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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 07 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 58 | 41.13% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 47 | 33.33% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 23 | 16.31% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 9 | 6.38% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 3 | 2.13% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 1 | 0.71% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 0 | 0% | |
Voters: 141. You may not vote on this poll |
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2011-02-22, 19:31 | Link #681 | |||||
Banned
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One random thought I had... witches are punishment. Much like that one familiar that bounces you one time for each lie? That's an... odd way to prey upon humanity. If someone has never lied, then they are safe.
So some support for the "Kyube is evil" theory would be that he is interfering in the natural punishment of humans. On the flip side, it's kinda like a religious thing. "I will punish humanity with these witches, but give them one hope. I will send a creature to earth, and if young girls will take up the mantle to fight, then they can help cleanse mankind of it's sins. But it must be their choice alone; they must bear the hardships." Quote:
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We know what happened, but there are plenty of worse alternatives that we can imagine, so you can't say this was the worst thing to happen to them. |
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2011-02-22, 19:41 | Link #682 | ||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Each circumstance of the MG when they contracted is already posted in details by several others and the arguments back and forth already made. In each case, an illusion of choice was offered but whether it is through withholding information (all, but Mami specifically), taking advantage of emotional vulnerability (Kyoko, Sayaka), creating circumstances that forces a choice to be made despite being reluctant (Madoka), the girls are being manipulated to contract with QB, except in Madoka's case Homura intervened. Quote:
And I am not blaming everything on QB, well not yet anyways unless it turns out the whole system was just created to farm grief seed as several people have speculated. I am just saying he needs to be accountable for his actions. Those actions are essentially destroying lives of many young girls. Quote:
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2011-02-22, 19:46 | Link #683 | |||
believe...
Join Date: Aug 2010
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2011-02-22, 19:49 | Link #684 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Folsom, CA, USA
Age: 37
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Assuming these witches would cause greater and greater damage left alone. Assuming young girls were the only ones who could receive this magic and ability to see to combat them. What would you propose would be the best course of action? I guess, is the means Kyubey contracts your problem, or the system itself? Mami did feel it was the "optimal" choice, she said herself that "living like this is way better than having died back then" |
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2011-02-22, 19:54 | Link #685 | |
believe...
Join Date: Aug 2010
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the first one i would like implemented is QB recruiting all and not just those that need a wish. who knows, some might decide to be one for a "cake". another is to give out all the information straight up. MG's life hangs in the balance & they are dying without even knowing the whole thing. as i said earlier, destroying one life to save many others is not justified (everyone may not agree but thats my opinion) that makes it better (or way better) not optimal. in my opinion, optimal would be for her to have the old life back. she paid a price (however insignificant doesnt matter so long as it isnt free) for the current life so its not optimal by default
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2011-02-22, 20:01 | Link #687 | ||||
Banned
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And really, I'm beginning to think this whole death thing is overrated. We've seen MG's kill tons of witches and familiars, and only one MG death. So while it may seem risky, it doesn't seem higher than some other activities people might participate in. Quote:
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2011-02-22, 20:07 | Link #688 | ||||
believe...
Join Date: Aug 2010
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2011-02-22, 20:10 | Link #689 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Folsom, CA, USA
Age: 37
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Well I suppose your right there, but I guess my point was she didn't feel cheated or regret it (said so herself). More or less, she was "happy"(lack of better word) with the opportunity she was given. edit: I would say Kyoko looks more or less "content" with her current life, she certainly doesn't seem depressed anymore (Im sure she was after that deal with her family) or hateful of being trapped in the system. |
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2011-02-22, 20:27 | Link #690 | ||||
Banned
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And all of them enjoy doing it, and some of them die. Hell, Steve Irwin enjoyed playing around with dangerous animals, and it eventually killed him. Chance of death is not the most important determinant for a life decision, because we humans have been making much more dangerous ones for thousands of years. Ever since Grog bet his buddy Ugg that he could wrestle a saber-toothed tiger barehanded, heh. Quote:
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But let me spin a yarn about a hypothetical that might match what you're trying to get across. In WW2, the British had cracked the German's secret code, and intercepted a message that the Germans planned to bomb a certain British town. Churchill had a problem; if they warned the town and evacuated them, the Germans would know their code had been broken. If they said nothing, they could use this advantage at a major point in the invasion, but it would mean sacrificing the town and everyone in it. What would you do? Churchill ordered that no one be told, thus sacrificing the town. However, this story isn't exactly true, more of an urban legend, but it serves to illustrate the point. It's a call I would make though, sacrificing a town for a chance at winning the war. Hopefully, that might address your question. If it does not, feel free to come up with another one. Oh, and would be appreciated if you would answer mine (or this one). |
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2011-02-22, 20:36 | Link #691 | |||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: California
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Took a while, since I went quote diving to make some points.
