Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Khu

Are all the H scenes so sudden as in the Fate route >_>

That was like "Woah healing. Okay. WAIT WHAT THE-"

Oh, you're playing, Khu?

Don't worry, the other H-scenes in the game are easier to see coming. The Saber-rape one really is sudden, though, I agree.

[willyvereb]

Well, actually considering Caster it isn't as surprising
Also right you will see the other H-scenes coming. They won't be so sudden.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Well, actually considering Caster it isn't as surprising

Actually, Caster's little backstory is in UBW... Saber-rape is the first time you hear about the mana transfer process... it's a bit, ah, jarring.

[MonkeyDude]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

He was made an Archer for the same reason that Lancer was made a Lancer, even though he was more known for beserking than using the gae bolg. Or for the same reason Rider was a Rider. As far as I can tell, going from by the description of the classes,


It doesn't even seem that the weapon they use actually affects what class they are. Besides, from my faint memory of the Epic of Gilgamesh, we don't really get to see how he fights, except that he wrestled with Enkikdu.

Also, the thing is, in the Nasuverse, apparently some people are able of achieving inhumanly specs through sheer training and without reinforcement. Example, Tohno Shiki. There's on way he's using reinforcement magic during Tsukihime, yet he still pulls off some impressive feats, like killing Nero's 999 beast form. And yes, he has MEoDP, but that doesn't do anything for his actual physical stats. Or, look at Kotomine from Fate/Zero, where he literally uproots a tree through sheer upper body strength.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. Isn't a tad bit too coincidental that Cu Chulainn's most famous weapon is the Gae Bolg, Arturia is also most known by her Excalibur (well to be fair, she is fated to be Saber regardless), Medea has divine blood that allows her to use the God's magic, and Assassin just so happens to be the same dude but different incarnations of him? I mean yeah sure the overall personality and characteristics is also a factor in all of this, but I think their weapons take precedence. The heroes chosen to participate seem to affect which class they belong to (with the exception of the 4/5th Sabers and True Assassin). Emiya is stuck as an archer even though he can probably be a Saber, Heracles just drew the short end of the stick and became a Berserker when he probably could have been an Archer if I got my lore right, Cu Chulainn has his lance/spear so it just seemed fitting for him to become a Lancer, and Medusa probably became a Rider due to her Pegasus (though it doesn't seem like she fits any other class than Berserker).

As for the Shiki/Nero fight, I think we can probably see the parallels between it and the Gil/Shirou fight. Shiki's "reinforcement" magic so to speak is his alternate persona that is nigh superhuman against those that are inhuman. You seem to have forgotten how the fight with Nero went as they both charged at each other; Nero blind with rage as he couldn't fathom why his instincts were telling him to retreat from a mere human. He managed to destroy the very concept that is Nero Chaos, while on the brink of death post battle. He never overwhelmed Nero in the slightest as his superhuman charged body, due to his alternate assassin persona, easily ripped through his lesser beasts; with Nero foolishly gathering his entire being into a single collective that made it that much easier for Shiki to kill. Remember that he saw hundreds of dots that made up his chaos, each being its own entity. His ultimate form led to his very defeat, made the fight that much more awesome imo.

Gil/Shirou fight on the other hand...the sword swings itself! Mind hax, I steal your UBW Emiya! I caught Gil off-guard...chance!

And yes, I am a Tsukihime fanboy

[Khu]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Oh, you're playing, Khu?

Don't worry, the other H-scenes in the game are easier to see coming. The Saber-rape one really is sudden, though, I agree.

Yup.

I am playing.

considering that I've meant to for like, that past few months. XD

[willyvereb]

@Monkey Dude:

Spoiler for Tsukihime:

That two is completely different. Nero was caught off-guard at that moment and Shiki had a Servant-skilled homicidical alternate personality. Plus he had MEoDP, the haxest power of all the time. And also Nero wasn't much skilled in fight as his conciousness was almost lost in the sea of beasts he absorbed. And while beasts are pretty dangerous they can be beaten by especially skilful humans(I mean the normal ones. The magical beasts are quite neat opponents, though the surprise of MEoDP and some ingeniuty can help.

