Madoka Magica - Episode 05 Discussion / Poll

[Quadratic]

To me, it seems Kyubey's motives are solely on making Madoka a magical girl and everyone is just a catalyst in driving her in that direction - Mami's death (urging them to form the contract) and Kyoko & Sayaka fighting (he didn't try very hard to prevent this fight).
Yet both attempts have been foiled by Homura intervening.

And it's very suspicious that in the previous ep when he "leaves" he specifically says "Goodbye, Madoka"...it's as if he knew beforehand that he'll be back to form a contract with Sayaka.

Also, what's the deal with Homura's diamond on her fingernail? It's generally shown as a solid diamond, but the single closeup shot of her opening the coffee cup the diamond is hollow (also note that this is exactly after she spoke ill of Mami's death). Animation error or director trying to be artistic?

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Vanish

Actually Sayaka tried to be on the offensive but got pushed back to defend due to Kyoko's permanent and fast swinging of her spear which occasionally diverted itself making her moves even less predictable. But yeah, there was no point and Sayaka is too reckless.

And well, there's nothing else she can rely on, is there?

Sayaka was capable of advancing. She has a shorter, lighter, and faster weapon than Kyouko, and she was never required to directly block that spear from the front. That required more strength than was necessary. All she had to do with her sword was divert the attack, or parry it away from her body and continue moving forward. One of the most basic tactics to fighting is to close the distance on your opponent. The one advancing is in a better position to land her attacks, while the opponent is disadvantaged because she cannot extend the full reach of her attack, which lowers her attacking power. Sayaka, the one with the shorter weapon, would have been far safer going through Kyouko's spear attacks than when she backed off.
It's a little disappointing that the one with the longer ranged weapon is able to practice this concept better than the one with the weapon more suited to close range combat.
Sayaka's stance is also incorrect too. She should be standing sideways, with one of her shoulders facing front towards the opponent. The side stance is standard for minimizing the frontal area vulnerable to an attack.

It would be understandable if Kyouko won by keeping her distance. Her weapon has the greater range, so there's no way Sayaka can win a mid-range fight.
However, when Kyouko was able to defend herself and pressure Sayaka in close combat with a longer weapon, it just shows how unskilled Sayaka is at fighting and how her first Witch kill was just her being carried by her Puella Magi powers. Put the special powers aside, and Sayaka gets outclassed in every way, just like she did in this ep. She just does not know how to use a sword.

[Decagon]

And here I was wondering why the speculation thread went quiet again. Forgive me for jumping in.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

[snipped]

Like I argued before (either on this thread, or on another thread on this subforum), telling Sayaka about it would likely just cause her to want to confront this magical girl that's coming after her. You yourself, Mentar, have talked at length about how hot-headed Sayaka is. I largely agree with you on that point.

So telling Sayaka about Kyoko would simply raise the likelihood of conflict occurring between them, as Sayaka would likely want to go off and confront this magical girl that wants to fight against her.

It seems to me that Kyubey might simply be being cautious and shrewd.

One could argue that Kyubey is simply like a Supervisor that knows the employees working under him well. He knows what's likely to set them off, and hence what information to be discreet about, and how best to approach them overall.

It's not about "not telling MGs about each other". It's about Kyubey being trustworthy, and acting with discretion, with the sensitive information that magical girls choose to share with him.

A lot of people are only looking at this from Sayaka's perspective, which I think is a mistake. The reason being that from Kyoko's perspective, she's entrusting Kyubey with knowledge of her plans. From her perspective, if Kyubey goes and tells Sayaka about that, then he is betraying her trust in him.

In fact, let's take it one step further... does Kyubey really want to risk pissing off Kyoko?

We've already seen that Kyubey has little defense against a beat-down from a magical girl.

The problem I see here is that Sayaka was very surprised and angry at Kyoko's actions. If she did not have her regenerative abilities, she would have been incapable of conducting her duties as a MG for three months because of Kyoko's first attack, and if Homura had not intervened, Kyubey's new MG would have been dead. To use your analogy, what kind of shrewd supervisor would not want productive employees to remain healthy and productive? Kyubey did not try to prevent a conflict he had advanced notice of. Rather, during the whole time Sayaka was nervous and preparing herself to patrol and fight witches/familiars, he was lying on a comfy sofa wagging his tail. He did not tell her or Madoka a new MG had arrived the night before, nor did he mention that she should be careful about MGs attacking her. He could find Kyoko on his own, so it should be reasonable to say that he could have warned Sayaka to stay away from that area because Kyoko, who was willing to fight/kill Sayaka was already stalking that familiar.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Isn't this already self-evident to Sayaka on the basis of the heated run-ins that Homura and Mami had? Sayaka was present for at least one of those, IIRC.

