2012-09-21, 21:58 | Link #30721 |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
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So basically, Yasu is a character X that we don't know anything about. She's the unknown basis for the other personalities. Then Beatrice in prime is Yasu taking the role of 'heir'. Shanon is Yasu taking the role of 'ideal maid'. Then Kanon is Shanon taking the role of a snarky aloof guy that she acts as when helping Jessica to fool her classmates (and the protective little brother Yasu talks to any other time).
Then, by expanding the fact that Yasu thinks that acting as someone makes a new person, Beatrice is furniture to be heir, Shanon furniture to be maid, and Kanon furniture to be a suportive/agressive guy. That's what AuraTwilight says? I can't find a fault in that.
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2012-09-21, 22:46 | Link #30722 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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- Battler has amnesia, and forgets whatever new life he had begun with Yasu/Shannon (so maybe did come back for her or whatever) - When being reminded of Battler, he goes into painful attacks of something - He somehow seems ok with reading the forgery about the incident (prepared according to Beatrice "on a whim" (so maybe written beforehand or for some other reason)) - Meta-Beatrice is playing a game to get Battler to remember he made a promise, and for it she must constantly put him through the paces or seeing his family murdered in different ways (writing forgeries with him, enjoying the game but not realising until later that he actually feels real pain about it) I am phrasing this badly, but basically, what if the white horse promise is just a representation of what Battler actually forgot, the fact they were going to start anew together. It is a little bit 'the vow' or whatever that movie is. Battler never sinned against Beatrice (Ikuko) but forget the relationship they had that began it all. It makes Ikuko the culprit, because she is killing them over and over again just for her "ceremony". It doesn't go any way to explaining prime though (in which something clearly happened) and still has Yasu as a selfish enough person, but it fits with the story nicely. As for what did happen on Prime, there was clearly an explosion incident, and Yasu probably had some part in it. But when you are playing with explosives, you don't need to actively kill every person individually, it just needs to happen. I only really can't decide why Yasu wouldn't just be upfront about it, though Battler did ask that himself. |
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2012-09-22, 00:25 | Link #30723 | |||||
The True Culprit
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"Beatrice you love Battler now instead of Shannon kthx." Quote:
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2012-09-22, 01:05 | Link #30724 | ||||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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We both agree that "this person" didn't kill anyone in prime. By implying that Beatrice is the "psycho killer" mask of Yasu you are conveniently forgetting all those scenes where Beatrice is substantially presented as a good person. In other words the "psycho killer" is as much a mask for Beatrice than it is for Yasu. It cannot be attributed to either's nature. This is actually a good point. It is evident that Beatrice can wear masks, that she can pretend to be what she isn't, as she is clearly shown to be now a cruel monster and then a good person. If she was a mask herself she couldn't do that. She can wear masks because she is a real person. Quote:
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You want to convince me that Yasu and Beatrice are distinct? Then show me conclusive evidence that they existed at the same time.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2012-09-22 at 01:27. |
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2012-09-22, 01:44 | Link #30725 | ||
Human
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
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She linked the personalities to the actions she did. Like 'I pushed that maid downstairs. But that wasn't because I (as Shanon) didn't like her, it's cuz Beatrice totally possesed me.' or 'I stole the keys, but Gaap posessed me so it really wasn't me, it was Gaap.' She could condition herself to show certain emotions in the daily basis -"summoning furniture", like the "counting to ten and breathing steadly" done by normal people-, but when pushed she went sour or disrespectful and some of the furniture came to take the blame. Basically, I can say that I have a furniture that's really troll and bitchy named Mera. So everytime I'm feeling bitchy it's because I'm being possesed--Mera came to play. When I'm calm you can call me Patchy, who is a cool big sister that does everything right (because she's always here when I'm calm and less prone to spill the tea on the lady's face). So she decided that everytime she thought of Battler, it was because Beatrice was possesing her. Before, that heartache was all Shanon's, but then she blamed Beatrice's random apparitions for it.
