2012-04-23, 10:05 | Link #28561 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
|
Firstly, impressive to whomever got that twist by ep 2, all I can say is I noticed was that they had the same chin, and then made a joke about me being so white and thinking all Asian people look the same.
Secondly, Renall, I have to ask, why are you so angry at Ryu? I understand if from your point of view you thought him stupid and just brushed him off, but why so much anger? |
2012-04-23, 11:36 | Link #28562 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
Regarding Shkanon by ep2: It isn't hard. They're never seen together in ep1/2 and Kanon's body disappears. It was practically the first thing some people guessed, especially since some of them were familiar with Higurashi where a similar thing sorta happens. Certainly you couldn't perhaps guess that's what the whole thing was about, but it was possible to guess Shannon/Kanon as the killer(s) and guess they were one person, and as of ep2 no reds were contradicted by it in general.
__________________
|
|
2012-04-23, 11:49 | Link #28563 | ||
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
||
2012-04-23, 12:30 | Link #28565 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
There's a big difference between what you "think" you know and what you actually know.
Quote:
That's the point. It doesn't work as pat as you seem to think it does. It may not be an apocalyptic scenario in this particular case, but it erodes any value that anything else has and basically causes the story to collapse upon its own silly example of the 19th person. In effect, the red creates exactly that scenario that you're trying to suggest I'm advocating (which I'm not, you really need to stop doing that). It's just somehow "different" to people because it's a magical (but not "magical") bodysnatching fairy that has as its internal mechanism whatever is most convenient for the author at a given time. It's actually less plausible than a witch or 19th person, and equally fanciful. Does that not bother you? More than that, do you honestly believe that Ryukishi plotted out the exact manner in which all of that switching works in the narrative and forced himself to obey specific and comprehensible rules for who can do what and when? I tried to imagine such a ruleset after the fact, and what I came up with is still stupid and overly permissive to the point that I could get away with basically anything if I were him. I am all but certain that he just dreamed up the idea half-cocked, assumed he could do whatever he wanted as long as he could come up with some ways to twist red, and filled in (poorly) the blanks later with additional structure in Chiru to attempt to justify by recton. No human being behaves like this. No fictional set of personalities works so conveniently. No author dreams this up as a first-and-best concept. There is no way this was his plan all along. It's patently indefensible, even for someone with your intellect.
__________________
|
|
2012-04-23, 13:01 | Link #28566 | ||
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
Quote:
All of these corpses are guaranteed to be dead. But they're pretending because you can fake death.
__________________
|
||
2012-04-23, 14:28 | Link #28567 | ||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
|
Quote:
Though the particular scene wanted to hint towards the bomb, I think 'Beatrice's heart is the bomb' is a way too literal translation. Quote:
__________________
|
||
2012-04-23, 16:38 | Link #28568 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
|
Quote:
So the options are two: - his point of view was altered by sleep/alchool and we're basically called to figure out even though he was the detective and was supposed to have a reliable point of view... well, he tossed it out of the window - Battler was already dead and had moved on the meta plane as it happened in Ep 4 when, after midnight, he sees Beatrice and engages with her a meta battle. However Genji called Battler at 11:30 so either Genji took a long turn to carry him to see Kinzo and Beato so as to waste 30 minutes or Battler should have reached that room before the bomb exploded. Though it's real the text said Battler began to drink at 11:30 so... hum... Genji might have reached him at 11:55 so they'll never reached Kinzo's room. However the banquet chapter says that at 11:59PM Battler was alive and speaking with Beato while Kinzo was present so, unless the bomb exploded earlier, Battler shouldn't have been killed by the bomb. - Battler had gave up on fighting surrendering and de-fact ending the game with his loss though even we're lead to assume that scene happened on the gameboard it's actually not fantasy but purely Meta and the one getting explanations is MetaBattler (though he likely believes to be pieceBattler...)... which would fit with how MetaBattler's scenes afterward seem to fit with the ones of this Battler. Quote:
Without it the police could have done more accurate investigations and possibly guess the culprit... if there was one or more. Or people could have survived. The bomb generated the catbox that allows Beato to use her endless magic to spin tons of tales. Though this isn't a mystery for the Witch hunters who know the island went Kaboom it's a mystery for us (I wonder if the same could be said for Battler as he could have received that particular info from Ange's memories and maybe for him the question had a completely different meaning...) |
||
2012-04-23, 16:44 | Link #28569 | ||||
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
|
Quote:
Interesting enough during that moment, "mother" also mentioned that people will not see Beatrice. It makes me wonder if Shannon/Kanon were only considered to be people that could die because everyone acknowledged them as such. Quote:
To be honest, I do doubt that Ryukishi is really that knowledgeable about physiology. About the red, I think that to lies in the definition of dead. In the end what we consider dead is when the person bodies function stop or mind ceases to exist. Death is when life ends. Unless you want to argue that separate identities count as living, I do think you would have a hard time accepting that they can die. although if you build wholes lives, relationships etc around these identities I could see why you would consider them to equal to other lives. Quote:
To be honest, if you think about the insane amount of risks that "Beatrice" takes in each game: -committing murders is such complicated manner -the murders will cease if someone solves the epitaph -someone could kill Beatrice in revenge -the bomb that will kill everyone assuming that she does not turn it off It leads to two conclusions. Either Beatrice wanted a miracle or just to die, which both is supported in the meta games. She wanted Battler to understand her heart and crush it. Quote:
Honestly that makes more sense if anything if you think that he is not exactly used to drinking(Kinzo's drinks are pretty strong) and he was in a state where he gave up on trying to be careful. I could easily see him falling asleep pretty quickly. |
||||
2012-04-23, 16:57 | Link #28570 |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
|
I always thought he "died by alcohol poisoning"
I mean if i remember right the drinks were over 50% vol. And didn't he empty a whole bottle or something like that? Detective dying before time runs out is possible, as we see in EP3, and in EP5 or EP6 (not sure which) Erika states that Knox does not rule out the detective being killed. |
2012-04-23, 18:03 | Link #28571 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
|
Quote:
As for the whole DID misinterpretation. Basically, if you have no knowledge of psychiatry and ignore the fact that the condition as given does not exist (I'm looking at you Black Swan) you can probably more easily figure it out. Novels and movies often use mental conditions that don't exist, which would be cheating if we weren't given pretty good evidence within the story being told that it does. Knox's rule does allow for complex devices hinted at. So if we work from the idea her condition does exist, we can then see A: Ryu spent a chunk of game 6 justifying rather accurately why he calls them different people (the whole memories argument) and it doesn't actually clash with the medical definition of dead. Your heart is still beating (albeit in Shannon's body) but your brain can be dead. And yes Kanon may have appeared in Ep 3's end, but who knows how true that even was. All we really know is Jessica was lead to the parlour. |
|
2012-04-23, 20:00 | Link #28572 | |
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
And MPD as Shkanon experiences it is almost literally magic since she can basically mind-control other people (who happen to be in her heaD) at will.