In contrast Servants are completely superhuman. They can be only beaten if they caught off-guard(which happens quite rarely). For Shirou to(realistically) beat Gil he needs to have another trumph card besides UBW chant. He needs to catch completely off-guard Gil. As his fighting skills are nowhere near to do this I think the only way is for Shirou to have another truph card which he obviously didn't have. In short Gil's got a noticeable PIS(Plot-Inducted Stupidity) to make him unable to just brush off Shirou's melee attacks. That's what happened there. the use of PIS is quite common in stories when the writer doesn't thinks out the characters actions well or faces a crisis where the plot wouldn't go the way he/she wants because the character normally wouldn't act like that. It's a kind of writing error though in fainter cases we can overlook it.
The thing why it annoys me because there could've been much much better ideas to find a way to defeat Gil, but Nasu stubbornly wanted to overglorify Shirou by destroying Gilgamesh's character somehow.

Perhaps Nasu isn't a godly writer, he's good at thinking out backgrounds of stories and else, but he also makes errors at times. The thing why it especially irritates me because after that everyone states the impossibility that Shirou beats Gilgamesh anytime. Archer fans really love to do this to prove Archer is better than Gilgamesh and so on and so on... while it was out of pure luck, nerfs and PIS. If we have to put it statistically: 0.01% chance to happen that way.

I don't want Gil to win or being shown as godly, but Nasu shouldn't have degraded him into a clown in the last fight just to give Shirou a victory. He should've thinked out a way where Shirou defeats Gil with some tricky tactics or by teaming up with Archer to make the GAR band. I simply just don't like when the characters gets degraded for the sake of some development. A writer should keep them as they are and try to think out a way he/she doesn't have to use PIS or any other similar tools to progress the story.

[orangejuicetang]

First, for MonkeyDude.

Cu Chulainn most famous weapon is gae bolg, but his ríastrad or warp spasm which was a beserker rage that literally transformed his body. If you count the number of times that he went into ríastrad versus the times he used gae bolg, the difference is overwhelming. I think he only actually used Gae Bolg twice during his entire life. If you go to a person who hasn't read fate/stay night and has still heard of him and asked him what he was most famous for, you sure as hell wouldn't get gae bolg. Also, Hercules could have been any freakin class except Caster. It was mentioned in his status screen. Since when does Medea have divine blood in her? Being from the age of the gods =/= having the blood of the gods. If she had divine blood, she'd have a divinity subclass.

Next, in general.
As far as I can tell, his alternate personality, Nanaya, is just superhumanly skilled. He still doesn't get any boost to his physical capabilities. If you even really want to continue comparing, the momentum from Chaos's 999th beast form should have still left Shiki splattered across the entire park. Also remember that DAA are fairly close to Servants. Nasu stated that in a battle between the DAA and the Servants, it would be a really close fight but the Servants would have a slight advantage.

Once again, why do you keep ignoring Gilgamesh's biggest flaw, his arrogance? First, we don't have any idea how good or bad a swordsman Gilgamesh is. he's never shown to be a swordsman in his original myth either. Also, Gilgamesh's most prized treasure, the weapons in his GoB, was ridiculed and challenged by a mere faker mongrel. And your expecting him to be thinking clearly here? And once again, if it was shown all the way back in Fate that the weapons can move on their own to attack, why are you suddenly deciding that inside UBW, it's impossible for them to do that? If your calling this PIS, then literally all the routes were decided by PIS just because Gilgamesh lost. Gilgamesh vs Saber? Gilgamesh would have won if he didn't let Saber goad him into using Ea early. And oh wait, why doesn't Gilgamesh just retreat when he sees Saber activate Avalon and just wait it out? Why doesn't he use Enkikidu more often against Saber? Or Gilgamesh vs Dark Sakura. Why doesn't Gilgamesh use GoB longer until there's nothing left? Why does Gilgamesh feel the need to go forward and check if she's dead instead of just walking away? Why doesn't Gilgamesh just Ea the shit out of her? Even a low-powered Ea would have had more than enough power to obliterate her.

