[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I said this before,but when Kanon was found he had a gunshot wound to the stomach Shannon's wound was to her chest. So if they are the same person Shannon should have two different wounds, but when Battler finds her dead with George this isn't shown.

There is a red about each of the people being shot too. the red doesn't only say they all got killed instantly it also says each of them were shot. I don't think faking works here.

No, it says they had signs of what appeared to be fatal gunshot wounds. Nanjo thought they could have also been made by a spear-like object. For all we know, they weren't even really wounded when they were first discovered, just made up to look like they were.

[chronotrig]

@Judoh:
I think I see where the problem is. These games show the story as Battler would tell it at the end of the game. Since Battler didn't see all the scenes, scenes in which he wasn't present would be either in an over-perspective or through the eyes of someone he heard the story from.

In other words, we can finally do away with all of that confusion about whose perspective is active at what time. That would just make the story messy and confusing. With the Battler-centric theory, we know that whatever scene we are seeing, it is something that Battler thinks is the truth for some reason. Part of the puzzle is figuring out what that reason is for each scene.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

No, it says they had signs of what appeared to be fatal gunshot wounds. Nanjo thought they could have also been made by a spear-like object. For all we know, they weren't even really wounded when they were first discovered, just made up to look like they were.

Regardless: All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!

became is the key word here. A fake wound does not become fatal later.

You can also argue that "all of them" refers "to all 5 people". Therefore Kanon and Shannon have different wounds.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Regardless: All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!

became is the key word here. A fake wound does not become fatal later.

彼ら全員には致命傷となった銃創と思わしき傷痕があったぞ！
All of them had signs resembling (gunshot wounds which became fatal)!

Also, fake wounds can become fatal if someone rams a metal stake through them.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

彼ら全員には致命傷となった銃創と思わしき傷痕があったぞ！
All of them had signs resembling (gunshot wounds which became fatal)!

Also, fake wounds can become fatal if someone rams a metal stake through them.

Wouldn't that be a different wound then if the stakes were used after? I guess they can be fatal that way, but it sounds like there are two different wounds and the red can only refer to one of them.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

To elaborate on what I said a couple posts back, I strongly suspect that most of the middlegame events in EP1 and EP2 can be explained by the servants trying to catch the culprit. Something like this, although I've probably got some details wrong:

I think that's a pretty good outline. I suspect the servants of further conspiring as well, although not actually commiting any real murders. Who knows... but...

In your theories, why do they go ahead and stake the corpses? It suggests to me that they were going to kill the people if they intended to stake them. Unlike EP4 where someone just put the stake down beside the victim...

I can kind of understand though. I feel it is the servants who actually have the stakes, but that necessitates them murdering or at the very least disfiguring a corpse. I can't reconcile that with them searching for the culprit. Unless both sides are guilty. 8)

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Wouldn't that be a different wound then if the stakes were used after? I guess they can be fatal that way, but it sounds like there are two different wounds and the red can only refer to one of them.

The point is that you can interpret that red as only saying that the search party thought the victims had fatal gunshot wounds, rather than that they actually did have fatal gunshot wounds at that time. Someone could come along later and stab the victims in a way that wouldn't clash with Nanjo's autopsy, so nobody (read: Eva and Battler) would notice a problem later. As long as the real stabbing/whatever happened before everyone got back to the guesthouse, there's no contradiction.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

I think that's a pretty good outline. I suspect the servants of further conspiring as well, although not actually commiting any real murders. Who knows... but...

In your theories, why do they go ahead and stake the corpses? It suggests to me that they were going to kill the people if they intended to stake them. Unlike EP4 where someone just put the stake down beside the victim...

I can kind of understand though. I feel it is the servants who actually have the stakes, but that necessitates them murdering or at the very least disfiguring a corpse. I can't reconcile that with them searching for the culprit. Unless both sides are guilty. 8)

For EP1 I suggested they were responsible for the 2nd twilight stakes only because they were pretty clearly responsible for the ones used in the 4th and 5th twilights. The 6th-8th twilights imply somebody else had access to them though (unless the murderer in that case was Kanon), so I could go either way.

For EP2 it's not really necessary that they be the ones who staked Jessica, so they could have just found her that way. The culprit definitely had access to stakes in this episode because of the situation in Natsuhi's room.

The million dollar question is where the stakes are kept during the game. Carrying more than one or maybe two of them around doesn't seem feasible. I'd say Kinzo's study if not for EP1, but the 6th-8th twilights seem to rule that out. So, I've been wondering if maybe they were already passed out to various people as part of the fake death thing, and the culprit's been picking them up from the bodies.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

The point is that you can interpret that red as only saying that the search party thought the victims had fatal gunshot wounds, rather than that they actually did have fatal gunshot wounds at that time. Someone could come along later and stab the victims in a way that wouldn't clash with Nanjo's autopsy, so nobody (read: Eva and Battler) would notice a problem later. As long as the real stabbing/whatever happened before everyone got back to the guesthouse, there's no contradiction.

