Can Orochimaru really make Sasuke stronger than Itachi?

[Anime_o_Daisuki]

If I remember correctly, early on in the series, Orochimaru tells Kabuto that he left Akatsuki because Itachi had become stronger than him and he would no longer be able to acquire Itachi's body. Then, he explains that he decided to look for another member of the same clan, i.e. Sasuke, the only known survivor of that clan, and take his body. But! if Orochimaru is weaker than Itachi then how can Sasuke become stronger than Itachi under the tutelage of someone who is also weaker than Itachi. I would be interested in seeing other opinions on this. However, if I made a mistake in recalling why Orochimaru left Akatsuki then I'm sorry and please don't hate me

[Rachy]

Maybe because orochimaru is weak against genjutsu .. meh lol.

he said itachi was stronger, still not sure if they fought.

he could by all means become stronger, by orochimaru? hardly, Sasuke would eventually because he has more potential. He could of stayed with kakashi and still been stronger.

i think Sasuke will grow stronger than Itachi, not because of orochimaru though and i dont think he will get to kill itachi in the end either.

[Zek]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Itachi on the verge of winning in their battle, but then letting Sasuke kill him, because he really did have feelings for his brother deep down after all. How sweet.

[Rachy]

he really did have feelings for his brother deep down after all. How sweet.

right ^_^.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Itachi on the verge of winning in their battle, but then letting Sasuke kill him

wrong >_>, if sasuke was going to kill him, itachi would die with a pathetic baby scream and sasuke would just laugh

[wingdarkness]

But! if Orochimaru is weaker than Itachi then how can Sasuke become stronger than Itachi under the tutelage of someone who is also weaker than Itachi.

Simply put...It's because Sasuke has the same bloodline-limit...If Oro can find a way to match sharingan, then he can use (or have Sasuke use) other ninjitsu techniques to even the playing feild...As for kalediscope sharingan (MS) I don't know how you can match that $hit...Perhaps Kabuto has some weaknesses on one of his duel monsters-cards ...I'm sure Oro has some ideas of how to compete with it...

he better...

[Soma]

Originally Posted by Anime_o_Daisuki

If I remember correctly, early on in the series, Orochimaru tells Kabuto that he left Akatsuki because Itachi had become stronger than him and he would no longer be able to acquire Itachi's body. Then, he explains that he decided to look for another member of the same clan, i.e. Sasuke, the only known survivor of that clan, and take his body. But! if Orochimaru is weaker than Itachi then how can Sasuke become stronger than Itachi under the tutelage of someone who is also weaker than Itachi. I would be interested in seeing other opinions on this. However, if I made a mistake in recalling why Orochimaru left Akatsuki then I'm sorry and please don't hate me

Yondaime got stronger than Jiraiya, so I don't see what the problem is here. Just because Orochimaru is not strong enough to beat Itachi, doesn't mean Sasuke won't be. He has greater potential, so it's only a matter of time till Sasuke surpasses Orochimaru and Itachi.

[A Lamer]

Not to mention the fact that orochimaru would have told him he'd also teach him how to restore uchiha clan in its entirety and revive the second hokage as a tap dancing zombie if it meant sasuke would come to him. His true goal is to steal his body, not use him as a pawn against mean old itachi.

[ShikaShika]

Who says Orochimaru has to make him stronger than Itachi? He's just going there to get stronger, and when he can't use Orochimaru any more, he'll move on to find somebody else, or train by himself. It's not like he has to go beat Itachi when he has finished training with Orochimaru. That said, maybe he can make Sasuke stronger than Itachi.

[Mirtual]

Originally Posted by Anime_o_Daisuki

If I remember correctly, early on in the series, Orochimaru tells Kabuto that he left Akatsuki because Itachi had become stronger than him and he would no longer be able to acquire Itachi's body. Then, he explains that he decided to look for another member of the same clan, i.e. Sasuke, the only known survivor of that clan, and take his body. But! if Orochimaru is weaker than Itachi then how can Sasuke become stronger than Itachi under the tutelage of someone who is also weaker than Itachi. I would be interested in seeing other opinions on this. However, if I made a mistake in recalling why Orochimaru left Akatsuki then I'm sorry and please don't hate me

The only valid answer is that the power of the Plot devices could make Sasuke catch up to Itachi.