And finally, what's this about Archer being better than Gilgamesh? The way I see it, it can almost be compared to rock-paper-scissors. Gilgamesh is rock, every other Servant is scissors, and Archer is paper if he get UBW deployed. That's the entire thing about Archer being Gilgamesh's natural enemy.

[Altima of the Gates]

And yes, I am a Tsukihime fanboy

Well, that pretty much puts your argument into perspective.

Shiki's "reinforcement" magic so to speak is his alternate persona that is nigh superhuman against those that are inhuman. You seem to have forgotten how the fight with Nero went as they both charged at each other;

Which still doesn't make a bit of sense to me, since he hasn't trained in nearly a decade and those abilities should have atrophied greatly in that time. A more centered/calculating state of mind, yes, but his reflexes, reaction time, the spring of his muscles, and his speed shouldn't be as great as they are.

The thing why it especially irritates me because after that everyone states the impossibility that Shirou beats Gilgamesh anytime. Archer fans really love to do this to prove Archer is better than Gilgamesh and so on and so on... while it was out of pure luck, nerfs and PIS. If we have to put it statistically: 0.01% chance to happen that way.

I don't want Gil to win or being shown as godly, but Nasu shouldn't have degraded him into a clown in the last fight just to give Shirou a victory. He should've thinked out a way where Shirou defeats Gil with some tricky tactics or by teaming up with Archer to make the GAR band. I simply just don't like when the characters gets degraded for the sake of some development. A writer should keep them as they are and try to think out a way he/she doesn't have to use PIS or any other similar tools to progress the story.

We the big issue here, besides the retarded Archer fanboys is that Gil is a clown. He really is. It takes someone to kick him in the teeth for him to get his act together, and its a part of his core personality. His arrogance is his greatest weakness and keeps him from being better than what he is. Sure he can curb stomp people regularly, but he just won't get over himself to do it. Its just his nature to be so fatally egotistical. The fact that he was more mature when he was younger is an embarrassment.

[willyvereb]

@orangejuicetang: Yeah, the superhuman abilities are somehow wrong, though we can explain the superhuman skills by the counterforce. The counterforce is probably responsible for humans possessing special abilities. It's one of it's indirect ways to solve problems regarding the safety of the world. So the Nanayas are gained double personality with superhuman learning capability from it or something like that. Though now if I remember it it's still dubious. As the beasts were all over him and he was about to be eaten by them. I doubt he can cut his way out from a situation like that even by all-killing slashes and superhuman skills. It's a miracle he didn't died there. So, yeah it was a abit similar error though at least Nero didn't get any kind of PIS.

And you obviously still don't get it. Superhuman reflexes with excellent fighting experience= seeing through every move Shirou makes. And even if not as by some luck the sword's memory activates and it swings in an excellent way there's still the obvious difference in speed and strenght. Also even if Shirou can swing in a perfect way his strategy was a way too straightforward to be not noticed by Gil and being prepared for that. Despite that Gil seemed surprised there and even cornered...totally impossible considering the obvious differences. No matter how arrogant he is, he still values his life and also even if he holds back big time he still has his reflexes, senses and experiences and he also can take a gear up if he feels himself cornered. PIS in great amount accompanied by nerf.

[Altima of the Gates]

An obvious difference in power and experience doesn't matter if you don't acknowledge your opponent as a threat and act accordingly. Even when he can see the spells Shirou is using he's all "Ha, thats all? Come forward if you think that'll do you any good." Again, his arrogance is fatal.

Even in the heat of his battle with Shirou, he's all, "How dare he try to contest with me in sword flinging? Those inferior copies of his piss me off." Even a master can be toppled if he cannot see through his own hubris. No one is immune from this.

If he didn't look down on people so much, he'd be fine.

[willyvereb]

Yeah we know. If he wouldn't look down on people so much it would be fin...what? It would be really bad as he would, like Iskander would want to conquer the present world...and considering his personality there's hardly a way to make him stop....