So your theory is basically "the killed people were rekilled in a way resembling the autopsy later" ?

I guess there aren't any problems with this, but I wonder why Kanon was given the same type of wound as Kyrie when he was restabbed then?

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Judoh

So your theory is basically "the killed people were rekilled in a way resembling the autopsy later" ?

I guess there aren't any problems with this, but I wonder why Kanon was given the same type of wound as Kyrie when he was restabbed then?

Coincidence, I guess? Kanon's death is confined to before 7am when Beato confirmed it in red. Kyrie died much later in the day and got staked on top of that, so I don't think there needs to be any particular connection between the two.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

Maria - Lying about Beatrice, Lying about seeing magicr

Maria isn't lying about seeing Beatrice or seeing magic; she actually did meet with a Beatrice and she never actually SAW the magic, as Ep6 explores, I believe. She is, however, lying about Kinzo.

Just pointing that out.

Spoiler for rebuttal:

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Wait, so it's a dirty trick to have Battler's perspective be not reliable in the very first episode where it is confirmed to be not reliable? They outright prove that his perspective isn't reliable in the climax at the end, and this is somehow a dirty trick?

Battler's perspective is perfectly reliable in Ep1... the 'golden butterflies' could well be anything. The only time his perspective is not reliable is in Ep2, and I've pointed out before that it may have been because his player resigned, although everyone completely ignored me and went back to their ridiculous he was drunk lol theory.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

No, you're misunderstanding my theory. The scenes in which Meta-Battler and Meta-Beatrice speak with each other are not part of the Battler-centric theory. These are the straight meta-scenes, those that include people who exist in multiple worlds. It is always obvious when these sorts of scenes are taking place, and we know that they don't affect the game board because that creates a time paradox (unless you can construct a theory for how Battler knows about the future).

Most of the other scenes follow the story as Battler would tell it if he had to write it all down at the end. You can think of it as an account written at the end by the main character. Of course, if you were forced to write the entire tale down, you would have several blank spots that you only heard about from someone else. These parts would be based on their testimony that you heard.

...Eh? So you're questioning the very nature of first-person narration now?

Battler is describing things because he's the narrator and this is a story... I have no idea how you got that theory out of this, but it still strikes me as an awfully convenient way to explain away things that don't fit with your interpretation.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Not so. Battler must always have a reason for thinking that these scenes played out in a certain way. In EP4, it is at its most obvious. Everything is more or less as he heard it from Kyrie. His imagination and the test Beatrice showed him helped to fill in the blanks that Kyrie didn't mention. However, the basic outline was given to him by an actual person on the island. Fortunately, EP4 is the only time when Battler is apart from the action so long that he can't confirm the facts for himself. In all other cases, the stories that Battler is told must be carefully crafted to fit the facts he knows of.

I have no idea where this is coming from. It is likely something you made up out of whole cloth. I don't see this evidence you're talking about.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Check the facts. Krauss and Natsuhi's tips make it pretty clear that Krauss never pays any attention to household matters at all, much less setting the schedules for all servants. Genji is the head servant, which means he must have some control over how the servants' jobs are divided. Otherwise, what would the position of head servant even mean?

Even more important though is the fact that Shannon and Kanon were servants with the One-winged crest. We know for a fact that these servants answered personally to Kinzo, and that, for this reason, the rest of the family viewed them as Kinzo's spies and distrusted them. There's a lot that Krauss and Natsuhi don't know about the -on servants. This is something we've known since the beginning. When Kinzo died, it's very possible that Natsuhi let Genji take over the household matters that Kinzo had formerly controlled personally. Unless you can show evidence that this was not the case, my argument stands.

So, your logic is: Because Shannon and Kanon work for Kinzo, Natsuhi, Krauss, Jessica, and Gohda have never realized that they are the same person and have never questioned why they have never seen the two of them together? Again, this is ludicrous.

Further... don't try to turn things around on me. You haven't proved a thing other than you love to turn complete conjecture into what sounds like a workable theory. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Also, even if Krauss doesn't decide the normal schedule, Natsuhi definitely does. She's controlling and believes herself to be the head of the household, was the one who scheduled Shannon and Kanon during the family conference, and, you may have forgotten, but it was Krauss who had the servants change locations in during Ep1.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

You aren't making sense here. We know that Sayo worked extremely hard to keep the Shkanon thing secret. We also know that she's trying to make Battler utterly confused so that he believes in magic. It's only natural that she would give an explanation that makes the truth as hidden as possible and that makes magic the reason for everything. As long as you accept the premises of my theory, this is only a natural result.

