain-washing skill. Killing Kumagawa --> Kumagawa was concealing that All-Fiction made him immortal/invincible. Etc. etc.

The point is not necessarily that Zenkichi's achievements have no meaning. However, one thing that is true about Medaka Box's narrative is that Nishio tends to tell the story as if Zenkichi is a main or important character (or that he did something important), only later to reveal that he isn't/didn't really. This is the main point to be made. Medaka Box/Nishio has a habit of pretending that Zenkichi is more impressive or important than he really is (and then deliberately bringing the story/readers back to reality).

Does the musical battle of the bands not ring any bells here? After all, Devil Style is the reason a long-lost archenemy or a long-lost brother didn't appear to delay the election.
Instead, a relatively normal thing happened(one with a much higher probability). And this unnamed arch-enemy hasn't even met Zenkichi or Medaka yet because of the skill.

What I mean is, Devil Style's barriers are rather ambiguous, because it's definition is, too. Not going to say I'm right or you're wrong, but I got a different vibe from it's exposition.

One must remember Anshin'san's wording, after all.

"(...)My new world(...)"

Something happening with the battle of the bands wouldn't have delayed the election. The election was set during Winter Break in December, whereas the school cultural festival occurred early in November.

Also, the result "the performers with the most professional mindset appeared" isn't in itself something that actually has high probability. In fact, if you just picked a bunch of performers at random from a list like Medaka did, normally you would just get a bunch of average performers. It was hinted (more like, Zenkichi directly stated) that it was because it was Medaka picking them that she got the most highly skilled performers which made a huge success for the school cultural festival.

So in this sense, it's pretty clear that Devil Style did not interfere with Medaka's goals for the school festival (i.e. "have a highly enjoyable festival which makes the most people happy", I guess). I'm not sure what Ajimu exactly meant by saying that running into a long lost brother or archenemy "might" have happened, but I think that, if Zenkichi had been given traditional main character powers, those coincidences would have turned out in favour of Zenkichi. Like I dunno, that archenemy could've ended up seriously injuring/disabling Medaka, or awakening her dark side or something, thus giving Zenkichi an advantage in the elections. That might've been the idea.

In any case, the fact that Devil Style didn't effect Medaka's luck in causing her to draw the three most famous entertainment performers does pretty blatantly portray that Devil Style does not universally disable main character powers. Well, if this was not made clear enough by the continuing story from that point onwards anyway. So my main point, that there has never really been a reason to stop assuming Medaka is the main character, is still there.

Well, let me put this as simply as possible.

Pre-Defeat Medaka: A pompous, self-absorbed, generally just unlikeable Mary Sue.

Post-Defeat Medaka: A pompous, self-absorbed, generally just unlikeable Mary Sue.

I honestly fail to see the point of Nishio's deconstruction of her Mary-Sueness to just repeat the same arc.

Medaka's "defeat" was not a deconstruction of anything except for her ideals of helping others. To be fair, that is a massive deconstruction of her character at the start of the series. As someone who initially thought that Medaka's goal of "turn Hakoniwa Academy into a field of flowers" was fucking retarded, that's a pretty huge deconstruction to me.

However, in the first place, Medaka was never a Mary Sue so she could be deconstructed. Rather, her Mary-Sueness is the deconstruction. By being a Mary Sue, Medaka deconstructs the shounen manga illusion that victory is about anything besides (main character) power. Ideals, effort, determination; none of that actually matters. It is the sheer injustice of simply being a main character, which grants you victory.

But beyond that, the story has long moved past the point of just harping about main characters. The entire "main characters == always win" theme was already finished by the end of Kumagawa's battle with her. At the present stage, Nishio is exploring the concepts of Ajimu--a being who is above main characters by being aware of Medaka Box as just a manga universe--and Iihiko, a being who is higher still.

[Clarste]

For the record, I'm pretty sure the long-lost archenemy who failed to appear at the school festival was referring to Sukinasaki who failed to meet Kumagawa. Well, not specifically since it's something that didn't happen (along with everything else that didn't happen), but it was meant to poke fun at the manga's own dramatic introduction of them, which led to an anticlimax of sorts when they didn't really do anything. Sukinasaki was used as an example of what didn't happen, by showing a close call.

[Wolfenstein]

Originally Posted by Kurusu

To do that is fine, but I don't see any need to remind us constantly how much you dislike her. But this is probably because I don't dislike any character in this series.

It really wasn't my intent to piss anyone off, but that simply came into the discussion because that is one explanation for what people wanted and expected after 140.

Sorry, I just forget that this is one of the most neutral Medaka Box forums ever when it comes to Medaka. I forget that I'm in different company, so sorry for that.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Snip.

Look, I mean this in the nicest way possible, but why is everything such an ordeal with you?