He SHOULD be weaker then Itachi, and he SHOULD never be able to surpass him:

Spoiler for Naruto Manga, current chapter 300:

1) Sasuke's greatest advantage is his Kekkei Genkai, the Sharingan.
Orochimaru does not know how to use it, handle it, or train it. How should he? The only person left alive who could have told him is Itachi, and I have my doubts they had their "hey, want to know something about the sharingan?" meetings. The only chance for Orochimaru to get his hands on knowledge about the Sharingan would have been back then in Konoha as the clan still existed. But seeing how secretive the clan was I hav my doubts here that a lot of information was available for him. Not to mention he lacks the most important thing on the field. Experience with the sharingan.
So the only thing he could do is try to support Sasuke in developing his sharingan based skills on his own.
2) Itachi, plot device or no plot device?
Considering Itachi is a plot device for the sake of Sasuke's character development, it could have been possible for him to catch up on Itachi in those 2.5 years. But from a logical point of view I do not see a reason why Itachi should have stopped to improve and train. Seeing how far their difference has been in their encounter I doubt Sasuke could have improved more than Itachi in the 2.5 years AND having cought up on the 5 years Itachi is ahead of him from just his age.
[I]3) Orochimaru has had a working brain so far.[I/]
Orochimaru turned away from Akatsuki because Itachi was stronger than him. Why should he train one more Uchiha superior to him? And IF Sasuke would be stronger than Itachi, he would be stronger than Orochimaru too. No point in digging your own grave...
4) On being a genius.
Itachi left Sasuke alive saying that his eyes carried the same potential as his own (though we all know Itachi is a quite frequent lier) and Orochimaru said that Sasuke's eyes had more potential than those of Itachi. Considering Itachi grew up with Sasuke and knew him quite well, while Orochimaru knew him for a couple of minutes before his statement, I will stick with Itachi's words. Sasuke has the same POTENTIAL as him. Now if only there wouldn't be that diefference of 5 years in age/experience Sasuke might have a chance against him.
5) Let us look at the plain numbers and facts.
==Itachi==
Academy grad age: 7
Chunin exam age: 10
Jounin exam age: -
Sharingan activated: 8 (full)
Mangekyou: 12
Other things of interest: Captain of a ANBU special devision by the age of 13; destroyed the whole Uchiha clan on his own at the age of 13 - 14
Missions Completed:
D-Rank: 53
C-Rank: 152
B-Rank: 134
A-Rank: 0
S-Rank: 1

==Sasuke==
Academy grad age: 12
Chunin exam age: failed
Jounin exam age: -
Sharingan activated: 12 (full at 13)
Mangekyou: not known
Other things of interest: Number one rookie of his generation; Tenfuuin; trained by Orochimaru
Missions Completed:
D-Rank: 7
C-Rank: 1
B-Rank: 0
A-Rank: 1
S-Rank: 0

And by the way. Before Orochimaru went after Sasuke he wanted to take Kimimaros body, knowing that Sasuke was still alive and being well aware of the Sharingan. So stop saying that Itachi's only advantage over Orochimaru would be his Kekkei Genkai, since if that would have been the case Orochimaru wouldn't have favored Kimimaro's body.
Itachi is simply superior to him.

Spoiler for Manga:

Though we can't say that for sure after the time skip.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by Mirtual

[SIZE="1"]The only valid answer is that the power of the Plot devices could make Sasuke catch up to Itachi.

He SHOULD be weaker then Itachi, and he SHOULD never be able to surpass him:

Spoiler for Mission data about Itachi & Sasuke:

5) Let us look at the plain numbers and facts.
==Itachi==
Academy grad age: 7
Chunin exam age: 10
Jounin exam age: -
Sharingan activated: 8 (full)
Mangekyou: 12
Other things of interest: Captain of a ANBU special devision by the age of 13; destroyed the whole Uchiha clan on his own at the age of 13 - 14
Missions Completed:
D-Rank: 53
C-Rank: 152
B-Rank: 134
A-Rank: 0
S-Rank: 1

==Sasuke==
Academy grad age: 12
Chunin exam age: failed
Jounin exam age: -
Sharingan activated: 12 (full at 13)
Mangekyou: not known
Other things of interest: Number one rookie of his generation; Tenfuuin; trained by Orochimaru
Missions Completed:
D-Rank: 7
C-Rank: 1
B-Rank: 0
A-Rank: 1
S-Rank: 0

I erased any spoilers out of the spoiler tag and only data is left...data about missions etc.


So you are saying that Itachi had his Mangekyou 1-2 years before the massacre?
To me it seemed that shortly after he killed his friend he killed the others..

Did that really took 1 or 2 years?

[Last_Hope]

Originally Posted by Mirtual

Spoiler:

[I]3) Orochimaru has had a working brain so far.[I/]
Orochimaru turned away from Akatsuki because Itachi was stronger than him. Why should he train one more Uchiha superior to him? And IF Sasuke would be stronger than Itachi, he would be stronger than Orochimaru too. No point in digging your own grave...