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People who want to be alone, want to be alone? Wow, I would have never guess that. It must hold the same fo- oh wait, nevermind. Mami-san wanted friends, she wasn't a lone wolf who abstained companionship. Mami-san was bothered deeply that she had all her free time dedicated to witch hunting. And yes, there are people in the world that are exactly what you described, but I state that Mami does not fall into any of those categories. Quote:
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No, the main discussion spiraled out is because that you claimed that Mami was happy with her life because she was saved. But she wasn't happy her current life being a magical girl either. Then you try to blur the distinction between being glad she was saved as the same as being happy as the same thing with this: Quote:
And again my scene where Mami confesses happens at the very moments before she died, the scene that you point to doesn't hold the same weight to what she says at the beginning of the episode. She didn't regret choosing to live, but she did regret in becoming a MG, and at that time she didn't know she would be contracted into being a MG at the time. She was choosing to be less miserable, not less happy. 4:34 of Episode 3 Mami: Dieing back there would have been worse than living like this. Quote:
16:33 of Episode 3 Mami: There is nothing good about being a Magical Puella And no the reason why she didn't become like Homura, was because she wanted friends. Friends she could relate to and friends who can share the burden with her. Quote:
16:04 Episode 3 *Mami let goes of Madoka's hand after being praised* 16:05 Mami: It won't be easy 16:07: Mami:You'll get hurt, won't have time for dates or friends 16:13 *more Madoka aspiring to be like Mami* 16:18 *Mami stops walking* 16:19 Mami: I'm not someone to dream about. 16:24 Mami: I'm just being cool by pushing myself too hard. 16:26 Mami: Even if I'm having a hard time, or having a hard time, I can't talk to anyone. All I can do is cry by myself. 16:33 Mami:THERE IS NOTHING GOOD ABOUT BEING A PUELLA MAGI She says some pretty darn depressing stuff who someone who isn't in despair. So in conclusion make the following statements: 1) Mami was glad she was saved 2) Mami is "miserable" with her life as a MG. 3) Mami's life in general, prior to meeting Madoka or Sayaka has been a miserable life. |
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2011-02-22, 20:38 | Link #692 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Under those assumptions, the problem I have is QB's methods, and not the system. However, those are not my assumptions and I question both the system and QB's methods.
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2011-02-22, 20:54 | Link #693 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
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About the whole happiness thing, it is too broad to use the word happy/ unhappy. Let's put in some numbers.
+100 means living in utopia, 0 means neutral, -100 means living in hell When do you think people would choose suicide over a miserable life? Everyone is different but I assume it is somewhere between -50 to -80? For mami, I believe she is around -20, Kyoko +20, Homura - too little information, Sayaka - -50 (She is going "crazy") Let's put in what you think where they are and then the discussion would be more constructive
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2011-02-22, 21:01 | Link #694 | |||||||
Banned
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Here's the important part thought: If she really felt the life was so bad, she wouldn't be trying to pull Madoka and Sayaka into it. That's what Homura is doing, which is a clear contrast. Mami also didn't state that if given the choice (as in, not currently dying so have time to think about it), that she wouldn't become an MG. With Homura as a contrast, you can see a clear difference in outlook and ideals. The fact that Mami is not Homura, tells me she is much more okay with her situation. Quote:
Hell, I have a job that leaves me tired each day, and it would be nice not to have to work so I'd have more time to go out with friends, or make new friends, or go out on dates... but I'm not upset at my life, either, since I make good money. I suspect many people here are similar in that regard. Quote:
Madoka and Sayaka nod firmly. General: "Right." *coughs* "Well, I'll start a file on that, but sadly we don't have the funds to create something like that right now. But I'm sure you and your friend and your invisible magical creature can handle this. I have faith in you!" |
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2011-02-22, 21:15 | Link #695 | |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
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So when characters are acting against your conceived notion of them, they are being deceitful. |
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2011-02-23, 01:44 | Link #696 | |
Crossdressing Menmatic
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Where you live... the question is, do you see me?