But he is. He was making statements to Kyoko that clearly had the potential to make her have second thoughts about going after Sayaka. How is that not trying to discourage infighting?

The issue I find with that is that Homura never attacked them, only warned them. Despite stalking them through every battle, she never attacked or even pulled out a weapon toward them. What you are saying about his warning Kyoko could also be used to question why he did not warn Sayaka--why didn't he make Sayaka have second thoughts about going out when there was clearly someone who wanted to chase her off? If Kyoko was going to kill her, why not encourage her to search somewhere Kyoko was not or even move to another city instead of wasting her potential as a MG?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

One could easily argue that if Kyubey didn't contract magical girls, a lot of other innocent people would die due to the threat of the witches and familiars not being mitigated at least somewhat by magical girls.

Is it "treachery" for a person to take actions that results in the lives of innocent civilians being saved?

If this was the case he could have relied on finding more altruistic MG candidates instead of ones who would be willing to maim or kill other MGs, thus retarding the overall witch killing progress by having witches and MGs be threats to MG longevity. Also, as you have brought up Batman again recently, how do you justify this comparison with a mascot that gives a payment in exchange for fighting witches? A hero fights crime for the sake of fighting crime and/or whatever is being villified, not because they will get something material in return.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Sayaka was capable of advancing. She has a shorter, lighter, and faster weapon than Kyouko, and she was never required to directly block that spear from the front. That required more strength than was necessary. All she had to do with her sword was divert the attack, or parry it away from her body and continue moving forward. One of the most basic tactics to fighting is to close the distance on your opponent. The one advancing is in a better position to land her attacks, while the opponent is disadvantaged because she cannot extend the full reach of her attack, which lowers her attacking power. Sayaka, the one with the shorter weapon, would have been far safer going through Kyouko's spear attacks than when she backed off.
It's a little disappointing that the one with the longer ranged weapon is able to practice this concept better than the one with the weapon more suited to close range combat.
Sayaka's stance is also incorrect too. She should be standing sideways, with one of her shoulders facing front towards the opponent. The side stance is standard for minimizing the frontal area vulnerable to an attack.

It would be understandable if Kyouko won by keeping her distance. Her weapon has the greater range, so there's no way Sayaka can win a mid-range fight.
However, when Kyouko was able to defend herself and pressure Sayaka in close combat with a longer weapon, it just shows how unskilled Sayaka is at fighting and how her first Witch kill was just her being carried by her Puella Magi powers. Put the special powers aside, and Sayaka gets outclassed in every way, just like she did in this ep. She just does not know how to use a sword.

Well, why would she know how to use a sword, it's more or less her second time wielding one. While i am no big fan of Sayaka, her not being a sword expert is very understandable - in fact, it would be more weird if she did display amazing martial prowess with it. While her MG powers does grant her some aptitude with them (she can throw them with reasonable accuracy), her not being savvy about melee combat is the expected course of things. Especially when fighting against a weapon-user, not a badly animated color blob. Her being bad at it is the natural course of things - practice makes perfect, and she has had none. Kyoko (or anyone probably) dominating Sayaka in melee combat is to be expected at this point in time.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Decagon

And here I was wondering why the speculation thread went quiet again. Forgive me for jumping in. The problem I see here is that Sayaka was very surprised and angry at Kyoko's actions.

Well yes. That's a big part of my argument.

Sayaka would have similarly been surprised and angry if Kyubey had told her that there was another magical girl out there trying to hunt her down. And when Sayaka gets angry, she can make dangerous and rash decisions. Kyubey may very well have thought that if he told Sayaka about Kyoko and her plans, that Sayaka would then rush off to confront Kyoko.

And then the likelihood of magical girl infighting goes from "Likely, but might not happen if Kyoko changes her mind based on what Kyubey said to her" to "Almost complete certitude". Does that improve the overall situation any?

I certainly don't think so.