Spoiler:

Now wouldn´t that be an interesting twist! I haven´t thought about it before. What if that´s true, Orochimaru holds Sasuke fooled. Sasuke has gotten stronger but not all that stronger, he´s still miles behind Itachi.

I would like that, it would give the characters more growing time. It would be a little boring if they were godlike at the age of 15...

[Rachy]

5) Let us look at the plain numbers and facts.
==Itachi==
Academy grad age: 7
Chunin exam age: 10
Jounin exam age: -
Sharingan activated: 8 (full)
Mangekyou: 12
Other things of interest: Captain of a ANBU special devision by the age of 13; destroyed the whole Uchiha clan on his own at the age of 13 - 14
Missions Completed:
D-Rank: 53
C-Rank: 152
B-Rank: 134
A-Rank: 0
S-Rank: 1

==Sasuke==
Academy grad age: 12
Chunin exam age: failed
Jounin exam age: -
Sharingan activated: 12 (full at 13)
Mangekyou: not known
Other things of interest: Number one rookie of his generation; Tenfuuin; trained by Orochimaru
Missions Completed:
D-Rank: 7
C-Rank: 1
B-Rank: 0
A-Rank: 1
S-Rank: 0

Mind adding that Itachi had about 6 or 7 more years of doing missions than Sasuke and that it's kind of hard to pass the chuunin exam with two people holding youma's ? and that sasuke wasnt pushed and pushed like Itachi was.

4) On being a genius.
Itachi left Sasuke alive saying that his eyes carried the same potential as his own (though we all know Itachi is a quite frequent lier) and Orochimaru said that Sasuke's eyes had more potential than those of Itachi. Considering Itachi grew up with Sasuke and knew him quite well, while Orochimaru knew him for a couple of minutes before his statement, I will stick with Itachi's words. Sasuke has the same POTENTIAL as him. Now if only there wouldn't be that diefference of 5 years in age/experience Sasuke might have a chance against him.

Itachi meant that Sasuke had potential to use the mangenkyou, Orochimaru made the general statement Sasuke has more potential, considering Orochimaru knew what Uchiha's were capable of and 40 years of experience, ill go with his choice.

[i]3) Orochimaru has had a working brain so far.[I/]
Orochimaru turned away from Akatsuki because Itachi was stronger than him. Why should he train one more Uchiha superior to him? And IF Sasuke would be stronger than Itachi, he would be stronger than Orochimaru too. No point in digging your own grave...

plot device, for all we know he entered the akatsuki get Itachi's body and Itachi was stronger than him, Sasuke willingly came there and stated that he would let the devil take over his body if it meant his brother would die.

1) Sasuke's greatest advantage is his Kekkei Genkai, the Sharingan.
Orochimaru does not know how to use it, handle it, or train it. How should he? The only person left alive who could have told him is Itachi, and I have my doubts they had their "hey, want to know something about the sharingan?" meetings. The only chance for Orochimaru to get his hands on knowledge about the Sharingan would have been back then in Konoha as the clan still existed. But seeing how secretive the clan was I hav my doubts here that a lot of information was available for him. Not to mention he lacks the most important thing on the field. Experience with the sharingan.
So the only thing he could do is try to support Sasuke in developing his sharingan based skills on his own.

There was probably scrolls about them, like that ones Itachi said were hidden maybe Orochimaru could find them. Also Kakashi knew nothing about the sharingan did that matter? no.

[teddychan]

for me orochimaru did not leave akatsuki because Itachi had become stronger than him and he would no longer be able to acquire Itachi's body. for me he had his own intentions for more power or world domination.

and for the main topic I'm sure orochimaru is only fooling sasuke because orochimaru just wanted more more power that all thank you

[Razz]

Originally Posted by teddychan

for me orochimaru did not leave akatsuki because Itachi had become stronger than him and he would no longer be able to acquire Itachi's body. for me he had his own intentions for more power or world domination.

and for the main topic I'm sure orochimaru is fooling sasuke because orochimaru just wanted more more power that all thank you

Yeah, too bad Oro DID leave Akatsuki because he realised Itachi being a vessel was just a distant dream. So he left the organisation and went after Sasuke.

Now whether or not Oro can make Sasuke as strong as Itachi or not remains to be seen. I think Oro can and will teach Sasuke most of his Jutsu, because in the end no matter how strong Sasuke becomes, he is still influenced by the Cursed Seal and that will be his downfall, as far as Oro is concerned, at least. I personally think the only person who can make Sasuke stronger than Itachi would be....Itachi himself. Too bad we'll never see them team up

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by Anime_o_Daisuki

if Orochimaru is weaker than Itachi then how can Sasuke become stronger than Itachi under the tutelage of someone who is also weaker than Itachi. I would be interested in seeing other opinions on this. However, if I made a mistake in recalling why Orochimaru left Akatsuki then I'm sorry and please don't hate me

If Orochimaru could make Sasuke stronger than Itachi,

Then he would be faced with the same problem as Before..