But right, he underestimated Shirou big time, but when he needs to protect himself he still has his physical abilities and even if he looks down on Shirou he still calculates the enemy's every move as he does usually. Nasu stated in once that Gilgamesh elavulate everyone with quite a precision and uses power according to the threat...perhaps few things like Avalon's true power and UBW(and also Sakura's unbelievable big compatibility and strong connection with the Grail), bt usually he uses his power according to that. Like as he didn't charge Hercules, despite him being somehow a worthy opponent because it wouldn't be wise. Instead he swordrained him and forced him to protect Illya with his body.
But in Shirou's case there isn't much reason to swing and move with just human speeds and strenght. There's no way he would be cornered by Shirou's melee strikes or being injured either. But it happened as Nasu nerfed him and give him a bucketload of PIS.
First of all it's quite strange that Gilgamesh almost pushed away his desire to get Saber in favor to prove his treasures' worth. Gilgamesh was somehow close to indifferent to the success of his plan and also to chase Saber at Ryoudo Temple...another weird thing.
Also his fixation to prove his weapons' worth is weird somehow too...not it's existence but the extends he's willing to go to prove it.

[orangejuicetang]

How experienced is Gilgamesh at fighting, really? Because nearly all of his battles have been one-sided dominating battles. And yeah, Altima pretty much nailed it with this.

Even in the heat of his battle with Shirou, he's all, "How dare he try to contest with me in sword flinging? Those inferior copies of his piss me off." Even a master can be toppled if he cannot see through his own hubris. No one is immune from

I don't think your quite understanding how the sword swing by itself works. It's swinging itself the way it was swung by it's original wielder. For example, if the original wielder was Saber, then the sword swings itself as hard and as fast as Saber swung it in the past.

Besides, the counterforce doesn't work like that. It doesn't really give a shit about all the DAA and inhumans. All it cares about are direct threats to humanity. So unless the DAA's decide to begin a human genocide campaign, the counterforce isn't going to step in. People with special abilities are just born that way. It's complete luck, or mostly luck. The counterforce doesn't just randomly give a few souls random abilities each generation. What the counterforce can do is make a contract with a human, but that's only if the human has something the counterforce wants/is someone the counterforce thinks would make a good counterguardian. Or, the counterforce also does give one human a random power boost, but that's only when there's a threat to humanity as a whole. An example of this one is Jeanne de Arc according to the type moon wiki. The nanaya's got/kept their abilities by breeding it. And when I say breeding, I mean selective incest.

*He didn't consider Hercules a worthy opponent though. He didn't even put on his armor for him. He even said how disappointed he was with him, like "I was expecting something as a fellow demi-god, but this is pointless". He doesn't even consider Hercules as a worthy opponent. And as for him swordraining him, he probably would have swordrained him anyway even if he did feel Hercules was somewhat worthy. Because swordrain seems to be Gilgamesh's strategy of choice. Since when does Gilgamesh charge at anyone when he can swordrain instead?

[Altima of the Gates]

Yeah we know. If he wouldn't look down on people so much it would be fin...what? It would be really bad as he would, like Iskander would want to conquer the present world...and considering his personality there's hardly a way to make him stop....

Oh i know, I meant it'd be good for him, not the planet and the rest of humanity. We'd have a very short story in this case.

*He didn't consider Hercules a worthy opponent though. He didn't even put on his armor for him. He even said how disappointed he was with him, like "I was expecting something as a fellow demi-god, but this is pointless". He doesn't even consider Hercules as a worthy opponent.

True, but then he became afraid when Heracles got uncomfortably close and the sword raining wasn't stopping him, so he used the Chain of Heaven, which Heracles then broke. Seriously, not even a "Well done?" Gil was such a douchebag. Don't even get me started on Ilya.

[MonkeyDude]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

First, for MonkeyDude.

Cu Chulainn most famous weapon is gae bolg, but his ríastrad or warp spasm which was a beserker rage that literally transformed his body. If you count the number of times that he went into ríastrad versus the times he used gae bolg, the difference is overwhelming. I think he only actually used Gae Bolg twice during his entire life. If you go to a person who hasn't read fate/stay night and has still heard of him and asked him what he was most famous for, you sure as hell wouldn't get gae bolg. Also, Hercules could have been any freakin class except Caster. It was mentioned in his status screen. Since when does Medea have divine blood in her? Being from the age of the gods =/= having the blood of the gods. If she had divine blood, she'd have a divinity subclass.