If she did not have her regenerative abilities, she would have been incapable of conducting her duties as a MG for three months because of Kyoko's first attack,

So? Kyubey was fully aware that Sayaka had regenerative abilities. Indeed, that could have factored into his decisions ('Hopefully Kyoko doesn't attack Sayaka, but if she does, at least Sayaka has regenerative abilities that should give her a decent chance of surviving the fight and coming out of it largely unscathed').

...and if Homura had not intervened, Kyubey's new MG would have been dead.

Not necessarily. Madoka might have become a magical girl on the spot, and saved her.

To use your analogy, what kind of shrewd supervisor would not want productive employees to remain healthy and productive? Kyubey did not try to prevent a conflict he had advanced notice of.

Are people even reading what I write? I've consistently argued that Kyubey did try to prevent a conflict that he had advanced notice of. Now, if you disagree with my interpretation there, then that's fine, but then tell me where you find fault with my interpretation. Don't just ignore it.

He did not tell her or Madoka a new MG had arrived the night before, nor did he mention that she should be careful about MGs attacking her. He could find Kyoko on his own, so it should be reasonable to say that he could have warned Sayaka to stay away from that area because Kyoko, who was willing to fight/kill Sayaka was already stalking that familiar.

Just to be clear: Are you saying that Kyubey should have told Sayaka to ignore this area, and the familiar in it, since another magical girl was stalking it?

Because if so, I can tell you right now what Sayaka's likely response to that is:

"Really? Cool! Can I meet this other magical girl?"

Well, that didn't help any, did it?

What you are saying about his warning Kyoko could also be used to question why he did not warn Sayaka--why didn't he make Sayaka have second thoughts about going out when there was clearly someone who wanted to chase her off? If Kyoko was going to kill her, why not encourage her to search somewhere Kyoko was not or even move to another city instead of wasting her potential as a MG?

Sayaka wouldn't want to move to another city. Her best friend, and the guy she clearly loves, is living in this city. You can be very sure that Sayaka would protest loudly at the idea of moving to another city.

If this was the case he could have relied on finding more altruistic MG candidates instead of ones who would be willing to maim or kill other MGs,

Decagon, even the best employee screening processes is going to allow a couple bad apples to come through.

Honestly, you are really nitpicking here.

Also, as you have brought up Batman again recently, how do you justify this comparison with a mascot that gives a payment in exchange for fighting witches? A hero fights crime for the sake of fighting crime and/or whatever is being villified, not because they will get something material in return.

You don't think that getting to be the ward of one of the world's richest men, and getting to use all sorts of wondrous high-tech gizmos and vehicles, is a type of payment in exchange for fighting crime?

Those Robins also get exceptionally good Butler service, I hear...

[Decagon]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well yes. That's a big part of my argument.

Sayaka would have similarly been surprised and angry if Kyubey had told her that there was another magical girl out there trying to hunt her down. And when Sayaka gets angry, she can make dangerous and rash decisions. Kyubey may very well have thought that if he told Sayaka about Kyoko and her plans, that Sayaka would then rush off to confront Kyoko.

And then the likelihood of magical girl infighting goes from "Likely, but might not happen if Kyoko changes her mind based on what Kyubey said to her" to "Almost complete certitude". Does that improve the overall situation any?

I certainly don't think so.

See, he told her about Homura as an unknown--but during the fight the closest one who could be a threat to Kyoko's plan was Madoka who QB had judged to have more potential than Mami. Wouldn't the threat of having MG Madoka being born in the middle of the fight have been a better deterrent? So rather than telling Sayaka "Someone more experienced than you is very likely going to try and kill you" or "A MG may try to take your life" he just sits there and watches her. He doesn't even try to give Sayaka any warning even though she is the one with the most to lose. Why would he keep her completely in the dark?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So? Kyubey was fully aware that Sayaka had regenerative abilities. Indeed, that could have factored into his decisions ('Hopefully Kyoko doesn't attack Sayaka, but if she does, at least Sayaka has regenerative abilities that should give her a decent chance of surviving the fight and coming out of it largely unscathed').

[Decagon quote]

Not necessarily. Madoka might have become a magical girl on the spot, and saved her.

This brings Kyubey back into the argument doesn't it? If he was fully aware Sayaka could withstand some attacks that wouldn't outright kill her, then the fight could be seen as a set up to push Madoka into a corner. And given Kyoko's decision during the fight to kill Sayaka (I'm sure her supposed regeneration does not surpass deathblows, as discussion of immortal MGs would have turned up in the story), I'm quite sure Sayaka would have died if there had been no intervention.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Are people even reading what I write? I've consistently argued that Kyubey did try to prevent a conflict that he had advanced notice of. Now, if you disagree with my interpretation there, then that's fine, but then tell me where you find fault with my interpretation. Don't just ignore it.

