2009-07-25, 14:01 | Link #1 |
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Join Date: May 2007
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What about using anonymous P2P?
I was wondering why the anime community don't move on an anonymous p2p: it would be better for our privacy!
There have been plenty of anonymous p2p clients out there for years, but most of them have remained almost a proof of concept and their use didn't spread. There are several reasons for this, but I think the main problem is that they're very slow (1 kBps is usually a miracle in these clients). Clients like MUTE or ANTS failed miserably and they're not actively developed anymore. A decent bandwidth is offered by TOR, but it cannot be used for p2p, because it's thought to surf the web anonymously. I used plenty of anonymous clients, but almost all of them are useless for pratical use. I found out that among these clients I2P and Stealthnet are quite useable, they give a decent speed (over 10 kBps in average) right now. With more users speeds should increase. I think the anime community should drop the classic bittorrent distribution method in order to adopt something more modern, which protects the users' privacy better! |
2009-07-25, 14:55 | Link #2 |
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why would I want to exchange 300 kbps for 10 D:
for me p2p has a major spamware label hanging on top of it, I'm sure many will agree on that I don't really see the advantages of it, you degrade your kbps and you have a higher spamware infection chance, if this is about IP addresses they will still trace it some way or the other and not everyone needs to hide their IP would be a better statement to make: hey why doesn't the anime community move to the Netherlands where our law thinks its okay to download anime if it is for personal viewing use =D |
2009-07-25, 15:24 | Link #3 |
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Spam has been dealt with since ancient times with filters or user reviews. Not to mention on I2P, for example, there are bittorrent trackers and on bittorrent spam is very low, because as soon as a torrent is revealed to be spam it gets removed. The problem you mention doesn't really exist, if someone configures/uses the proper tools.
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2009-07-25, 16:23 | Link #4 |
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I remember back when torrents just started and I was still using Kazaa and later on Bearshare that the program itself was not secure enough which caused dll files and others trojan files to be added without you being aware of it or it would be something added to your download, bad thing about p2p is that if you need a batch of files they have to be .rar or .zip or you have to look for each file seperately, which is also why torrents are still advanced, you don't know what people put in a rar or zip and with p2p there is no way you can check out comments either, like the fake movie torrents there will always be a mass of seeders so without comments you will never know, there may be a blog but I wouldn't want to go to the blog every time I decide I want a file it is just extra work, secondly not every one is up to date with the best virus scanner or anything else if spamware hits you sometimes you wont even notice it, not every one has the right tools and not ever one wants to do a lot of other things before being allowed to download, not when a torrent is much less work, anyone as lazy as I am wouldn't want to install 1-2 extra programs before installing a p2p program.
and besides I still wouldn't trade my 300 kbps torrent minimum for the amount you've mentioned, this I think would be a major turn off for every one here and probably would be the main reason not to do this your p2p system might work differently from what I've mentioned (pretty sure it does lol I'm probably saying quite idiotic things atm because of my lack of knowledge) but still even the wiki page mentions spam and DoS attacks, but my experiences with p2p systems have left me with a detest for them and again the speed is crap lol |
2009-07-25, 21:31 | Link #6 | ||||
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In fact comments/filters come in helping soemtimes, but not always: when you are in front of a rar with no comments then anything can be stored inside, and this happens evreywhere evreytime. Anonymous bittorrent doesn't solve these kinds of problems: it only makes sure the world didn't know you downloaded a certain file or you visited some site. Most likely such secrecy seems exaggerated to you for your ordinary Internet activities, but take into account that repression around freedom of speech and freedom of exchange any kind of data is getting higher and higher anywhere in the world. Another front anonymous p2p is useful is in blocking the profiling of your Internet activities by advertising companies. Quote:
Anyway a good enough reason for the common user to switch to an anonymous p2p system can be the safety of not being monitored by organizatios like RIAA and MPAA. Quote:
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People don't really know what being anonymous means it seems: MegaUpload, like any http download, is the least anonymous of all of the downloading method. All of the information about a download is in only one place, making it a piece of cake to identify the uploader/downloader of sensitive data. |
