Hayate no Gotoku manga (raw discussion only)

[bowow0708]

I've never really had much fondness for Nagi. For me she seemed to just be the doorway for Hayate to the world he's in right now. She's never been any type of romantic contender in my eyes, she's more like a little sister, no matter how much Hata tries to push them together. The real contenders for me are Hina, Ruka, and Izumi. Hina and Ruka are both already honest about their feelings, but they contrast each other in their methods of trying to show their feelings to Hayate. Hina is shy about her feelings and can't really admit it to him, while Ruka no matter how shy she is about it goes out in full force. Ruka is also my favorite because she and Hayate are so alike and compatible, she really reminds me of Athena in the sense that she is really open to Hayate with her feelings, and they are both called Goddesses. But Izumi really has the purest love for Hayate, plus she's the second girl that fell in love with Hayate, in-manga-timeline wise. She would be perfect for Hayate if she just didn't let the fun get to her head to often. I mean looking back at the chapter where Hayate came to her house and Izumi wore that wedding dress, she really is an angel to ease Hayate's hardships. She's really the most sensible of the idiot trio, unfortunately she just goes along with pretty much everything the other two do. But deep in my heart the person I really want Hayate to get together with is Chiharu.

The series in general has been on and off for me with the arcs. Mostly off with the Nagi arcs. I really hope Hata gets a blow to the head and suddenly realizes that Nagi is not suited to be with Hayate, and therefore put more concentration on the other girls!

[Sphire]

I've just recently marathoned reading the manga from essentially the Greece arc recently. I've always been more of a anime guy over a manga guy, but with the recent drop in quality and Cuties not really delivering personally, I decided to go back to the manga (I'd already read up until the Greece arc, more or less).

Spoiler for Opnions:

A few things for me, the romance subplot kinda died after the Greece arc. The whole thing with Athena killed the romance in my eyes. The 'ex-girlfriend' syndrome in romcoms really killing the rom part in this show due to how the plot has Hayate drooling over Athena. No other girl can compete with their history at the moment, I'd say even Nagi can't. And that kills the romance subplot.

Granted, Luka's actions now have finally rekindled the romance subplot, but we all know that it is in vain. In fact, it's kinda sad for Luka. It's interesting not for Luka unfortunately, but for how Hayate will react. Through the recent chapters we've seen how Hayate thinks about certain things, and so maybe there's a silver lining that the romance subplot can be interesting again, but it would take a lot of work really.

With the romance part down though, I've felt like the manga has been relatively okay else-wise. The comedy has been decent, up and down as can be expected, but overall decent. Seeing the characters in a new situation (living in the apartment) was pretty great in my eyes too. Seeing Nagi and her manga arc was actually fun too. It's all been different elements since the romance part has dwindled. I love seeing the side characters too like Wataru doing his thing. Chiharu's cool too, although I do feel like she's just an otaku version of Maria. I wish there was more of Sakuya too, she's one of my favourites. Tama and Ghost Priest should have more screentime too!

I can see how someone who has constantly been following the manga weekly could be turned off though. A lot of the chapters are padding things out. Drawing things out longer than perhaps they could be. I mean, it's taken 9 years to move 6 months in time? Especially with the romance subplot practically non-existent.

I never really viewed Nagi as a romance interest for Hayate either. It's always been more his loyalty rather than love, in both manga and anime, Maybe the show will go down that route sometime, but man, it'll take a lot to convince people it was worth it. Maybe a time-skip to the future or something. We all know Hayate has vowed to protect Nagi in the past and future, so there may be a future time-skip or leap (like in Mykonos) and we get to see things in the future. That said, the way Hayate said things will 'end' soon and the panning to the calender for Dec 24 seems odd really. All that talk about always being by Nagi's side only to last a year? Seems massively dumb.

I don't really care who Hayate ends up with romantically. I've never really been invested in shipping. Hina is still my favourite character though. So I just wish she gets more chapters soon. Whether they be romance (not the typical crappy kind like the recent one with her being sick) or other matters. Both she and Athena have been AWOL since the Greece arc. It's kind of a waste. Heck, right now, I wouldn't mind if Hina left the show/manga for whatever reason.

As for the latest chapter, I like it. I like Luka and seeing her arc play out has been sweet. The comedy's fine with me too, gives her more personality.