I didn't find your argument particularly compelling. There's a difference with preventing confrontation and preventing murder without getting caught in between, and he could definitely have been more proactive in keeping his MGs from reaching a situation where they kill each other, a situation that would necessitate (by his words) a MG to intervene. Rather, the situation that did arise from his action/inaction conveniently forced Madoka to almost become a MG.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Just to be clear: Are you saying that Kyubey should have told Sayaka to ignore this area, and the familiar in it, since another magical girl was stalking it?

Because if so, I can tell you right now what Sayaka's likely response to that is:

"Really? Cool! Can I meet this other magical girl?"

Well, that didn't help any, did it?

Sayaka wouldn't want to move to another city. Her best friend, and the guy she clearly loves, is living in this city. You can be very sure that Sayaka would protest loudly at the idea of moving to another city.

I'm sure she wouldn't want to die the day after having her wish granted. A situation that could have been remedied by QB telling her that Kyoko would be even less friendly, and even more threatening than Homura so she should stay clear of Kyoko. She ended up getting into a life-threatening situation with Kyoko because she would not accept letting familiars grow into witches (edit:If they did not fight, she would not have seen Kyoko let the familiar run, and would not have begun the argument resulting from the act conflicting with her idealistic MG views) and Sayaka declared her idealism, something which obviously clashed with Kyoko's beliefs astringently. The city is large by any standard, why couldn't Kyubey have kept them apart? He obviously had no trouble finding his MGs or candidates.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Decagon, even the best employee screening processes is going to allow a couple bad apples to come through.

Kyubey doesn't even have a screening process, and to me he comes off as selling (or perhaps buying with a wish) instead of employing.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Honestly, you are really nitpicking here.

Of course I am. It's a weekend.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You don't think that getting to be the ward of one of the world's richest men, and getting to use all sorts of wondrous high-tech gizmos and vehicles, is a type of payment in exchange for fighting crime?

Those Robins also get exceptionally good Butler service, I hear...

That is something I feel falls under the MG part of a MG contract. Bruce Wayne didn't tell his Robins that he wouldn't adopt them if they didn't want to risk their lives fighting crime, did he?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Decagon

See, he told her about Homura as an unknown--but during the fight the closest one who could be a threat to Kyoko's plan was Madoka who QB had judged to have more potential than Mami. Wouldn't the threat of having MG Madoka being born in the middle of the fight have been a better deterrent?

... You want Kyubey to tell Kyoko that there is another potential magical girl out there who could be a threat to her plan?

Decagon, with all due respect, that is an absolutely horrible idea.

Kyubey: It would be unwise for you to go after Sayaka. She has a friend with the potential to be a very powerful magical girl!

Kyoko: Oh yeah? Thanks a lot for giving me a heads up about her, Kyubey! I definitely want to kill her off too, then, before she can become that powerful magical girl. No way I want a more powerful magical girl than me out there! Now where can I find this potential magical girl, Kyubey?

So rather than telling Sayaka "Someone more experienced than you is very likely going to try and kill you" or "A MG may try to take your life" he just sits there and watches her.

Both of those statements would likely lead to Sayaka trying to confront that experienced magical girl. It would not help matters, imo.

He doesn't even try to give Sayaka any warning even though she is the one with the most to lose. Why would he keep her completely in the dark?

There's at least two good reasons:

1. Because Sayaka is quite likely to take counter-productive actions if she's told about Kyoko.

2. Because Kyoko might want to exact revenge on Kyubey if he gets in the way of her plans.

This brings Kyubey back into the argument doesn't it? If he was fully aware Sayaka could withstand some attacks that wouldn't outright kill her, then the fight could be seen as a set up to push Madoka into a corner.

If he's trying to set up a fight, then why would he offer up a reason for Kyoko to not get into that exact fight? In other words, why would he even hint at Homura's presence to Kyoko? Why would he risk dissuading Kyoko from getting into a fight with Sayaka, if his whole plan is for that fight to happen?

And given Kyoko's decision during the fight to kill Sayaka (I'm sure her supposed regeneration does not surpass deathblows, as discussion of immortal MGs would have turned up in the story),

Her supposed regeneration?