So i don't believe Orochimaru has the intention of making him Stronger than Itachi,

Orochimaru also must have some Knowledge on Itachi.

Or Perhaps, Itachi's (MS), Was the reason Orochimaru felt he couldn't defeat Itachi

Orochimaru must have Knowledge of Genjutsu since he used it in the Chuunin Exam again'st Sasuke & Sakura, Just not as much.

[Kunimi_Hiro]

Due to the time-skip, all characters in Naruto gained strength, That I can be sure of, however, we really can't provide assumptions as this point whether Sasuke can beat Itachi at his level atm. Honestly we have yet to see Sasuke's strength on future chapters, and even Itachi's strength to gauge a rough comparison of their skills.

In my personal opinion, I think Orochimaru has a rough estimate on Itachi's strength the time he left Akatsuki, if that is so, He would've estimated the strength required to beat him. Enter Sasuke. I bet by now after the time-skip, once Orochimaru tells Sasuke that he is ready to fight Itachi, we can expect that Orochimaru came prepared to the fact that he knows that Sasuke has a very good chance of beating Itachi. I do not think Orochimaru will just let his trump card fight without investigating the strength of the enemy.

As for Itachi's side, I just do not think he will sit around and not improve (he is still on his prime, so this is a hard call). I'm willing to bet he also became stronger after the time-skip. But to be honest we really do not have sufficient data who's stronger between those two unless we read more on future chapters.

[Kunimi_Hiro]

Originally Posted by Dionysus

If Orochimaru could make Sasuke stronger than Itachi,

Then he would be faced with the same problem as Before..

So i don't believe Orochimaru has the intention of making him Stronger than Itachi,

Orochimaru also must have some Knowledge on Itachi.

Or Perhaps, Itachi's (MS), Was the reason Orochimaru felt he couldn't defeat Itachi

Orochimaru must have Knowledge of Genjutsu since he used it in the Chuunin Exam again'st Sasuke & Sakura, Just not as much.

hmmm there's a major difference between Itachi and Sasuke - "The cursed seal". Lets say Sasuke became stronger that Itachi for arguments sake. Itachi do not have the cursed seal that Sasuke have.

IMO, even if Sasuke became stronger that Itachi, Orochimaru can still somehow get his body, thru the catalyst "The cursed seal". I do not think Orochimaru is that stupid. So far, I can tell, that Orochimaru is very meticulous about these things.

[Shay]

Originally Posted by Kunimi_Hiro

IMO, even if Sasuke became stronger that Itachi, Orochimaru can still somehow get his body, thru the catalyst "The cursed seal". I do not think Orochimaru is that stupid. So far, I can tell, that Orochimaru is very meticulous about these things.

Exactly. Oro knows what he is doing, he is a man with a plan.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Akatsuki seems to be worried about Orochimaru obtaining sharingan.

Deidara even proposed that all the members join together to take out Orochimaru.

If something like that is necessary then it would imply that sharingan is what created the dichotomy in strength between Itachi and Orochimaru.

The only thing that puzzles me is, if all Orochimaru wants is sharingan, then why bother to train Sasuke at all?

After all once he gains him as a container every single jutsu Orochimaru knows will be at Sasuke's disposal, or rather Orochimaru gains nothing from training someone in his own jutsu and then aquiring the body.

It can't be said that Oro is grooming Sasuke to become a more suitable container because he was ready to obtain him during the Sound 5 arc, he just ran out of time.

Maybe he is just keeping Sasuke's time occupied with training until the day comes when he can obtain his body.

I hope we atleast see what Sasuke has learned and if the training served any useful purpose, other than to give Sasuke something to do during the time skip.

[Kotengu]

All right here's the layout how I see it. You can train someone to be stronger than yourself(or at least be able to take you out). Case in point
Yondaime>Jirya
Sandaime>1st&2nd Hokages
Orochimaru>Sarutobi
Konohamaru>Ebisu
and the list goes on. . . . HOWEVER, the question is not really can oro make sasuke stronger (than itachi and himself) it is Will he? I say no.

Originally Posted by ShurikenJay

The only thing that puzzles me is, if all Orochimaru wants is sharingan, then why bother to train Sasuke at all?

Sasuke has gone to Orochimaru under the stipulation that Oro is gonna train him to become stronger. If oro doesn't at least pretend train him then why would sasuke stay with him, or even go there in the first place. Especially when he has all of konoha(soppy wimps) to back him up?