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2009-07-26, 00:03 | Link #7 | |
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If you're not the uploader, I don't think that they could take you court over using MegaUpload because it can be used over any regular browser, while clients like emule and bittorrent use their own protocols. |
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2009-07-26, 01:27 | Link #8 | ||
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Not to mention that the law doesn't admit ignorance... so an excuse like that would be shoot down immediately. Before I wrote something wrong: http downloads are even worse than centralized p2p... an example of centralized p2p was napster, but an http download is even less secure because the provider you're downloading a file from (MegaUpload, RapidShare and such) can see evreything you're doing and knows what file you're downloading, when you finish it and at what percentage of the download you're at. It has all of these information in a nice text file and it can turn it over to the authorities when they would ask for it. Sure downloading from it is way faster: they're connected to gigabit backbones, so they have plenty of bandwidth, but they have nothing to do with privacy! I think in p2p world an equation may be done: more privacy = less bandwidth or another way to view the issue: more bandwidth = less privacy. Quote:
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2009-07-26, 05:58 | Link #9 | |
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besides even your internet provider knows what you are doing, they can get everything from them and even see in their files that you are using an anonymous p2p program, the authorities are not stupid whether it is torrent, p2p or direct download there will always be someone watching you and it isn't the website creator, I think you forget that, Anon p2p may hide what files you are downloading but as soon as a program goes online your internet provider will have it listed and when they read p2p don't expect them to think you're on it just to chat to people or something, they know you are downloading things, most of the times it is through a provider that the authorities gather their evidence and not through a host site like megaupload on the internet there is no such thing as privacy, you can hide a little info but there will always be a leak and having that isn't always that bad unless you don't want to get caught downloading CP or something, I don't know where you live but not in every country do we get sued for downloading something like straight away unless you REALLY mess up, if that was so then anon p2p would probably be a lot more popular and torrents wouldn't even exist or would be closed down even if there is less privacy you can still get caught >.< the trade for less bandwidth would hardly make any sense when your provider can still read what you are doing and if authorities can see from them that you've been p2ping they will claim your pc and then privacy is pretty much useless cause they can simply see what you tried to hide also not every where is downloading illegal, why would I want to switch if in my country it is allowed to download series and movies if it is for personal use, the only thing that is illegal is downloading software, games and uploading for other people but the government doesn't do anything about it anyway unless you start selling DVD's or software on the web or street besides it isn't as if anon p2p programs are foul proof many studio's are still suing them because they know of copyright infringement, like your provider to collect evidence they need it from and can still get it from a source, how I see it is that your privacy is simply hidden somewhere else but not unobtainable, when it comes to court they will get that info, that or the p2p company will get sued themselves and we all know what happened to piratebay Last edited by -KarumA-; 2009-07-26 at 06:27. |
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2009-07-26, 08:31 | Link #10 | |||||||||
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Anyway even in your own home you can have your privacy, ebcause there are several programs which let you encrypt the entires hard disk, like True Crypt. Quote:
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On anonymous networks like Freenet or I2P there is, that's the reason they're there, after all! Quote:
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The copyright associations are suing bittorrent trackers or centralizied p2p servers in general, because it's far easier then going after evrey user. Anyway they sued thousands of users as well because they all used first or second generation p2p programs (centralized or decentralized, but without anonymous mechanisms). You say that the privacy is hidden somewhere else: this is false as well. In an anonymous networks a user's privacy data is evreywhere and nowhere at the same time. I think you're quite confused about how anonymous networks function, so I suggest you this I2P tutorial as a good example of how an anonymous network functions. |
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2009-07-26, 10:55 | Link #11 |
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atm Warner and several other studio's are still in court suing several people using the Anon p2p network because of copyright infringement and Colorado federal court had given permission for their hidden IP addresses and other info to be revealed to them, you may hide your identity but they can still trace you down in fact they managed to trace down that these people were all part of Qwest Communications internet services and they will figure out who these people were