Decagon, she has regeneration. Period.

And now you're saying that just because the story hasn't yet brought up the idea of immortal MGs that we can completely rule out the idea that Sayaka's regeneration surpasses deathblows?

Well, by that rationale, I guess we can also rule out the idea that magical girls can turn into witches, since one would expect a discussion of that to have turned up in the story by now as well....

I didn't find your argument particularly compelling.

I don't find your arguments particularly compelling either, with all due respect.

There's a difference with preventing confrontation and preventing murder without getting caught in between, and he could definitely have been more proactive in keeping his MGs from reaching a situation where they kill each other, a situation that would necessitate (by his words) a MG to intervene.

Kyubey being "more proactive" may simply have worsened the situation. At least some of your suggestions would have actually made matters worse.

I'm sure she wouldn't want to die the day after having her wish granted.

Do you honestly think that Sayaka would leave her best friend Madoka, and the boy that she loved so much that her one big wish was made for him, on the mere threat of a more experiened magical girl coming after her?

That's not at all in keeping with Sayaka's established characterization.

The city is large by any standard, why couldn't Kyubey have kept them apart?

The whole reason why Kyoko went after Sayaka is because Sayaka is now in territory that Kyoko is laying a claim to. As long as Sayaka is within any part of that territory, Kyoko's motivation here remains.

Now, if Sayaka moves out of that territory, she might simply end up in the territory of a different magical girl. Another magical girl who might not take kindly to a new magical girl in town.

That is something I feel falls under the MG part of a MG contract. Bruce Wayne didn't tell his Robins that he wouldn't adopt them if they didn't want to risk their lives fighting crime, did he?

Well, there are different Batman continuities. In at least some of them, you only get to be be Bruce Wayne's ward if you agree to become Batman's Robin.

[SagaraSouske]

Evil is a difficult concept and may mean different things to different people. Although there are some universal acts that are considered evil, there are different philosophies that give different definition to the term. In the context of this show, I would consider QB to be evil. Even though his full motive is not yet clear, what is crystal clear is that the only thing that interests him is contracting MGs, without caring one bit about the fate of MGs that he contracts.

It is also shown that his intent wasn't to fight witches. That's merely an excuse to contract MGs. He doesn't care if MGs fights among each other or whether or not MGs successfully dispatch witches or save the people marked by the witches. I think his actions goes beyond being amoral and merely performing his job/duty as a contractor. If one was given a job to murder others or rape others, can being amoral or just doing a job be a defense for performing such acts? QB is fully aware each contract is a death sentence and the fate of each girl he seeks out to contract with may be worse then death itself. Yet, he manipulates situations, coerces, possibly creates scenarios that pushes the girls towards accepting the contract despite claiming that he is not allowed to do so.

~

On the subject of Sayaka, as several already mentioned, her motive to become a MG is mostly selfish. Yes she doesn't want Kamijo to suffer and wants him to get back his normal hands and be able to play violin again. But more importantly, she doesn't want him to hate her and secretly desire to be his GF. So even her wish to cure him is not entirely for his sake but for her own sake. There is nothing wrong for her to do that as she is acting like many normal human beings would. She is definitely not becoming MG for the nonsense she said about justice, protecting people from witches, etc. The way she asked for her wish and the nature of the wish will become her undoing.

The way Kamijo behaved seems to lead people to have a false sense of security that everything regarding him, Sayaka's wish and their relationship turned out alright. I think it will turn really ugly very soon and Kamijo will be the instrument that causes Sayaka's demise, which is most likely due to QB's not entirely granting the wish the way Sayaka thought it would be.

[guuchan]

For those of you who believe that the ED is in Homura's perspective (I would be interested to hear the reason if someone believes otherwise), this post might shed some light on you and your heated discussion.

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Kyubey: It would be unwise for you to go after Sayaka. She has a friend with the potential to be a very powerful magical girl!

Kyoko: Oh yeah? Thanks a lot for giving me a heads up about her, Kyubey! I definitely want to kill her off too, then, before she can become that powerful magical girl. No way I want a more powerful magical girl than me out there! Now where can I find this potential magical girl, Kyubey?