But Heracles was already the Berserker, so it seemed fitting for Cu Chulainn to be the Lancer with his Gae Bolg. At the very least, the games that come from that side of the world seem to associate him with Gae Bolg if we go with Persona 3. Gae Bolg itself is a rather popular weapon and guess who is naturally associated with it. As for Medea, yeah I got that wrong and incorrectly assumed she had divine blood due to her relationship to Circe. Well at least she was a priestess of Hecate, who is conveniently associated with magic and witches.

Next, in general.
As far as I can tell, his alternate personality, Nanaya, is just superhumanly skilled. He still doesn't get any boost to his physical capabilities. If you even really want to continue comparing, the momentum from Chaos's 999th beast form should have still left Shiki splattered across the entire park. Also remember that DAA are fairly close to Servants. Nasu stated that in a battle between the DAA and the Servants, it would be a really close fight but the Servants would have a slight advantage.

I think that a fully unleashed "Nanaya Mode" is equal to that of a Shiki with his limiter released. I mean I'm going with the manga here (illustrations do wonders) and he pulled off some superhuman acrobatics. It's best not to think too much about 'lulz anime physics' and just enjoy the show. Nasu says a lot of things, but I take them with a grain of salt until I see it in writing. I know that his word is basically law concerning his universe, but I'd like to see it in an official work first for clarification.

Once again, why do you keep ignoring Gilgamesh's biggest flaw, his arrogance? First, we don't have any idea how good or bad a swordsman Gilgamesh is. he's never shown to be a swordsman in his original myth either. Also, Gilgamesh's most prized treasure, the weapons in his GoB, was ridiculed and challenged by a mere faker mongrel. And your expecting him to be thinking clearly here? And once again, if it was shown all the way back in Fate that the weapons can move on their own to attack, why are you suddenly deciding that inside UBW, it's impossible for them to do that? If your calling this PIS, then literally all the routes were decided by PIS just because Gilgamesh lost. Gilgamesh vs Saber? Gilgamesh would have won if he didn't let Saber goad him into using Ea early. And oh wait, why doesn't Gilgamesh just retreat when he sees Saber activate Avalon and just wait it out? Why doesn't he use Enkikidu more often against Saber? Or Gilgamesh vs Dark Sakura. Why doesn't Gilgamesh use GoB longer until there's nothing left? Why does Gilgamesh feel the need to go forward and check if she's dead instead of just walking away? Why doesn't Gilgamesh just Ea the shit out of her? Even a low-powered Ea would have had more than enough power to obliterate her.

Arrogance can only explain so much before you have to wonder why he got overwhelmed so badly. He could obliterated Shirou in the blink of an eye and yet he still let himself get overwhelmed like that. His arrogance is the main factor of his defeat, but it doesn't do much to explain the ridiculousness that is the fight. Can you cite me a source as to weapons being able to move on their own to attack? I mean it probably happened, but I honestly don't remember it. Getting a bit off tangent there since everything is dictated by plot, but would it kill Nasu to have it make sense to some degree? I just want a decent explanation to certain things (such as Gil/Shirou fight and Emiya being alive after all that), and what has been offered thus far hasn't satisfied me in the slightest. Gil getting overwhelmed to such a degree when he could have just "use GoB longer until there's nothing left" is something I want explained and no I won't take plot as an explanation

Oh and I only want an explanation after he got his arm cut off. You would think he would have pulled out all the stops after that happened. I welcome being proven wrong since I'm too lazy to recheck the text

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Well, that pretty much puts your argument into perspective.

Yeah my entire point is invalidated because I admitted such a thing. Are you trying to troll me or something?

Which still doesn't make a bit of sense to me, since he hasn't trained in nearly a decade and those abilities should have atrophied greatly in that time. A more centered/calculating state of mind, yes, but his reflexes, reaction time, the spring of his muscles, and his speed shouldn't be as great as they are.