but see here you said your ISP can still see you're getting masses of data, that alone is suspicious for them and if anyone did want to sue you and saw those numbers, not the files, it would be enough to confiscate your computer which would leave this useless anyway as for freedom of speech, there is freedom of speech on the internet it all depends on what you want to say and where you say it, if there was no freedom of speech then you wouldn't have any Blood and Honor websites existing that promote racism, and most importantly 4chan wouldn't even exist, let alone /b/ besides if people are having no troubles saying what they want to say at this moment why would they want to switch, also the provider that sees me download files doesn't do anything with it unless requested to and even then only under court order will they release that kind of info which is the same that is needed if they want to confiscate your PC because you are downloading masses of to them unknown data, if someone does that it is more suspicious than when people can actually see what you do. If, by example, I were to tell the police you have CP on your pc and they can only see that you are downloading masses of data then they will surely find a way to confiscate your pc for further investigation anon p2p could be a solution for countries where the checking are really tough, but the masses will not use it when their rules are overlooked so much besides privacy being an issue to many people torrent community has already been taking steps to hide ones privacy from the provider with success |
2009-07-26, 12:10 | Link #13 | ||||||
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Most likely what Warner did was obtaining an injuction from the court which ordered the ISP to reveal the identity of the persons behind some ip addresses. I'm pretty sure of this because it's useless to sue some ip at random, because the traffic generated by those ips are NOT THEIR OWN, they route it for other nodes. Not to mention the data which passes from a certain node is useless, because it's only a part of a downloaded file, for example. EDIT: In fact it's like I predicted. Quote:
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Not to mention that if you don't have something to hide you don't need privacy... well it's a famous phrase said by a certain dude named Hitler... Anyway there is no freedom of speech on the Internet: sure you can talk about useless daily life things, but if you wat to talk about sensitive topics it can get really dangerous. This lack of comprehension for the current situation, rather defending how much monitored the net is it's the very reason because of people don't care about privacy on the Internet. Quote:
If someone wants to defend his own privacy on the net is a potential pedophile or terrorist, that's a given! Go asking to the tens of thousands of sued people if they would have used anonymous p2p to avoid to be sued... people simply don't care about problems until they hit them in the face it seems, beause they want to keep things simple. Quote:
The fact is it's breaking down and soon it will be a suicide to make p2p on the public Internet, because you could be sued and/or filtered and/or remaining without connection. Last edited by ipernorris; 2009-07-26 at 12:20. |
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2009-07-26, 14:28 | Link #14 |
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okay then name one sensitive subject that according to your words is such a hazard that it isn't even allowed to be spoken off that would need not only IP protection
people developing new technology avoid the internet like a plague to begin with, those things are usually not even discussed online or in email if it comes to work, whenever I have a client who needs a commercial made or docu I never send him samples online, I come by their company and personally discuss what they want and what we have so far quite frankly I don't see any up sides to what you've told so far, so my privacy is protected from what? from FBI agents that want to read how I'm telling my friend about my day or what I products I am making for a new client or that I have or have not watched porn this week? now if I was in China it would be differently but China isn't the whole world and still if feds do get suspicious about you downloading or not and they see that you've received a mass of data over the past days/weeks/months they can still confiscate your computer or get a warrant for your house, if for example you use anon p2p but don't have any other protection then seeing what websites you visit will make it a quick guess what all the data is that's coming your way and don't you even start about what Hitler said and didn't say cause Hitler didn't care about privacy his men would just shoot you in the head for making for making a bad joke, that has nothing to do with this alright Last edited by -KarumA-; 2009-07-26 at 14:38. |
2009-07-26, 14:51 | Link #15 |
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I am fully aware of the possible consequences for my actions, but I continue to use P2P file sharing. It is not out of ignorance that I overlook such consequences, quite the opposite.