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2012-09-22, 05:25 | Link #30726 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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What you are basically saying, I think, is that the only "true" mask of Yasu is Beatrice. But then why should we give a shit how Shannon and Kanon feel? How are they even relevant to anything? Why does Kanon even exist at all? |
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2012-09-22, 17:36 | Link #30727 | |||||||
The True Culprit
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...Which also goes for Beatrice, because she has to ignore certain memories of Yasu in order to be a thousand year witch. She also had to adopt some of Shannon's memories as her own due to taking her love for Battler, so she's not even a perfect 1:1 Yasu correlation. Quote:
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Shannon and Kanon also wear masks, by the way. So why are you insisting Beatrice is more real or a 1:1 correlation to Yasu when Shannon and Kanon share most of Beatrice's qualifications of being Yasu that you seem to be using? Quote:
The only answer is that Shannon's thoughts and emotions are just as real as Beatrice's, which you are insisting are just as real, infact synonymous with, Yasu's. You can't have it both ways. If Beatrice is Yasu instead of being a role she plays, they ALL are. Quote:
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2012-09-23, 06:21 | Link #30729 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Also, Kumasawa's death scene is...really, really horrible to read. It is pretty hard to sympathise with Piece-Yasu in cases like this... |
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2012-09-23, 07:40 | Link #30730 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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The only people who she seems to be referring to in this case are Gohda and Kumasawa, who probably never saw the corpses in Kinzo's room with their own eyes. She does it "case by case". It's easier if they don't know there's actual murder, but that doesn't mean it's impossible if they do know... ...well personally I think it's too much to expect full, knowing cooperation in murder just by the bomb threat... especially from several different people. But, in this world written by Beatrice it seems to work every time just fine. Quote:
One thing I found really strange was Beatrice saying that Kumasawa's face-up pose was good, originally, and then asking her to go face-down later. It'd make more sense to me if she just said the face-up pose was no good the whole time, instead of appearing to randomly completely change her mind. It almost feels like there are two different Piece-Beatrices, or like the part with her killing Kumasawa was added into the scene later. Could just be me not wanting to believe she really did it, though. |
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2012-09-23, 11:14 | Link #30731 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Yes, remember that Kratsuhi was only threatened with the bomb because they were especially prideful. The implication was that the other adults would probably participate for just the money, if they were lead to believe the whole thing was fake, anyway.
Also, this bit : What a simple and cheap mystery. Probably, for those people who love to read the mystery novels that I have boundless respect for, they'll see right through it with a big laugh. To witness demons, even with a brazen display of fantasy as "proof", is to mystery the height of satire; it will no doubt get laughs. I dunno why, but it feels like my respect for the whole series just got a boost. Anyway, what I find most interesting about the gameboard presented so far is 1. It only involves 10 people dying, since the 2nd Twilight is being interpreted differently 2. It's probably the most involvement Krauss has ever had 3. No seriously, did she say that there was going to be a giant exploded hole in Kinzo's study?? |
2012-09-23, 14:34 | Link #30733 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Due to Higurashi's paranoia syndrome connected to aliens through all the anime I was expecting Umineko's solution to be something weird as well and not mystery like as well. LOL, I wasn't enoying it much though. If I've to be honest I began enjoying it only when a friend introduced me to the visual novel and told me that Umineko could be handled like a mystery. Quote:
Come on, Yasu's a kind girl that wouldn't be capable of gruesome murder and that is supposed to feel affection for those people and she just told you they're playing dead, it's just make up and hey, she's rich enough to pay the staff of a holliwood movie to come here and cover you in make up, why should you doubt her? Sure, that make up seems a bit too realistic and they're really cool at being perfectly still without even breathing but hey, they're gonna be paid, aren't they? Personally I find easier for someone who believes it's all a game to play along that for someone who thinks it's a real murder and yet does nothing to stop it even if yes, the whole 'I didn't notice they were really dead' seems a bit forced and a trick that wouldn't work so well in real life with such murderour deaths. What annoys me is that in a previous part Kumasawa defined herself as someone who was also blackmailed and cared for her life in front of Krauss and Natsuhi so she should know they were threatened to take part to that prank and yet, she's not worried at all? I mean, I'm not sure about Japanese laws but I guess over there blackmail should be a crime as well and if they needed to be blackmailed and threatened to take part to a prank they probably won't just laugh the thing off once the joke is finished. They could sue Yasu to the police who can make investigations and find out that Kumasawa had been paid to be an accomplice with money Yasu was illegally owning. Really, I would think twice before taking part to such a thing. In a fashion motives are truly Umineko's weak point. Not only Yasu's motive for doing all this but also the others' motives for playing along in something like this. It'll be different if Kumasawa were to think Krauss and Natsuhi were also playing a prank and having fun at it but if she know they're blackmailed/threatened into it... well, matters change. The same for Krauss and Natsuhi that accomplish with Yasu's demands in an apparent rather passive and calm way. I won't go into Genji who's really too robot-like. A guy that hid Yasu from his master when he believed this could not be the best for her is now passively letting her murder lot of people when he should hold some affection for some of them. After all he saw Kinzo's children grow and the same can be said for the innocent grandchildren. Doesn't he feel some pity for them? Not mentioning the whole plan includes Yasu's death as well. All he has to do to stop it is turn off the bomb and restrain Yasu. Why isn't he doing it? Quote:
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Then, while Yasu's out let's say for groceries and while wearing a disguise, Battler turns on the tv and hear what had happened in Rokkenjima. In shock he wanders out of the house until he finds himself involved in a car incident. Meanwhile Yasu finds out as well and come home just in time to find Battler injured and in a confusional state. She figures the island was blew up by the bomb and that if they were to admit who they are they would look suspicious as they have illegal money and they just left the island before it exploded and so she decides to hide Battler who meanwhile had lost his memory and herself, keeping up her fake persona identity. Yet she can't deal with Battler having forgot about her again ence the pushing on him to remember with her novel in which she involves him as well and her sense of guilt toward Ange. Quote:
Firt Yasu's immaginary friends were a way to deal with her loneliness. Shannon was there to place the role of the friend and older sister (family) she didn't have, supporting her. Sure, Shannon was a bit too biased toward Yasu but considering at first Yasu didn't seem to realize Kumasawa looked at her like she would with a grandaughter, probably she needed someone fully on her side who would believe she was special and would become better than anyone else. That's true Gap got blamed for the things Yasu were to lose but I think Yasu also got pranked by the other girls so probably it wasn't always Yasu's fault. However it was likely too sad to think the other girls would prank her in such way so Gap took responsibility for Yasu's failures as well as for the pranks. However when Yasu believed the gap between her and Shannon was shortening she was forced to face the fact she still couldn't get friendship and respect by the other girls. She tried being good, likely she tried hard but it didn't work. Pranking the girls though was something Shannon would never do and Yasu back then didn't want to become something different from Shannon and yet... temptation was too strong. It seems in Japanese myths there's some sort of legend about people being caught by 'a passing demon' that pushes them to act out of character all of sudden and then... leaves them. Yasu might have felt something someting like that, something she wanted to do and yet rejected, a perfect fight between Id and Superego. That's likely why the blame goes to Gap, because there's a 'fracture' in her between what she wanted to do and what she should do. It's not her acting and yet it's her. So in her embellishment of the story Yasu places the role on Gap but, at the end of the prank she's forced to face this 'dissonance' inside herself. She has to become Shannon but now she realized being Beatrice might be more fulfilling. Yet she has to become Shannon. In a fashion, with the story of leaving Shannon, it's possible she tried to represent how she tried to cage and keep far from her those wishes, indulging in them only rarely. It's as if she tried to hide/to cut away from her her childish/fantasy-prone side sort of like telling herself 'grow up, don't act like this anymore' and all the times she acts like this again are the times she falls into temptation again. She sort of does the same thing all over again with her love for Battler, when she tries to erase it by passing it to Beatrice and then forgetting she had done it. I think 'Beatrice' is the name she gives to all the sides of herself she wants to erase because they get in the way of how her superego, Shannon, has to be. 'Kanon' is instead the name given to the bitterness and lack of hope growing inside her. So there's no Beatrice or Kanon. There's just Shannon/Yasu trying to deny some parts of her that act or want to act in a way she deems not proper and feeling increasingly bitter but unable to cope with it and things could go on pretty normal until she decides to act them out as if they were separate people. When she started playing Kanon's role (I assume she did it not when 'Kanon' had birth in her mind but later, when she discovered she was the head and could tell Genji to orchestrate the whole thing so that no one will notice Kanon is her) giving herself a second identity that interacted with people and could act in a certain way all the time I think she really did herself more harm than good. Even if before it was all symbolic she likely was already having self identity problems as she was denying part of herself. Add to this she discovered she was Kinzo's daughter/grandaughter with problems on her sexual organs and now she finds herself pursued by Jessica in her Kanon-role that probably allow her to express feelings she previously had to keep bottled up and yet be accepted anyway by Jessica and you can see how things are worsening leading her into further confusion about how she should be, how she should act, who she should be. And then Battler comes back and I think a side of her blamed him as the source of all her troubles (if he'd come back sooner she wouldn't have sunk that deeper and she might not have discovered some things about herself) while another likely just wanted Battler to act as a prince and save her (she probably felt around Battler back in the past she acted more like herself and hoped he might have been able to accept her and take her away from that situation sparing her from deciding if to be Shannon or Kanon) but what if Battler has really forgotten her or had just made a joke back then? Not only he wouldn't save her NOW but he never planned to save her EARLIER. She'd been a drama queen in wailing over Battler's lack of return and fussing over it and the mess she got herself in would be solely her own responsibility. So let's try and make Battler remember and then let's see how it'll plan. If in Prime Battler is supposed to remember thanks to a game, a story or something equally innocent Yasu probably hadn't touched the bottom yet and, had things not gone wrong she could have still be saved. If she really murdered people to make Battler remember... well, she was beyond salvation. She's mad as a horse and, even if Battler were to remember, he wouldn't be able to save her. Surely the Yasu of the gameboards is beyond salvation. Was the Yasu of Prime beyond salvation as well? We'll never know... |
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2012-09-23, 15:20 | Link #30734 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Maybe Beatrice is just the name of a novel Kinzo lost during the war and couldn't get over it because he never got to finish the story.