That's baseless assumption. We never know how strong Madoka is anyway.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

There's at least two good reasons:

1. Because Sayaka is quite likely to take counter-productive actions if she's told about Kyoko.

2. Because Kyoko might want to exact revenge on Kyubey if he gets in the way of her plans.

That's just making things deep...>_> Please take things simple.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If he's trying to set up a fight, then why would he offer up a reason for Kyoko to not get into that exact fight? In other words, why would he even hint at Homura's presence to Kyoko? Why would he risk dissuading Kyoko from getting into a fight with Sayaka, if his whole plan is for that fight to happen?

There is an obvious reason. Because it doesn't matter anyway. Telling about Homura to Kyoko whatever doesn't do anything significant to the situation comes after or Kyuube's supposed schemes.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Her supposed regeneration?

Decagon, she has regeneration. Period.

And now you're saying that just because the story hasn't yet brought up the idea of immortal MGs that we can completely rule out the idea that Sayaka's regeneration surpasses deathblows?

Well, by that rationale, I guess we can also rule out the idea that magical girls can turn into witches, since one would expect a discussion of that to have turned up in the story by now as well....

It will be 'supposed regeneration' until this series finishes, since nothing is accurate in current position.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Do you honestly think that Sayaka would leave her best friend Madoka, and the boy that she loved so much that her one big wish was made for him, on the mere threat of a more experiened magical girl coming after her?

That's not at all in keeping with Sayaka's established characterization.

Character can change at any-time.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, there are different Batman continuities. In at least some of them, you only get to be be Bruce Wayne's ward if you agree to become Batman's Robin.

Example does not necessarily need to be entirely identical to the topic.

[Decagon]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

... You want Kyubey to tell Kyoko that there is another potential magical girl out there who could be a threat to her plan?

Decagon, with all due respect, that is an absolutely horrible idea.

Kyubey: It would be unwise for you to go after Sayaka. She has a friend with the potential to be a very powerful magical girl!

Kyoko: Oh yeah? Thanks a lot for giving me a heads up about her, Kyubey! I definitely want to kill her off too, then, before she can become that powerful magical girl. No way I want a more powerful magical girl than me out there! Now where can I find this potential magical girl, Kyubey?

Look back at that quote and note that I never said he should warn her about Sayaka's friend. Much in the same way he was ambiguous about Homura, he could have been ambiguous about Madoka.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

There's at least two good reasons:

1. Because Sayaka is quite likely to take counter-productive actions if she's told about Kyoko.

2. Because Kyoko might want to exact revenge on Kyubey if he gets in the way of her plans.

You assume that someone who spent so much time wondering if she should spend the rest of her life facing danger for the sake of a boy she was in love with would run headlong into a fight she was outclassed for? She was trembling at the prospect of having to just go on patrol; why wouldn't she be more cautious about someone actively trying to harm her?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If he's trying to set up a fight, then why would he offer up a reason for Kyoko to not get into that exact fight? In other words, why would he even hint at Homura's presence to Kyoko? Why would he risk dissuading Kyoko from getting into a fight with Sayaka, if his whole plan is for that fight to happen?

If he wanted to warn her about Homura, why didn't he say "Oh, and that strong magical girl I warned you about is friendly with and stalking someone who always accompanies that new MG I told you about!"

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Her supposed regeneration?

Decagon, she has regeneration. Period.

And now you're saying that just because the story hasn't yet brought up the idea of immortal MGs that we can completely rule out the idea that Sayaka's regeneration surpasses deathblows?

Well, by that rationale, I guess we can also rule out the idea that magical girls can turn into witches, since one would expect a discussion of that to have turned up in the story by now as well....

Yes, I'm of the opinion that one cannot regenerate from death. That is a speculation because we only observed her recovering from debilitating wounds and not an injury that would kill her. She would probably have a hard time using magic if she were dead, but I'm sure Kyubey would have love it if some of his MGs were immortal.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Kyubey being "more proactive" may simply have worsened the situation. At least some of your suggestions would have actually made matters worse.

Do you honestly think that Sayaka would leave her best friend Madoka, and the boy that she loved so much that her one big wish was made for him, on the mere threat of a more experiened magical girl coming after her?

That's not at all in keeping with Sayaka's established characterization.

Do I think Sayaka would? I think Sayaka would if you think Kyoko would be the kind of person to kill someone. Do you think Kyoko would kill Sayaka's boyfriend or best friend if it was easier? You seem to think she is capable of killing a non-MG Madoka from the hypothetical you gave earlier. I think that would keep with Kyoko's established characterization.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The whole reason why Kyoko went after Sayaka is because Sayaka is now in territory that Kyoko is laying a claim to. As long as Sayaka is within any part of that territory, Kyoko's motivation here remains.