Emphasis mine.

"We" don't know this. This is your theory, which you seem to be forgetting, and you haven't proven anything to, at least, my satisfaction at all.

How does Shkannon constitute magic being the reason for everything? Rather, why is keeping their identity a secret needed to explain things through magic?

I also don't happen to accept the premises of your theory, but perhaps you would like to remind me of what they are?

Originally Posted by chronotrig

I'll get to that red text later, but it actually supports my overall theory more than it damages it. There is no evidence that Nanjo killed them, and there are several bits of evidence pointing to Sayo being the killer for the first twilight. However, I can't get there until I reach the next part of my theory. We're almost to EP3...

As for my evidence, I've just given it. Why is it that in all of Umineko, this is the only time people believe the corpses are faked? I don't believe that it's "just because they're all servants+Kinzo". There must be a reason that Rosa, Eva, and Kyrie all separately reached the conclusion that the whole thing was a joke. And it is a fact that Kyrie took a group to check out the mansion almost immediately after Rosa's death proved that it wasn't all a joke.

Again, I don't remember this. If you could quote the exact lines, it would be helpful.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

That was for unidentified corpses. That line of red text was worded in an awkward way, so there must be a reason Beatrice used that choice of wording. If everyone looking at the corpse realizes it's a fake, then it isn't unidentified. All this means is that, whenever there is a fake corpse, it must be possible to tell that it's fake if you can take a good look at it. By the way, Erika proves that this interpretation is correct in EP5, when she's in the same room as several "fake corpses" but doesn't realize that they're fake because she never looks at them.

Fake corpses =/= body doubles. I realize the red has a specific context, but I think we can remove it from that and it would still be true: No body double tricks exist. But that's neither here not there.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Except there must be a reason for all fake scenes, and there must be a way to find out which scenes are fake. After all, the spirit of Knox's laws do not allow for an unsolvable mystery. There is plenty of evidence to support my Battler-centric theory, and once you assume that theory is true, it is easy to trace where Battler got most of his info from.

WHERE IS THIS EVIDENCE? I'm sorry if you presented it earlier, but I really do not have the patience to hunt through this thread for it. So if you could explain in detail again...

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Furthermore, and this is something people tend to forget, Meta-Beatrice wanted Battler to find the truth on his own. She had no motive for abusing magic scenes. On the contrary, we know in red that she made this game to be solvable. Therefore, magic scenes will give clues towards the truth whenever possible. We can never be sure that any particular scene is true, but if it isn't true, we know for a fact that there will be a way to find the truth hidden behind the scene.

Yes, exactly. This is the only thing I can consider to be of merit in this entire post.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Why exactly? The Battler-centric theory not only explains Shkanon, it also explains why Battler's perspective is always true in the question arcs, it explains why Kyrie's story was necessary, it explains why the meeting with Battler and Beatrice at the end of EP2 was significant. My premises all have plenty of evidence pointing towards them, so I see no need to abandon them.

...How does it explain any of these things? All I see is you ignoring information that isn't conducive to your theory by dismissing it as "hearsay". The only thing it might explain is what that meeting at the end of Ep2 was about... and that had to do with Piece-Battler, in any case.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

There is a clear indication that Sayo gave Battler the head's ring at about midnight, which explains why Battler would know her secret and try to keep it.

...What? I'm sorry, just... where is this coming from?

Originally Posted by chronotrig

In other words, it's only a dirty trick if you haven't figured out the true rules of the game.

If you aren't part of the Enlightened like you are, you mean. You're acting elitist again.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

In other words, we can finally do away with all of that confusion about whose perspective is active at what time. That would just make the story messy and confusing. With the Battler-centric theory, we know that whatever scene we are seeing, it is something that Battler thinks is the truth for some reason. Part of the puzzle is figuring out what that reason is for each scene.

Ah, I may have just remembered something that may prove you wrong, or at least help to do so:

Aside from the quirks of Ryukishi's odd perspective changes, each episode has an objective, third-person narrator. Sometimes, this person is lying.

Up until Ep6, this person has never been Battler. It's only really obvious who this person is in Ep3 and Ep5, however... it's Beatrice in the former and Lambda in the latter.

If you stretch your memory a little, since you're the translator, you should know what I'm talking about, but I can dig up examples if you really need them.

There is no way the games are presented based around Battler's interpretation after-the-fact, but rather the Game Master weaving a story of fantasy for their opponent to disprove, in other words, exactly how we assumed it to be in the first place.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Maria isn't lying about seeing Beatrice or seeing magic; she actually did meet with a Beatrice and she never actually SAW the magic, as Ep6 explores, I believe. She is, however, lying about Kinzo.