More seriously tho, I think murders in the story don't reflect any reality of prime. Just like losing a meta-battle can result in "dying". Just like George winning an argument against his mother was depicted as a fantasy battle that lead to her death in arc 6. Beatrice's murders of everyone in the story probably refers to something similar. If anything I can't help but think about arc 2 where the adults dies after believing in Beatrice/magic. "I defeated them all with my tricks" could be very well what this represents... ... I can almost see it being represented by a meta-battle occurring with victims and Beato always winning. Kinda like Kyrie vs Leviathan in arc 3. |
2012-09-23, 17:43 | Link #30735 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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The real question is: how much of the gameboards also happened on Prime? Assuming the info we learn about what's outside the box are true all we know is: - a boy that was assumed to be Kanon went to Jessica's school - in George's house were found letters sent by Shannon that presumably implied closeness between them - Rudolf's family minus Ange, Eva's family and Rosa's family went on the island using first a plane and then a boat, Jessica and Kumasawa went to get them. - Battler, as usual, made a rucus on the boat - Rosa was likely seen beating Maria while on the train. The social services also suspected her of not being a good mother - letters were sent containing what was needed to get to a bank account with lot of money in. - apparently messages in the bottles containing tales were sent before the incident - all the siblings had money troubles - by a while Kinzo wasn't showing himself to the servants who weren't Genji, Shannon or Kanon (and possibly Kumasawa) or to other people that weren't Krauss, Natsuhi or Nanjo. - a bomb exploded at midnight - Eva escaped with the head's ring and reached Kuwadorian - Battler also escaped through an underground tunnel (possibly with someone else) but didn't reach Kuwadorian. He managed to leave the island through and no one heard of him until he showed up in front of Ange years later - Ryukishi said something along the line of how it's easy to figure out the adults did something that caused that mess. Now... if the first 2 gameboards represented tales written prior to the incident at best they can represent what Yasu had in mind to do (a game or a mass murder based on the epitaph) and how she planned to attuate it (hiring accomplices) while the other gameboards might contain bits of how things really went. Which are those bits however is hard as hell if not impossible to say for sure. |
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2012-09-23, 19:53 | Link #30736 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2012
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And why would she even start playing Kanon's role? Is there any particular reason? |
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2012-09-24, 05:16 | Link #30737 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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3) She blew it up the same way she blew up the shrine... I guess. |
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2012-09-24, 08:36 | Link #30739 |
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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I have a really hard time with the idea of Natsuhi's pride being such that the most sensible way to get her to go along with Beatrice's plan is to tell her that people will really die and to threaten to kill her and her family if they don't do what she says - particularly in a situation where Natsuhi was unlikely to trust in Beatrice's guarantees of their safety. Doesn't make sense.
There are, surely, better ways to go about that. There's no need to up the ante by telling Natsuhi that it's any more than a fake murder game. What about blackmailing her with info that would damage the honour of the family if it got released? "If you don't go along with this harmless game, I'll release information about Krauss's failed finances/Kinzo's death and the big cover-up/Kinzo's skeevy past/the child from 19 years ago, but if you do go along with it I'll give you loads of money and never say a word." |
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