2011-04-14, 20:39 | Link #2001 | |
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For one thing, what you're writing here contradicts what you wrote in reply to ThereminVox earlier on in the same post. If Madoka is remembering things from alternate timelines, then they most certainly do "carry over", and "have significance". Beyond that, time travel can work in more than just one set way. For example, it could be argued that every timeline that Homura has operated within continues on existing (as is) after she goes back in time. It's just that by Homura going back in time, she's created a new timeline; a new alternate reality branch, if you will. To try to put it as simply as possible, Homura may not be wiping out entire timelines and replacing them with a fresh new one, but simply creating brand new ones while "older" timelines continue on without her. A lot of this goes back to multiple alternate realities theory - Homura may be simply "jumping off" from one reality to the next to the next. Not wiping any out, but just leaving a different mark on each and every one. I can try to explain this particular conception of time travel in more detail if necessary, but I think that you probably get what I'm saying here.
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2011-04-14, 23:37 | Link #2002 | |
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It could also be that the "Soul" exists outside the realm of time and space, thus allowing it to be able to move through time without consequences, since Homura can send her soul gem into the past. Since it would appear that Madoka's soul would have gone through forced separation and re-attachment to her body it would very likely mean that the memories engraved on her soul travel back as well. It makes me wonder, perhaps dying erases most of the memories of the soul, what if Homura time traveled while someone else was still alive? Could they awaken with retained memories as well? i.e. there soul gem goes back in time as well. Unfortunately we will not know since the potential people to do it with are all dead -_-
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2011-04-14, 23:58 | Link #2003 | |
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Given Urobochi's quote from the batch that Kazu-kun posted earlier, it might even be correct to say that Madoka's universe indeed uses multiple worlds splitting off from timelines, as you are saying. While I consider that unlikely and not an attractive addition to the story conceptually, that isn't really my point either. Simply, I was trying to reinforce the idea that from Homura's perspective, all of her past interactions and experiences cannot be superimposed on the current Madoka. She made a promise to Madoka of timeline 3--the Madoka of timeline 5 is a different person, just like they both were different from Madoka of timeline 1. Homura needs to realize that the wishes of each of them will be different, because they have each been changed by the unrelenting flow of time. While I think Madoka 'remembering' everything and gaining access to all her alternate experiences would be interesting, in the sense that it appeals to our innate desire and wish to believe that things which happen do have significance, do get written somewhere in the aether or history to say that our struggles and experiences actually mean something, I would feel somewhat uncomfortable believing in or counting on it. I think a more grounded, realistic expectation for Homura must be to realize that however strong, however determined, however precious her feelings and promises to past Madoka's might be, she should not hope or expect for them to reach the current Madoka because that Madoka is a different person. Aside from the 'subconscious memory' stuff, my main point in the above post was basically still just that I think Homura's misguided, and that her wish is unfulfillable. So, whether it's a new separate reality or the old past has merely been written over, from my perspective, realistically, the gulf between past and present Madoka's is just as vast as ever. |
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2011-04-15, 01:50 | Link #2004 | ||||||
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Why should there be this bond? this reciprocation of feeling? We know from timeline 1 why Homura is obsessed with Madoka. Homura is a shy and lonely girl, who finds in Madoka her one and only friend. But the converse is not true for Madoka: she is reasonably well-adjusted socially, and has other friends besides Homura. So the question arises: does Madoka ever reciprocate this intensity of feeling? Does Madoka care for Homura with the same passion that Homura does for her? If we take Sol Falling's excellent point, that "if Homura travels back to rewrite history, then those past experiences--those past deaths, past promises and past Madokas--in fact cease to exist. On an objective level. They don't carry over, cannot touch anything, have no significance," then all that Madoka knows of Homura is what she knows in the current timeline. In timeline 5, Madoka knows Homura hardly at all. Strictly speaking, Madoka has no bond with Homura worth speaking of. But even if we allow Madoka to share a transcendent perspective of some kind on all the timelines, the historical evidence is still mixed. If we review the timelines, we notice a great variability in Madoka's relationships with Homura, from the intense happiness Madoka feels for Homura at her success in defeating the witch who rains chairs from beneath her skirts in timeline 2, to the cool distance that stands between them in timelines 4 and 5. So even if Madoka does "remember" Homura, as you envisage, would there be any place in her remembering where her own heart would reach out to Homura with the same intensity and need that Homura has for Madoka? On reflection, I don't think so. Madoka does not care for Homura in the same way that Homura cares for her. Much as I hate to disappoint all the yuri shippers out there, Homura's obsessive dedication is sui generis and one-sided. Quote:
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Kazu-kun, has anyone ever told you that you are a Gnostic!? Quote:
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There are additional ways to think of growing up. One is to act for oneself, rather than to let others (e.g. parents) act for you. Another is accept that the world is not a fairy-tale, and to act in full awareness that one's actions have costs and negative consequences, especially for oneself. Yet another is to make a life-long commitment to another person. I'm sure there are many others that you can think of. Do you envisage Madoka growing up in any of these latter ways as well? Or is it enough for her simply to know the truth about herself, that she has worth, that she is lovable, and so on? Quote:
This issue is not simply an interpretative one. Remember Homura's conversation with QB in timeline 4, when QB asks her if she is going to stay and fight Kriemhild Gretchen, and Homura declines, on the account that this is not her timeline. What is Homura's timeline? If it is the first, can she ever get back to it? No! Put Madoka to one side: Homura cannot even overcome the gulf between the current timeline and herself. Last edited by hyperborealis; 2011-04-15 at 02:28. |
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2011-04-15, 02:14 | Link #2005 | |||
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Otherwise, Madoka may be privileged because of either her innate power or being the object of Homura's wish and thus directly related to the time-rewinding process. Quote:
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2011-04-15, 06:31 | Link #2006 | |||||||||||||||||
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Determinism is a prominent school of philosophical thought, arguing that free will doesn't really exist, and hence 'fate' exists, and in a very real way. This anime also hints at the idea that Madoka has a specific fate, one that she may or may not be able to overcome. The human soul is something commonly believed in, being an integral part of many world religions. The human soul is also an integral part of this anime, specifically through the soul gem. Some quantum physicists have seriously suggested that alternate existences may very well exist. As it pertains to this anime, I don't see where alternate realities is any less grounded or realistic a concept than time loops themselves are. These are things commonly believed in and/or seriously considered worldwide, and for ages now. Quote:
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That being said, Homura's feelings and promises to past Madokas may in fact reach the current Madoka. One thing that should be stated here is that Madoka now has enough basic, practical evidence to work with that, should she have an even moderately sharp deductive mind, she should be able to figure out how Homura feels about her. Homura's tearful breakdown in front of Madoka (which Madoka herself saw of course) clearly suggests that Homura cares deeply about Madoka. But even putting that aside, Homura has gone to great and obvious lengths to prevent Madoka from contracting with Kyubey. Now Madoka has come to realize the full extent of the horrors seemingly intractably linked with contracting with Kyubey. It wouldn't take much self-reflection and thought on Madoka's part for her to realize that Homura has gone to heroic lengths to save her from being trapped in the dark world of the Puella Magis. Madoka can then consider how Homura did not go to such lengths for Sayaka, so that Homura must care about Madoka in particular (i.e. Homura isn't simply an "equal opportunity" hero a la Superman). This is something that Madoka can now arrive at a purely intellectual level. It wouldn't surprise me if she did. So, for example, I could easily see Madoka confronting Homura with these deductions (or ones similar to them) in Episode 11. Such could easily lead into a very emotional and even tearful scene between the two. So... don't lose hope, yuri fans, I see how just a little bit of smarts on Madoka's part could give you what you want. Quote:
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Keep in mind that Homura's feelings for Madoka are entirely due to how Madoka voluntarily reached out to Homura in Timeline 1. Madoka's inspirational kindness towards new transfer student Homura, and Madoka saving Homura's very life, are two of the main reasons why Homura has the feelings for Madoka that she does. It's not like Homura saw Madoka, and was overwhelmed with a feeling of lust for Madoka on the sheer basis of Madoka's physical appearance. No, Homura loves Madoka because Madoka first showed warmth and kindness to her. How fitting would it be if Madoka comes to love Homura because Homura "first" saved her and showed caring to her? Homura's feelings for Madoka really aren't that one-sided. At least not at a friendship level. Quote:
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It provides at least some basis and foreshadowing for Madoka eventually coming to fully reciprocate Homura's feelings for her, should Gen choose to go in that direction. Quote:
I don't think that these are things that should be casually dismissed. Quote:
In Timeline 5, Madoka continually goes out of her way to seek Homura out for guidance and help. Was that solely out of concern for Sayaka's current situation (at the time), or was it also because Madoka has a vague subconscious memory of Homura that makes her feel like she can trust Homura, in spite of Homura's very cold front in Timeline 5? Quote:
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2011-04-15, 06:45 | Link #2007 | ||
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Madoka doesn't really need to seek Homura's guidance, it's Homura's best interest to provide that guidance whenever possible. She could not bother about it until Madoka met Kyuubey, but afterwards she has to balance between trying to open her friend's eyes and spiraling down the Cassandra path again (something she clearly doesn't want). Quote:
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2011-04-15, 07:11 | Link #2008 | |
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At the very least, I think that it's possible that some vague subconscious memories of other timelines is causing Madoka to not completely lose faith in Homura; to see through the cold mask that Homura is putting up, as it were.