Just pointing that out.

Oh yah, technically she doesn't think she is lying. Although she is...

Wait a second! Speaking about the magic cup thing in EP6. Erika just assumes Maria was the one who put the candy under the cup... but... maybe she really ISN'T lying? What if someone placed it there for her? Quick, who in the room is the most likely candidate?! Jessica? George?

Did everyone realize this but me? heh... heh...

Wow, wait a second. What if Maria has never been lying at all and everything that she claims to have seen or done was done for her? I mean Jessica was the one who gave the scorpion bracelet charm to Natsuhi. Here we were trying to think of 'how can the culprit know there was a scorpion charm there'... but that's not right. I mean, the obvious answer was Jessica let someone else know, on purpose!

Geez... I think you can solve Umineko just by watching Maria, rather than Battler! Maybe this is why he keeps saying, "Without love it can't be seen."

It sorta makes sense. If Battler is the litmus test for seeing the truth then Maria must be the litmus test for seeing 'magic.' Since people thought she was the Black King compared to Battler's White King.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

Oh yah, technically she doesn't think she is lying. Although she is...

Wait a second! Speaking about the magic cup thing in EP6. Erika just assumes Maria was the one who put the candy under the cup... but... maybe she really ISN'T lying? What if someone placed it there for her? Quick, who in the room is the most likely candidate?! Jessica? George?

Did everyone realize this but me? heh... heh...

Nanjo did say everybody in the ushiromiya family and the servants had placed sweets secretly somewhere once or twice. He said this in episode two. If George was there he is a very good candidate. When he was asked if he would he said "who knows" trying not to admit it in front of maria, which implies he's done it at least once.

[Kylon99]

I think both George and Jessica are in on the plots then. Not sure how far they go, although from my first twilight chart it seems those two are fairly involved.

This is both because of the coaching we suspect George of having done and Jessica for being basically the only other girl who can coach Maria when she's there.

I'm going to have to go back through the game again. Sigh.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

Wow, wait a second. What if Maria has never been lying at all and everything that she claims to have seen or done was done for her? I mean Jessica was the one who gave the scorpion bracelet charm to Natsuhi. Here we were trying to think of 'how can the culprit know there was a scorpion charm there'... but that's not right. I mean, the obvious answer was Jessica let someone else know, on purpose!

The even more obvious answer is that Jessica is the one who scratched up Natsuhi's door.

[Kylon99]

Well, someone mentioned to me regarding the Circle Painter as being Genji, based on analyzing EP1-4 and seeing that the painting stopped once he died. I was assuming that Jessica didn't have that job but someone else did in the Beatrice Faction. I haven't seen or done the necessary analysis to say it's Genji though.

[Judoh]

I'm willing to bet Eva sent Maria playing with red finger paints. No hints for it. I just think that answer would just be so cute~

[chronotrig]

@Kaisos Erranon:

Spoiler for size:

Instead of going through each and every point, let me ask you a question. Do you have an alternate explanation for the opening of EP2? I refuse to believe that the entire thing was pointless, and I refuse to believe that the "invisible Beatrice" Shannon and Kanon saw were completely unrelated to Ange's furniture in EP4. I also refuse to believe that the entire opening of EP4 was all some metaphorical thing and Ange wasn't actually imagining characters in her head.

If any of those above things were true, it would mean that Ryuukishi totally wasted our time for the opening of those two games. Why would he want to do that?

Also, what do you really think of the magic scenes? Is it really just "insert cool magic fight here to entertain stupid readers" or something? If that's true, I would feel very disappointed if not insulted. Or, is there a reason for the scenes he chose? If so, then a truly complete theory must find an explanation for why each of the magic scenes are the way they appear to be.

So far, I think my theory offers an explanation for all of these things. And that explanation includes Shkanontrice. Furthermore, if you take my theory for EP1-4 and apply it to EP5, it resolves the Shkanon problem there and even explains the reason for the fake murders, another thing that's really hard to do by another method. It might just be a coincidence that it works in all of these places, but if it could then be matched to EP3, that would be one hell of a coincidence, don't you think?

[Kylon99]

Man... if you go back to EP1 Shannon after reading through to EP6 Shannon... EP1 Shannon feels like she had brain damage or something... The character 'development' is quite apparent if you suddenly jump back.

I'm not really believing she has the ability to carry out her duties, never mind masterminding a murder in EP1. EP4, 5, 6 Shannon, maybe.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

Man... if you go back to EP1 Shannon after reading through to EP6 Shannon... EP1 Shannon feels like she had brain damage or something... The character 'development' is quite apparent if you suddenly jump back.

Eh? Brain damage? what part of the episode are you referring to?