ISP's don't have the capacity to monitor and ban everyone who file shares illegally, and in reality, they don't even want to. Such an operation would incur massive costs and most of the time doesn't provide enough evidence to stand in court. Banning large amounts of customers, significantly reduceing a companies revenue and driving up costs. Does that seem like a successful business model to you? No, it doesn't and I can guarantee shareholders wont like it. In fact, I can guarantee most stakeholders won't like it. The business world is full of corruption, cartels and many other anti-competitive trading tactics. On the surface it will look as if ISP's are combating illegal file sharing, but in reality they doing very little. The only real reason they throttle P2P traffic is to reduce their own costs by saving bandwidth. Suing all pirates is totally infeasible. The time, money and risk involved in such a strategy means the option is not even on the table. So to say it would be 'suicide' to use P2P on the public internet is naive. ......would you look at that. I did have more to say I'm suprised this debate actually got so heated and interesting. |
2009-07-26, 23:17 | Link #16 | |||||||
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Anyway most people here say "eh the government doesn't implement the copyright laws"... yeah in fact tens of thousands of sued people are nothing! The copyright laws will become stricter and stricter: now people already risk jail and very expensive fines in a lot of countries, so the situation is getting worse and worse. Most people don't even realize this and keep ignoring the problem, until it will hit their face (and their bank account) very hardly. Quote:
Don't to mention looking into someone surfing habits should need a warrant by itself, and shouldn't be done routinely just to find suspects. In China this can be done, in the rest of the world not, for now, even if people accept it as it was normal! Quote:
But let me ask you something: why take a gamble why you can avoid any risk entirely? Quote:
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2009-07-27, 04:52 | Link #17 | ||||
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I like your way of replying to other comments, so I'm going to borrow it. There are a lot of different stances in this thread, so I will assist you by clarifying mine.
I don't question the capability of anonymous P2P clients. I question the level of risk involved in file sharing and the ability/willingness of ISP's to police the Internet. Quote:
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The law is creating a lot of controversy about privacy and civil rights. Such laws prevent us from having freedom and will be used heavily by opposition parties to gain voters. The public will not allow the government to monitor/dictate their lives. Copyright associations are unethical and socially irresponsible making them much hated by the public. Piracy has existed for centuries and I can't see it stopping now. The Internet simply provides a new type of piracy, one which we are not entirely sure how to deal with. Last edited by miscs; 2009-07-27 at 05:08. |
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2009-07-27, 05:26 | Link #18 | |||||
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The speed is the only relevant problem, but the anonymous p2p of today are much better than the programs of the past. In I2P, for example, I can reach 20 KBps with the bittorrent, and that's something very noticeable in such a nanoscopic network. If the peers would be, let's say, 300 thousands insteand of 1500, things would be totally different, most users wouldn't even notice the difference with the normal Internet and it would be even more anonymous. The more the better! Quote:
This could really cripple the economy of a family: if one or both the parents work through the net, then if it is shut down because the son downloaded too many mp3s would mean that family will have serious financial problems. Quote:
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Anyway I don't think these many voters will switch party: reading some posts here on the line "if you don't have something to hide you don't need privacy" says it all. Quote:
The copyright infringment witch hunt is funny somewhat: it's like put in the same race a turtle and an atletic champion... the outcome is already known before the beginning! |
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2009-07-27, 06:45 | Link #19 |
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I'm not ashamed of websites I visit or about what I do on the internet, a log may be recorded of what I do but that doesn't always mean that someone is reading every thing I do daily or monthly and will be responding to it, in order for that to happen they would need a lot more people to fill those jobs
without my ISP making a log I wouldn't have known 2 months ago that I had a porn bot hidden in my usb drivers on my PC even after reformatting the computer, it was my is ISP who even made me aware that I was sending out porn spam to random people, without that I wouldn't have found out about it and if someone is reading my logs there is still nothing they can do: In the Netherlands, according to article 16b of the Dutch Auteurswet, you can make a private copy, if you have no commercial interest. Also, according to article 16c of the Dutch Auteurswet, reproduction (for listening etc.) is allowed. Therefore, downloading as such is not illegal in the Netherlands. It is actually the uploading that’s illegal. and this counts for music and dvd's |
2009-07-27, 08:28 | Link #20 | |||
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