__________________
|
|
2012-04-24, 08:56 | Link #28575 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
|
Quote:
2. I continue to not understand the need to try and use medical MPD / DID or whatever. I mean, "multiple personalities" is a simple way to phrase things, but the explanation the story itself repeatedly, repeatedly offered - that one can express very different parts of themselves in different contexts - seems way easier to work with. I mean, in your Black Swan example, I wouldn't say an alternate personality was growing, just a part of the person that had been severely repressed and was now being being indulged. 3. About Kanon in EP3, it's a small point, but it's interesting that unlike Shannon, he wasn't presented as being not-dead in the Fantasy - Jessica was talking to his ghost or whatever. Her blindness + "No, no touchies!" was an extremely convenient narrative contrivance. Quote:
Quote:
Are we arguing whether or not the mystery was at all solvable? Or whether Shkanon was a worthwhile trick to hinge said solva-bility on? Or whether Ryukishi reserves the right to be misleading and vague by stating afterwards "Well, I guess it might not make sense to everybody"? On a completely unrelated note, I've been reading alot of blogs by peeps who consider themselves non-binary, in some way, regarding their gender. Proper terms and technicalities aside, I think the general way we seem to generally consider Yasu's gender/sex may be a bit skewed. Well, basically I'm thinking that falling off the cliff didn't cause ANY real physical damage to her body at all, and Genji being able to bullkshit 3 years off of her age is a combination of both the person being naturally small and "don't think about it too hard, like you don't think about all the people that had to have been physically involved in building Kuwadorian yet never spoke to the public about it." |
|||
2012-04-24, 12:59 | Link #28576 | |
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2012-04-24, 15:18 | Link #28577 | ||
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
|
Slight off topic on speculation but about what age are Bernkastel/Lamdadelta/Erika suppose to look like? I have seen depiction of Bernkastels that have her to a young teen to adult. The same with Lamdadelta.
As well that if Bernkastel is Hachijo's cat then what does Lamdadelta represent? On a meta level of the story, I always felt that the two witches were just metaphor for Beatrice's deadend fate. More so that the witch of miracles was on the human side. Quote:
Quote:
About the baby not having any wounds. Is even possible? I always had the image of the baby having a huge gash and battered head. Basically looking like it died. I always wondered if Yasu suffered from brain damage, that Yasuda had trouble formulating memories. It would explain a few things such as: Not noticing that he/she is three older then his/her given age You can get away with adults not noticing that via Genji but why not Yasuda? Image that you are five years and you are told that you really are two years old. Yasuda not finding that strange could be explained that Yasuda has trouble remembering the past properly. Remembering Shannon in the third person and the sudden shift into Shannon's life Could be explained if Yasuda misremembering things. That Yasuda remembers the events in the third person but not that they happened to Yasuda. Basically that certain events that Yasuda remembers them as "things that happened to someone else". In fact that all traces of Yasuda is gone when Shannon becomes the main character of the witch's tale. About the Kuwadorian, how much of a secret was it? People in Ange's future seem to know. If anything I doubt many people would care who helped build it, just an eccentric rich man building another mansion on his private island. Even if someone did investigate into the matter, I doubt that many people would reach the conclusion that he raised his daughter in the Kuwadorian who was also his mistress. |
||
2012-04-24, 15:27 | Link #28578 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
I would have to think their appearance would be no older than twelve. Beatrice would be in the 19-22 range (we know exactly how old she's supposed to be, and we can kinda guess the age of the person from whom Meta-Beatrice takes her appearance). Battler is 18, Ange is 18. Strangely, Erika is also around 18, at least if we take the claim that she's "about [Jessica's] age" literally. However she doesn't look 18 in the slightest, closer to 16 to me. She could just be a bit short for her age, but I forget how tall she is compared to other characters in OMK, which while not official is about as close as you'd get to an accurate height comparison.
__________________
|
|
2012-04-24, 15:51 | Link #28579 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: United Kingdom.
|
Quote:
I would still classify that as cheating, though. The optimist inside me is saying that there are details about the red text that we weren't actually told and are supposed to figure out, and that these apparent lies are supposed to draw our attention to this. Or, at least, it's more fun for me to think of it that way, even if that may ultimately be fruitless. |
|
2012-04-24, 16:21 | Link #28580 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
|
Spoiler for reply to Golden Dust:
Quote:
Just kinda assume she's 14/15 to max out all possible anime-protagonist-tropes. |
|
|
|