Age: 30
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He knows tragic events will happen merely if he continues to campaign Madoka to be a magical girl. Such is the world Kyubey introduces Madoka to... Puella Magi fighting to the brink with evil witches. In addition, he may be operating under a set of rules that restrict him from doing anything to persuade Madoka directly. Suppose Kyubey could only approach people, offer them the contract, and explain that offer - nothing more. The only way he can do anything to persuade Madoka is to hang around and show her the terror of witches as part of his "explanation." Or, maybe he can recruit others that would help persuade Madoka. Such as Sayaka. Too sleepy to continue. I hope other people will try and rationalize their gut feeling that Kyubey is evil. Last edited by Deconstructor; 2011-02-23 at 02:27. Reason: Adding reason from other thread. |
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2011-02-23, 02:10 | Link #697 | |||||
Me at work
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Right after episode 7 came out and hearing Kyoko talk bout the need for balance between hope and despair I started thinking QB was just there to make sure that balance is kept,grief seeds weren't what he was interested in. Problem I started having with this is when I watched episode 7 again and I heard Homura mention that he's making miracles happen,and selling them.Miracles pretty much go against any kind of balance there is so it looks like things are more complicated than that. Which leads to me to doing all kinds of different speculating that I won't post here,I guess that while QB doing all this to get grief seeds is definatly one possibility,it seems just too "easy" and I don't get much fun speculating that way so I look for alternatives,but again I'd have no problem with the show going that route. edit: Quote:
I remember what Kaijo said,what I'm interested in is your points.
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Last edited by totoum; 2011-02-23 at 02:45. |
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2011-02-23, 04:36 | Link #698 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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Edit: lol, okay this top part was basically self-advertising. I'll leave it here though. I finished the speculation I mentioned before and have posted in the thread appropriate for it. In terms of some ideas/assumptions about Kyubey which emerged from that thinking which will inform any further posts I make discussing him, here are two hooks for you guys to go check out my theory:
- What if Kyubey is the cause/origin of WalpurgisNacht due to all the darkness/Grief Seeds he is accumulating? - What if Kyubey's interest in Madoka is because she is the only Puella Magi candidate who has the potential to contain all that negative energy? Quote:
What is exactly the cause of Sayaka's suffering right now? Here are two options for you: - the fact that she has been made into a shiny rock/soulless zombie, OR - the fact that she knows about it? With regards to Kyubey’s methods, the first is something unchangeable (an inherent part of the ‘becoming a mahou shoujo’ process) whereas the second isn’t. In terms of how this knowledge actually affects Mahou Shoujo’s survivability, it is actually completely a benefit, so we cannot say that Kyubey not telling them has made the job more dangerous. However, let us put this further question forward: if, from this point forward, Kyubey were to notify all prospective Puella Magis that the transformation process involves having their soul be extracted, how exactly would this impact the lives of a general Puella Magi? - Well, first, rather than preventing anything, future girls who decide to become Puella Magi anyway might develop a mental block limiting their own happiness; - and two, people who already are magical girls and are now forced to discover this have the potential to become as miserable as Sayaka (though that's not likely, but maybe like Kyouko they'll probably have at least a (mostly pointless) initial shock over it). Is there in fact any benefit to changing Kyubey’s “method” of withholding this information? Of course, there is the possibility that Kyubey is also withholding other information, the lack of knowledge of which perhaps does in fact impact Magical Girls’ potential happiness or survivability negatively. However, as the only payment promised is a ‘wish’ which should be considered carefully, and as Mahou Shoujos are indeed directly told that the fighting can be very dangerous, I do not in fact see any further warnings which would not already be covered in these categories already. The general and most important information for most magical girls is certainly already offered before a contract already. Unless, of course, the 'information' you're imagining are ideas to the effect that the system is in really working against them (i.e. that their wishes will deliberately be twisted poorly, that they could turn into witches, etc. etc.), but that would fundamentally change the premise here and presently lies in the realm of speculation. I think no advantage or explanation yet has been given for why Kyubey not talking about the Soul Gem is a bad thing. Most people are instead confusing that with the fact that the Soul Gem is taken out at all, which many gut instincts/reactions seem to scream out to be terrifying or evil. However, at least in the show thus far, both Kyubey and Homura have explained this to be simply an inevitable/natural part of wish granting and becoming a mahou shoujo. From an objective perspective, you could basically say that moving the soul into a Soul Gem doesn't really affect anything (or is even a good thing). From a personal perspective, many people might in fact be better off or prefer it if they didn't know in the first place. So unless it is true that Soul Gems darkening will make you a witch and send you to an eternal hell in Kyubey's bowels (or other such negative effects), then in the end there will not have been very much wrong at all with Kyubey keeping this fact a secret. Last edited by Sol Falling; 2011-02-23 at 05:01. |