[GlassesLady]

I honestly don't get the appeal of either Hinagiku or Athena. Hina is a fairly typical (and annoying) tsundere, and despite the massive screentime brought on by her popularity she really doesn't seem to have developed that much or gotten anywhere with Hayate. And Athena... the way she treats Hayate and what she taught him about relationships back at the Royal Garden just seems distasteful and kind of creepy to me. :/

I've liked the current plot up until the last couple chapters (which're basically just exaggerating Ruka's personality for the lulz...). Hopefully it'll get back on track soon. I'm interested to see what happens with the manga competition now, how Nagi reacts to the scene she walked in on, etc.

[bowow0708]

Originally Posted by GlassesLady

I honestly don't get the appeal of either Hinagiku or Athena.

I think most of the appeal for the two is the amount of emotional impact they had made in their respective arcs/feature chapters.

For Hina most of the emotional impact is pointed directly towards the fans. There are many chapters that focus on her, although she never received a well done personal arc, if my memory is correct. She also has many moments with Hayate, her birthday is a good one, as well as her date with him at the amusement park, and also the Greece arc gives her a bunch of great moments with him. Her cute, embarrassed, and weak side also appeals to quite a number of fans, me included. So far, she has the most moments with Hayate compared to any of the other girls, and her chemistry with Hayate is always good to read.

As for Athena, most of the emotional impact she made was through her relationship with Hayate, and not from her personally unlike Hina and some of the other girls. But since she had her own arc it was probably just as effective as a bunch of featured chapters with the impact directed towards the fans. She was Hayate's first love when he was younger for one, and the pure uninhibited emotions when they were children hit the bullseye in the hearts of fans. The amount of love between them that was in the air during TEOTW arc was so thick you could spread it on toast and eat it. Apart from that, Athena arcs were a really different animal compared to previous ones which made them stand out to readers, therefore making her stand out as well.

These are the main reasons why I think these two are quite popular with the fans

[Lisemer]

Well, I just read some early volumes and I recognized something there that had been lacking the manga recently and can be affecting its quality: REFERENCES

When was the last time Hayate imitated unconsciously some other hero or harem lead (if Ruka confessed again in front of him he could react the same way Kodaka did with Sena's confession), or Nagi did something related to other loli character (she could imitate something from Hastur even, with their seiyuu connection)?

Maybe Hata can drop something once every few chapters, but in the early days, even after Chiharu introduction, there was at least a shot out once a chapter. But now this manga is pretty boring, not even a good parody to Bakuman. has appeared.

I could say a lot of things about the shipping wars and how Nagi is lame (even so, with the original parody nature of this manga, Hayate should end dating the least possible girl in the series, like Fumi or Miki but that's my opinion, I would prefer Hina, but the most popular girl is ever a futile cause, like Kuroneko or Misaka), but almost everything was already said and I just wanted to said how this seudo-bakuman (without referencing it directly at least ) and other bad use of the characters had been destroying the series in these recent years...

[madmac]

I honestly don't get the appeal of either Hinagiku or Athena. Hina is a fairly typical (and annoying) tsundere, and despite the massive screentime brought on by her popularity she really doesn't seem to have developed that much or gotten anywhere with Hayate. And Athena... the way she treats Hayate and what she taught him about relationships back at the Royal Garden just seems distasteful and kind of creepy to me. :/

Right on. The thing with Hina for me is that:

A She's kinda seriously dull. Her personality is basically "Yay I'm perfect!" which sorta works as a parody background character but not as a serious character you're supposed to like and:

B The combination of "typical annoying tsundere" and "I'm actually so weak and vulnerable and naive guys, for serious even you might have a chance with me!" thing I find really off-putting in a way I have a hard time putting into words. I can understand the appeal but to me it comes off as an ugly sort of pandering. I'd like her more if she was just Miss Perfect even though she'd still be boring.

As for Athena, her arc is well done and I didn't get the creepy vibes...at first. Since then every omake appearance with her is just her "punishing" Hayate for some sort of perceived slight and now she comes off as a sadist and I'm not a fan of that. (Or rather, I'm totally fine with that for comedy purposes but it's not what I look for in a primary romantic interest.)