Now, if Sayaka moves out of that territory, she might simply end up in the territory of a different magical girl. Another magical girl who might not take kindly to a new magical girl in town.

I'm sure Kyoko must have left a clean vacancy as Kyubey was otherwise preoccupied.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, there are different Batman continuities. In at least some of them, you only get to be be Bruce Wayne's ward if you agree to become Batman's Robin.

A Robin for every occasion then. For some reason, this reminds me of the anime law of realized Ranma 1/2 fanfiction crossovers converging with the number of total fictional series at infinity.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Well, why would she know how to use a sword, it's more or less her second time wielding one. While i am no big fan of Sayaka, her not being a sword expert is very understandable - in fact, it would be more weird if she did display amazing martial prowess with it. While her MG powers does grant her some aptitude with them (she can throw them with reasonable accuracy), her not being savvy about melee combat is the expected course of things. Especially when fighting against a weapon-user, not a badly animated color blob. Her being bad at it is the natural course of things - practice makes perfect, and she has had none. Kyoko (or anyone probably) dominating Sayaka in melee combat is to be expected at this point in time.

Oh, no, I'm not complaining about the writing. As you said, she is inexperienced, and SHAFT did a great job of portraying that. I dislike Sayaka because of her character, not because she's poorly written. She honestly thought she would be okay and better off than Mami just because she defeated her first witch with ease. That overconfidence annoys me, especially when I thought Mami's death would humble her a little.

I don't support Kyouko's ideals, but at this point I'm cheering her on to knock down Sayaka's ego.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by applejuice

That's baseless assumption. We never know how strong Madoka is anyway.

You're being a bit disingenuous. We have been told over and over that Madoka has a huge amount of magical potential, greater than anyone else we know currently.

That's just making things deep...>_> Please take things simple.

A great many people here have theories more complex than this. Hell, we've been arguing to keep things simple, such as that Kyube isn't evil, more amoral than anything else.

Character can change at any-time.

Not without good reason.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Oh, no, I'm not complaining about the writing. As you said, she is inexperienced, and SHAFT did a great job of portraying that. I dislike Sayaka because of her character, not because she's poorly written. She honestly thought she would be okay and better off than Mami just because she defeated her first witch with ease. That overconfidence annoys me, especially when I thought Mami's death would humble her a little.

I don't support Kyouko's ideals, but at this point I'm cheering her on to knock down Sayaka's ego.

Curious, why do you believe this when there is no evidence to even suggest it?

Hell, many people here have argued that being an MG is a death sentence or slavery. And yet Sayaka chose to become one with full knowledge of that, in order to make her friend happy. Would you really mock someone who chose to die for you? If so, it says more about you, then it does about the person you're "cheering" against.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Curious, why do you believe this when there is no evidence to even suggest it?

Hell, many people here have argued that being an MG is a death sentence or slavery. And yet Sayaka chose to become one with full knowledge of that, in order to make her friend happy. Would you really mock someone who chose to die for you? If so, it says more about you, then it does about the person you're "cheering" against.

A character is made up of more than just their intentions. There are villains who act for the sake of others, and there are also "good" guys who help others with only their self interest in mind.

It's not like the Puella Magi are fighting for everyone's sake. As Homura said before, they fight for their own wishes. Sayaka became a Puella Magi for Kyousuke's healing, not because she has a duty to protect every single life -- that is secondary.

However, Sayaka picks a fight with Kyouko because of her idea to protect people in general. That is different from what she wished for, and that is an entirely different matter that she has to prepare for.
In the meantime, the familiar is escaping and possibly harming other people. If Sayaka really cared about other people that much, she would have put her pride aside and went around Kyouko instead of wasting time trying to fight her. She is not committed to protecting the general public, despite what she says.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

However, Sayaka picks a fight with Kyouko because of her idea to protect people in general. That is different from what she wished for, and that is an entirely different matter that she has to prepare for.
In the meantime, the familiar is escaping and possibly harming other people. If Sayaka really cared about other people that much, she would have put her pride aside and went around Kyouko instead of wasting time trying to fight her. She is not committed to protecting the general public, despite what she says.

What makes you think Kyoko would have let her? Remember, Kyoko told her outright not to kill familiars and let them grow into witches.