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2011-02-23, 05:53 | Link #699 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
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REALLY NOW! and you know this for a FACT? really you make it sound that the wish was the best thing that could have happened to kyoko and her family. wow then may i ask you this. Are you poor? have you ever been poor? have you ever been hungry? have you ever been in a situation where you cant think on anything else but were to get the next meal? well I HAVE, I experience it first hand. in fact a lot of people i know is in that situation. you think my mom is on the way to butchering my bro & sisters? you think my friends are??? WOW. you think what happened to kyoko's family is better than what it was before? DOUBLE WOW the only reason i'm able to do this, watch anime and use the internet is because of my hardworking mom and my family. I myself have been working and earning since early teen years while studying. And that's exactly it, family is the most important thing for a lot of us. we can go hungry at times that doesn't mean we just give up and suddenly START KILLING OURSELVES! in fact we go on because our family is there. and we still have our REASON FOR LIVING, hard as it may be. even if we are in a poor community, in a poor city in a third world country. we can still be KIND, LOVING & HAPPY! And since you're so into statistics & studies then why don't you look up the happiness index statistics for that matter. you'll be surprised how some third world countries are so much more happier than those in rich countries. And what about kyoko's father & family for that matter. Again he is much more the victim than kyoko is. Everything was FORCED onto him, he never got any say in the matter. he never got any contract nor a wish. So where is the justice, the balance? And QB and his wish "interpretation" or whatever you call it just invalidated his whole life existence, the meaning of his life. no wonder he cracked up. He became a pastor why? to be rich ? famous? to always have food?NO, (because definitely there are better ways than this,if he really wanted that) he wanted to be heard and help people to change people's life for the better (or at least he thought), what he got was a bunch of automatons brainwashed to attend his service. In fact kyoko didn't even have to tell him about the wish. it could have happened like this : on a certain service: Pastor made a slip and said a bad word during sermon > congregation just kept on smiling and listening. Pastor apologized but thought its kinda strange, but didn't mind it. congregation continue attending. next service : he made a controversial sermon, one he knew is not so popular > congregation applauded without a single objection or even a single question. Pastor now has this funny feeling. congregation keeps on attending next service : Pastor decided to test, he mentioned something totally against the teaching of their church but put it in joke form ( like it's okay to rape etc.) > congregation applauded wholeheartedly and agreed. they didn't even think it's a joke. congregation keeps on attending. Pastor now starting to loose his mind ( what the hell is happening?) next service : Pastor just babbled nonsense , read a couple of comic books during sermon > congregation kept on applauding his "wisdom" : congregation keeps on attending . THE WISH PRACTICALLY GUARANTEES IT REGARDLESS OF WHATEVER IS DONE DURING SERVICE. last service : pastor already out of his mind , hurled expletives F*CK ALL OF YOU@(*$#)*^!)#)#%*)%@*)# t, )(#&*)^*(%$)*%@)*%*$#) and so on and so forth. > congregation kept on smiling , applauding and THANKING HIM > it is clear to the pastor they will still attend next service. Pastor broke. he would never conduct a service again. it's useless. some time after, seeing whats happening, kyoko's confesses to her father what's really happening. this is the last straw. (why would my daughter do such a thing , why would she destroy me?) he went on to kill everyone in the family. but see even if kyoko never opened her mouth. the pastor is already broken. sorry for being emotional, but yeah that hits to the bone we don't need no well to do guy from well to do country telling us we're fucked up and miserable because we're poor, and to hell with all their psychological "studies" |
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2011-02-23, 09:12 | Link #700 | ||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
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He'll have no clue to protect the right eye. IT is pretty obvious MG would fight very differently if they knew the soul gem is their sole weakness. Quote:
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There is also the simple fact that a MG that has her body being destroyed won't be able to heal without the help of kyuubey when if they knew about it they could have contigencies and so on. Basically, the only reason for kyuubey to withold the truth (as we have seen kyuubey doesn't care if the MG is happy at all) is because a°) he can't be bothered to do the usual ranting about MG being stupid or b°) because soul gems being what they are might clue the MG in about other, darker stuff. |
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