He also has an anemic body and is

Spoiler for tsukihime spoilers, don't click if you haven't read tsukihime in its entirety:

Spoiler for another one just in case:

also operating on half a life force supplied by Akiha.

He shouldn't have been able to do the things he did in Tsukihime, yet he somehow did. Let's chalk this one up to protagonist hax.

We the big issue here, besides the retarded Archer fanboys is that Gil is a clown. He really is. It takes someone to kick him in the teeth for him to get his act together, and its a part of his core personality. His arrogance is his greatest weakness and keeps him from being better than what he is. Sure he can curb stomp people regularly, but he just won't get over himself to do it. Its just his nature to be so fatally egotistical. The fact that he was more mature when he was younger is an embarrassment.

His very arrogance allowed him to overcome the taint of the grail, a feat no other servant is capable of (maybe Assassin or Emiya I guess). He can curb stomp people whenever he damn well feels like it (Saber is an exception I suppose), but his arrogance always get in the way. I guess that is Nasu's way of nerfing an otherwise severely overpowered character in FSN just so he won't ruin the plot. Kind of like how some uber strong dude appears in the story, does his thing, and you never see him again.

Huh maybe that can be an explanation to this. Gil was purposely nerfed for plot purposes, seems about right.

[orangejuicetang]

Originally Posted by MonkeyDude

But Heracles was already the Berserker, so it seemed fitting for Cu Chulainn to be the Lancer with his Gae Bolg. At the very least, the games that come from that side of the world seem to associate him with Gae Bolg if we go with Persona 3. Gae Bolg itself is a rather popular weapon and guess who is naturally associated with it. As for Medea, yeah I got that wrong and incorrectly assumed she had divine blood due to her relationship to Circe. Well at least she was a priestess of Hecate, who is conveniently associated with magic and witches.



I think that a fully unleashed "Nanaya Mode" is equal to that of a Shiki with his limiter released. I mean I'm going with the manga here (illustrations do wonders) and he pulled off some superhuman acrobatics. It's best not to think too much about 'lulz anime physics' and just enjoy the show. Nasu says a lot of things, but I take them with a grain of salt until I see it in writing. I know that his word is basically law concerning his universe, but I'd like to see it in an official work first for clarification.

I'm going by the game. Because in Nasuland, you can still be human and strong enough to punch back bullets and uproot trees.

Originally Posted by MonkeyDude

Arrogance can only explain so much before you have to wonder why he got overwhelmed so badly. He could obliterated Shirou in the blink of an eye and yet he still let himself get overwhelmed like that. His arrogance is the main factor of his defeat, but it doesn't do much to explain the ridiculousness that is the fight. Can you cite me a source as to weapons being able to move on their own to attack? I mean it probably happened, but I honestly don't remember it. Getting a bit off tangent there since everything is dictated by plot, but would it kill Nasu to have it make sense to some degree? I just want a decent explanation to certain things (such as Gil/Shirou fight and Emiya being alive after all that), and what has been offered thus far hasn't satisfied me in the slightest. Gil getting overwhelmed to such a degree when he could have just "use GoB longer until there's nothing left" is something I want explained and no I won't take plot as an explanation

Posted a single page ago for the swords moving on their own.

Originally Posted by frenze12

As you wish but with the exception of Berserker being the tank and Shirou the gangbanger.

Spoiler for How to gangbang a tank:

Originally Posted by MonkeyDude

Oh and I only want an explanation after he got his arm cut off. You would think he would have pulled out all the stops after that happened. I welcome being proven wrong since I'm too lazy to recheck the text

Literally, about five seconds after he gets his arm cuts off, he gets sucked into the grail. Or, a quick memory refresher.
Shirou slices Gil's arm off.
Gil jumps back.
Shirou takes a step to chase.
Excalibur destroys UBW.
Grail sucks in Gilgamesh.

Originally Posted by MonkeyDude

He also has an anemic body and is

Spoiler for tsukihime spoilers, don't click if you haven't read tsukihime in its entirety:

Spoiler for another one just in case:

also operating on half a life force supplied by Akiha.