I think you're a bright guy, but it's clear to me that you're way past the point of overanalyzing the manga when you write that much text.
What I mean is...it's really hard to keep reading that uncondensed stuff, it's too long. I really don't have the dispositon to read and reflect on all that.

Originally Posted by Clarste

For the record, I'm pretty sure the long-lost archenemy who failed to appear at the school festival was referring to Sukinasaki who failed to meet Kumagawa. Well, not specifically since it's something that didn't happen (along with everything else that didn't happen), but it was meant to poke fun at the manga's own dramatic introduction of them, which led to an anticlimax of sorts when they didn't really do anything. Sukinasaki was used as an example of what didn't happen, by showing a close call.

IIRC, Sukinasaki didn't seem to be one of two options Anshin'san used as an example.

Spoiler:

I don't think she fits the description for that. The life-long archenemy or the long-lost brother simply weren't required by fate to show-up and produce a plot-line.
I'm also curious as to if Kumagawa was drawn away by Devil Style, or if Suki was drawn in by it.

But I think Kumagawa just abstained for his own reasons, and Suki appearing was just normal(hiring professional musicians).
Mainly, I don't think Devil Style negates a coincidence from ever happening, just dosen't make them nescessary and certain to happen.

The two options mentioned by Anshin'san will probably never appear to us now. Which is a bummer.

Regardless, it's pretty vague at this point, and without even a mention of Devl Style, all that's left for us now is speculation.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

By being a Mary Sue, Medaka deconstructs the shounen manga illusion that victory is about anything besides (main character) power. Ideals, effort, determination; none of that actually matters. It is the sheer injustice of simply being a main character, which grants you victory.

Thats nonsense. One piece is the most successful and arguibly most influential shounen manga/ And it doesnt follow those thropes. Luffy the main hero of it gets overpowered plenty of times and lost plenty of battles one of which resulted in

Spoiler for st:

death of his brother.

So by your logc OP is a deconstruction of shounen by itself despite being a rolemodel of most of shounens nowadays and responsible of creating a lot of shounen tropes.

[Libros]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Thats nonsense. One piece is the most successful and arguibly most influential shounen manga/ And it doesnt follow those thropes. Luffy the main hero of it gets overpowered plenty of times and lost plenty of battles one of which resulted in

Spoiler for st:

death of his brother.

So by your logc OP is a deconstruction of shounen by itself despite being a rolemodel of most of shounens nowadays and responsible of creating a lot of shounen tropes.

Funnily enough, we have Fairy tale in which the MC, Natsu, at the end of each arc follows the trope to a tee, he pretty much always wins at the end. Odd, huh? I've always wondered how far in the story line Natsu would have gotten if Zenkichi was there to troll him with Devil style. Just some food for thought.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Thats nonsense. One piece is the most successful and arguibly most influential shounen manga/ And it doesnt follow those thropes.

One Piece is a bit unusual in that regard. MB isn't exactly wrong in its critiques and examinations of the battle manga genre.
It's also notable that neither OP nor any of the currently-running shounen manga are mentioned here, either:

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[Wolfenstein]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

It's also notable that neither OP nor any of the currently-running shounen manga are mentioned here, either:

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Now, this I find really interestingly done by Nishio's part, even though I have never brought it up.

What do you folks think of this?

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

It's also notable that neither OP nor any of the currently-running shounen manga are mentioned here, either

Which is what I find funny. Nisio tackles shounen genre but cannot tackle the real big ones. Whats the point of mentioning some shounen titles number of which come totally second-assed and poor in comparison when you cannot tackle the most successful and influential manga of shounen history?

Its like talking about pebbles on the road without actually talking about the road.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

I think at this point Nisio needs to move on from the deconstructing shounen tropes/following them almost to a T storyline. Anyone can deconstruct a common cliche, that take an amazing writer to do that, the most successful deconstructions tend to be those that had an underlining point behind, an easily but typically not truly considered by the reader. E.g Lord of flies where the deconstruction of the typical young's boys adventure story leads to horrifying results, or romance novels such as great expectations where the typical story of boys meet girl, and pauper to riches, leads to a circular development, the young man and the girl aren't shown happily ever after at the end and boy loses his riches. They both end up right back at where they started except not quite right back.

If he reallys wants to continue this deconstruction he should follow a more realistic with an easy identifiable message and ideally not one where it's MC characters don't really work hard, everyone already knows this, but why is it idealized that they do work hard, because the ability to put your effort into achieving something you want through your own hard work is admired by society. Why? As it is a way for humans who may only live once to die saying, I didn't waste this life, I achieved what I wanted on my own terms and I can be proud I lived the way I did, as regardless of the end result I know I truly tried and that's one regret I didn't have.

it doesn't have like that but a story can hit hardest when interwoven with a single consistent poignant theme. And I think Medaka box lacks that.