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2011-04-15, 08:22 | Link #2009 | |
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The timelines don't seem to cancel out 100%. And you seem to misunderstand Madoka. She's not someone who casually makes friends and that's it. The way she acts seems to suggest that she values each one of them a great deal. To the point that her own life is worthless next to theirs and that she would sacrifice herself for anyone of them. So I don't see why a reciprocative bond on Madoka's part is impossible.
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2011-04-15, 09:08 | Link #2010 | ||
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On the other hand, if the said girl appeared fighting and dying in my dream, the came to my school and started trolling me with vague warnings, then saved my life from a giant caterpillar... I would at least be SLIGHLTY persistent to figure out something about her. Or you can draw parallels with Nanoha - the girl from Shinbo's earlier work who struggled to understand and help a certain cold and nonchalantly aggressive battle mage just because "she has such sad eyes". Quote:
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2011-04-15, 09:54 | Link #2011 |
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I gotta agree. But then Madoka is Madoka. Will she take Kyubey's bait despite all those stuff? But then, consider Madoka's magical potential. Would it be enough to create a loophole to satisfy all odds? I mean...if Madoka wished she had unlimited amount of magical energy or something...wouldn't that satisfy Kyubey's entropy and Madoka does not have to turn into a witch? ^_^
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2011-04-15, 10:09 | Link #2012 | |
今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている
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2011-04-15, 10:40 | Link #2013 | ||
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2011-04-15, 11:47 | Link #2014 | |
今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている
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2011-04-15, 12:02 | Link #2015 | |
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Well, that's part of the miracle the magazine is going about. Objectivity, Madoka shouldn't have those memories, yet she still does. It's something that defies logic, an actual miracle. The key!
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2011-04-15, 12:07 | Link #2016 | |
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there is still a bond that fasten them together, the simplest form being classmates. but homu goes even further (taking the role of a protector in multiple instances) by saving madoka (and sayaka) from charlotte. though sayaka sees it differently, madoka knew the whole story and promised she'll never forget homu from saving her life. and then, there's homu's intervention in the kyouko vs sayaka fight. and another, homu's retrieval of sayaka's soul gem. and lately, carrying madoka out to safety from rampaging witch sayaka. madoka witnessed it all, except the latter, for she was gone unconscious. it will be totally out of character in madoka's part to deny that "something" between them after all these seemingly kind deeds. that something does not need to be equal in degree in both sides, most of the times, usually, one acts greater or more than the other. and this is what i think, homu might eventually fail in the end because of that "something" or simply a bond. because madoka has that tendency to take risks to save others. when homu and mado were having a little chat in the rooftop, homu told madoka to give up on sayaka, for the latter owes her nothing; and homu also told madoka the difference of acting out of gratitude and responsibility. in the first case, unlike sayaka, madoka owes homu her life, not once, but in multiple occasions. in the second case, madoka might just realize that it's her responsibility to help homu and not to act simply out of gratitude or sympathy. homu too, is a friend... now going back to the original puzzle you posted, it seems inevitable that homu will likely fail in the end. the final decision is madoka's, true. but i think it will be a tough one for madoka and with due consideration of homu's state/condition/pleas. yes, homu has a hand in it, whether homu will like it or not, it's madoka's judgment. well, that's for now. EDIT: i'm revisiting the earlier episodes, and i noticed that in madoka's costume sketch, we could find the caricature of homu on the left side along with mami. now, is this simply for design references? i doubt it. homu and mado barely made enough contact, maybe barely a day worth of staring and checking out each other. but homu (the caricature) is there, along with madoka's idolized hero/savior, mami. it might be just a small hint. but homu already has a place in madoka's heart. Last edited by kaigan; 2011-04-15 at 12:31. Reason: additional thoughts |
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2011-04-15, 12:09 | Link #2017 | ||||||||||
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The anime does suggest that Madoka has some kind of memory that transcends the timelines. But also a forgetting as well, since only Madoka has this memory (the other characters don't seem to), and even Madoka only has a (fairly detailed) glimmer of just the previous timeline. Quote:
These questions aren't really serious, Triple R. I just raise them to point out that your assertion "that the Madoka of Day 1 of each timeline are all essentially one and the same Madoka" is not obviously true. That said, the show does have a detailed operational science of souls. We are shown that souls can be removed from bodies and yet animate them from a separate residence within a Soul Gem. This certainly suggests that people have a single spiritual essence that transcends its incarnation in any particular bodily form. Quote:
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The one time Homura does express her emotions and her vulnerability to Madoka, Madoka asks her if they'd met before, apologizes, and then books out to go hunt for Sayaka. Homura is crying and distraught, kneeling on the ground, begging Madoka to wait, and Madoka--leaves. It's an emergency and all, but still! You're not going to float too many yuri ships on that river of Homura's rising tears. Quote:
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For Homura, Madoka is the only one. For Madoka, Homura is one among several. Quote:
Homura seems resigned to saving Madoka without thanks. That may be where the series leaves it. Quote:
But it is true that Madoka cannot understand why Homura won't help the other MGs in the current timeline, and that Homura politely but firmly refuses to help Sayaka when Madoka asks her to on Sayaka's behalf. The distance between the two girls is marked and real. No doubt Homura acts out of superior knowledge and bitter experience. But her refusal to think of Sayaka as anything but a lost cause (in contrast, say, to Kyoko, who retains hope, and receives Madoka's friendship and support on account of that hope) makes her fundamentally different from Madoka, who retains hope and sympathy for all her friends. You should not let hope for a happy, romantic ending obscure the substantial differences between the two girls. Come now, the record is mixed. Madoka is much more friendly toward Homura in the early timelines than in the later ones. The reasons for liking Homura vary too. In the first, Madoka is proud of having saved Homura from the witch. In the second, Madoka bonds with Homura over her success in learning how to use her time-power to defeat witches. In the third, Madoka rejects Homura's lovers' suicide proposition. In the fourth, Homura goes it alone, and beyond appearing at her window, to tell her to beware strangers handing out miracles, has no relationship at all with Madoka. Timeline 5 we have discussed at length. The relationship between the girls is not all the same! Quote:
I agree that Madoka does care for Homura, as she cares for each of her friends. But I think my main point stands: Madoka does not care for Homura with the same intensity, passion, and need that Homura cares for Madoka. Homura's feelings for Madoka express her particular character and background, which Madoka of course does not share. There is nothing to say that these different kinds of caring must somehow comprise a special bond that could account for Madoka's memories across the timelines. |
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2011-04-15, 13:22 | Link #2018 |
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Hyperborealis - I may reply to you in greater detail later, but for now, there's a central point that I want to convey here.
Madoka having a caring and friendly attachment to a lot of people, while Homura has a passionate attachment to Madoka and Madoka alone, does not preclude the two sharing a particularly deep friendship, or even a romance. In real life, there are no doubt many cases where one half of a romantic couple has a wider circle of friends than the other half does. For one half of a romantic couple, the other person may mean virtually everything to him or her, while for the other half of a romantic couple, his or her romantic partner may simply be "first among many", if you get my drift. This isn't a relationship dynamic that is completely inconceivable. It may not be a healthy relationship dynamic, I'll grant you, but it is possible. While Madoka does care a great deal about several different people, and likely has the capacity to care at least a little bit about any human being that she encounters, that doesn't mean that she's unable to prioritize the people around her. In other words, it doesn't mean that she's not capable of putting her mother before a perfect stranger, or putting Sayaka before her other friends. Likewise, I think that Madoka would be capable of choosing a romantic partner, and putting that person "first among many". Also, I think Madoka was simply stunned by Homura's emotional breakdown in front of her, and didn't know what to make of it, since it was such a sharp contrast to the largely cold Homura of Timeline 5. As such, Madoka placed her focus back on the pressing issue of finding Sayaka and helping her. I wouldn't be terribly disappointed if this anime doesn't result in a Homura/Madoka romance, but I don't think it's something that should be completely ruled out, either. I also think that Madoka is not at all the sort of person who would make the kind of very harsh criticisms of Homura that you can picture her making (unless that was tongue-in-cheek on your part, in which case, very funny ). I think that if somebody went to great lengths to try to save Madoka from a very harmful situation (and Homura has unquestionably done that), that Madoka would be very moved by that.
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2011-04-15 at 13:34. |
2011-04-15, 13:24 | Link #2019 | |||
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So, when/if Madoka actually "remembers" Homura, and the promise they shared, she'll be able to understand herself as if she was looking at her own reflection in a mirror, a reflection that is much Homura as is Madoka herself. This concept is great, if you thing about it. Its actual beauty resides in how it shows there's more "magic" in a promise between two friends than it a contract with an emissary of a highly advanced alien race. The fact that this alien has no feelings is the more poignant. It harks back to the fact that in the end, magic is just emotion. Quote:
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In the end, a sense of self-worth is the core element of any individual, don't you think?
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2011-04-15 at 13:46. |
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2011-04-15, 13:30 | Link #2020 | |
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