In order to believe that Sayaka could have gone after the familiar, you'd have to believe that Kyoko wasn't intent on stealing the territory, and wouldn't have tried to stop Sayaka from killing the familiar... which is blatantly contradicted when Kyoko did stop Sayak from killing it.

In short, Sayaka already knew what most of figured out: there would be no killing of the familiar unless Kyoko was gone, which is why Sayaka attacked.

[Himeji]

Ok, let's recapitulate the things we got to know in ep. 5:

• Kyuubee touches girls with his rabbit-like ears to turn them into magical girls
• Magical girls have differently coloured eggs (soulgems). Mami had a golden one, Sayaka has a sky-blue one and Kyouko had as blood-red one.
• The wish of a magical girl directly influences their powers, e.g. Sayaka wished for someone to be healed and thus has great self-healing powers. This might be connected to the colour of the girl's eggs.
• Still no real proof that Kyuubee is any more than a door-to-door salesman selling contracts to girls, so the "Kyuubee is evil" theory is still as baseless as before.
• Yet more proof that Homura isn't one of the good guys girls: she flat-out refuses Madoka's plea for help, and also she said it's stupid to fight witches to help other people.
• Again, Homura watched a fight (this time between Sayaka and Kyouko) from the sidelines. If it wouldn't have been for Madoka being about to become a magical girl, Homura wouldn't have intervened and would've had no problem with seeing Sayaka being completely trashed or even killed.
• We get to know where witches come from. Magical girls don't turn into witches (which was ludicrous in the first place), but instead familiars become witches when they consume weak people.
• Confirmation that fighting familiars doesn't give grief seeds, only fighting witches. This is why Kyouko let the familiar escape, so it can prey on a weak person and become a witch.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

In addition to what Triple R said, I'm of the opinion that Kyube is merely a "robot" in that he was created for a specific purpose, without much in the way of emotions. So it's possible he's not showing them simply because he wasn't programmed with them. Stuffed animals generally hold the same expression regardless of they are thinking.

That doesn't sound too far off, actually. This far he hasn't shown any real emotions or evil intentions, so he might well be a robot or stuffed animal animated with magic. Then again, his static face might just be the animation studio pulling a cheap one and by foregoing any facial expressions or animations for Kyuubee

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Himeji

That doesn't sound too far off, actually. This far he hasn't shown any real emotions or evil intentions, so he might well be a robot or stuffed animal animated with magic. Then again, his static face might just be the animation studio pulling a cheap one and by foregoing any facial expressions or animations for Kyuubee

Of course, given that, I can understand why people get the creepy vibes, even if they can't articulate it. We humans read facial expressions on a subconscious level. When something acts and talks like a sentient being, but there are no emotions displayed, it unnerves us; it's not something we are used to, and because we can't read the individual, we become afraid. It's a natural reaction, because being able to read someone is a survival mechanism.

On a subconscious level, "fight or flight" is activated, and people lash out by trying to destroy the individual. That's why people would generally tend to call Kyube evil. I mean, I feel the creepy vibes, too, but looked inside myself to analyze why and do a little research. There is an impulse there to strike out, to destroy, belittle, or otherwise render the target impotent. But by recognizing the bias formed by preconceived survival notions, I can work around it.

It could very well be that the writers made him that way to evoke those feelings, but time will tell as to whether they meant it as a sign, or as a way to fuck with the viewers. If it's a sign, then it is a very obvious one. If it's just a way to fuck with me, well, I am prepared for the possibility so I can't be fucked with any longer.

[Seihai]

Am I the only one who thinks that only witches and their familiars are actually evil? There's hints for Kyubei but I'm still unsure how to judge him. Kyoko just has a wicked personality and as for Homerun... baseball players can't be evil, see Level E!

[Sanger Zonvolt]

Decent enough episode, I caught that little bit a recycled animation, but didn't bother me much.

Kyoko has the coolest weapon yet I have to say, depending on how long she lives, I could see her becoming one of my favorites, as I always like a psycho killer bitch, I really hope she stays unredeemable to fit into the context of this series' tone.

Homura continues to have the nice nihilist view that I enjoy in that kind of character, even when she becomes an ally of Madoka I hope she keeps the same type of personality.

8/10

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Vanish

Am I the only one who thinks that only witches and their familiars are actually evil?

I'm sure you're not the only one, but to me, they seem more like animals hunting their natural preys (humans). At least, that's what their behavior and Kyoko's words imply. I don't see anything inherently evil about them (for now).