He shouldn't have been able to do the things he did in Tsukihime, yet he somehow did. Let's chalk this one up to protagonist hax.

Yes, I know. But his anemic is really only used as a plot device. It doesn't really affect his physical capabilities at all. And his anemia is only because

Spoiler for minor correction:

He's functioning on one fourth a life force supplied by Akiha. Your forgetting that ROASHIKI also stole some. Not that this matters at all.

Originally Posted by MonkeyDude

His very arrogance allowed him to overcome the taint of the grail, a feat no other servant is capable of (maybe Assassin or Emiya I guess). He can curb stomp people whenever he damn well feels like it (Saber is an exception I suppose), but his arrogance always get in the way. I guess that is Nasu's way of nerfing an otherwise severely overpowered character in FSN just so he won't ruin the plot. Kind of like how some uber strong dude appears in the story, does his thing, and you never see him again.

Huh maybe that can be an explanation to this. Gil was purposely nerfed for plot purposes, seems about right.

Yes, I know his arrogance helped him there. That doesn't mean it's overall a net benefit, especially in combat. I don't see how overcoming the taint of the grail means anything about him being a better warrior than anyone else. He could curbstomp Saber too, but people never or rarely complain about that. There would be no story if Gilgamesh was serious and not arrogant. The war would have ended on the first day, since Nasu stated that Gilgamesh could have ended the fourth war in a single night if he wanted. He could have just flown in his golden flying saucer and ea'ed the fuck out of Fuyuki. That's what seriously bugs me. People are always saying "Gilgamesh is so much powerful, it didn't make sense for him to lose to Shirou." The fact is, in FSN, Gilgamesh is literally more powerful than the rest of the cast combined. If your simply looking at it from the amount of power each side possess, it was just as unlikely as Saber or Dark Sakura killing him. The only person who might be able to kill him is Archer if he's summoned as a counter-guardian, and that's only because presumably Alaya would be boosting the fuck out of him and give him infinite retries.

[Nevflinn]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

There would be no story if Gilgamesh was serious and not arrogant. The war would have ended on the first day, since Nasu stated that Gilgamesh could have ended the fourth war in a single night if he wanted. He could have just flown in his golden flying saucer and ea'ed the fuck out of Fuyuki. That's what seriously bugs me. People are always saying "Gilgamesh is so much powerful, it didn't make sense for him to lose to Shirou." The fact is, in FSN, Gilgamesh is literally more powerful than the rest of the cast combined. If your simply looking at it from the amount of power each side possess, it was just as unlikely as Saber or Dark Sakura killing him. The only person who might be able to kill him is Archer if he's summoned as a counter-guardian, and that's only because presumably Alaya would be boosting the fuck out of him and give him infinite retries.

....
Seriously?

That's not the mark of an interesting character, that's the mark of a bad character. Giving someone the potential to one-shot everything without physical penalty, and needing a personality excuse is just boring.

He could curbstomp Saber too, but people never or rarely complain about that.

It depends. Without Avalon, then it comes down to whether or not she can keep close to Gilgamesh and keep him from using Ea - if not, then Gilgamesh would have an advantage through sheer power. With Avalon, then his weapons' power is meaningless: he can tear the planet up as many times as he likes, as she's still gonna come after him and cut him in half.

[willyvereb]

Even with Avalon as Saber needs to surprise him to even suceed...Gilgamesh is THAT OP. You know when one possesses a world-destroying NP...

[TheTauPathfinder]

where can I buy the game.. fate hollow ataraxia?
where can I download it..
so hard..
Im still 16.. can't use credit cards

[frenze12]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Even with Avalon as Saber needs to surprise him to even suceed...Gilgamesh is THAT OP. You know when one possesses a world-destroying NP...

A world-destroying NP only in name, it's max range (1-99) and max target (1000) are the same as excaliber.

[orangejuicetang]

Be fair though, it does do much more damage than Excalibur, and it actually creates an artificial space-time rift every time it's used.