There's also the fact that her whole romance subplot with Hayate is backstory and thus basically cheating by the standards of romance stories. The real reason she won't end up with Hayate is because having a girl show up mid-way through and going "Haha We're actually sooooo totally in love before this series even started and no one else can ever compete and we're getting married now kthxbye!" is simply not done for obvious reasons. You get to play the old flame gambit for drama purposes and that's it or they take away your writers card.

All that said, I still like Hina when she's just a goofy background character and I've got no real beef with Athena outside of what I've stated. Hell, Alice has gone full sadist lately and I like it, so you know whatever.

Well, I just read some early volumes and I recognized something there that had been lacking the manga recently and can be affecting its quality: REFERENCES

There's actually still rather a lot of references, if more subtle, but overall the manga has moved away from being a pure parody quite some time ago. I don't think that's a bad thing, straight parodies are inherently shallow and can't sustain themselves all that long before burning out. Introducing more plot and character development is a natural thing to maintain interest over the long term instead of milking the same jokes forever. Even as someone who reads this mostly for the comedy I think it's a good thing. I wouldn't complain if we got more action/comedy segments like we had early in the manga, though. Hayate isn't as active a main character as he used to be, and I'd like to see him doing stuff more.

Still the thing with this manga is that HnG is already really friggen old for a comedy series. It's almost caught up with Ranma 1/2 and most people burned out on that a long time before it ended. By the time it ends it's likely going to be rivaling Inuyasha for length which is honestly kinda insane for the genre it's in.

Which is why even though I still enjoy the series I don't think it's a bad thing that a lot of people have found themselves moving on. The manga has been running almost a decade, it's natural for a lot of people to lost interest or find that their tastes have changed. It's why I dropped Naruto even though I thought it was friggen awesome 8 years ago. I can talk about the anime choking on filler and problems with the story direction and underusing certain characters and that's all true, but the real reason is that I'm just not into it anymore, and that's fine.

[GlassesLady]

Originally Posted by madmac

As for Athena, her arc is well done and I didn't get the creepy vibes...at first. Since then every omake appearance with her is just her "punishing" Hayate for some sort of perceived slight and now she comes off as a sadist and I'm not a fan of that. (Or rather, I'm totally fine with that for comedy purposes but it's not what I look for in a primary romantic interest.)

My problem with Athena... well, let me put it this way: Remember that scene where Hayate talks about his backstory with Athena to Hina and the idiot trio, telling them how she drilled it into his head with violence that only those who could keep their girlfriends rich and happy forever or whatever deserved to have one, and Hina and the trio are like "well that's fucked up"? I'm with Hina and friends on that one. :/

The continuing sadism doesn't help, as you mentioned. Tsunderes make terrible love interests, which is why I'm glad Nagi has grown out of most of that.

[madmac]

My problem with Athena... well, let me put it this way: Remember that scene where Hayate talks about his backstory with Athena to Hina and the idiot trio, telling them how she drilled it into his head with violence that only those who could keep their girlfriends rich and happy forever or whatever deserved to have one, and Hina and the trio are like "well that's fucked up"? I'm with Hina and friends on that one. :/

Honestly, that's a totally fair point and I see where you're coming from. Now I'm beginning to wonder if Hata started ramping up the sadism because he thought people were missing the point. Wouldn't be the first time.

The continuing sadism doesn't help, as you mentioned. Tsunderes make terrible love interests, which is why I'm glad Nagi has grown out of most of that.

Seriously. Nagi mostly getting over being tsundere after she broke the stone is probably my favorite development in the manga overall. Like you I'm very curious to see her reaction to the scene with Ruka.

[GlassesLady]

Originally Posted by madmac

Honestly, that's a totally fair point and I see where you're coming from. Now I'm beginning to wonder if Hata started ramping up the sadism because he thought people were missing the point. Wouldn't be the first time.

An interesting theory, and I do hope we'll get to see how it pans out. :3 By the way, how close are we to having Alice turn back into Athena?

Seriously. Nagi mostly getting over being tsundere after she broke the stone is probably my favorite development in the manga overall. Like you I'm very curious to see her reaction to the scene with Ruka.

It was actually the "Radical Dreamers real side" chapters where Nagi mostly grew out of her tsundereness. (Of course I can't remember most of the scanlated-only manga but I can remember a Nagi thing. Of course.)

[madmac]

An interesting theory, and I do hope we'll get to see how it pans out. :3 By the way, how close are we to having Alice turn back into Athena?

Hata could always handwave it a bit, but lets see...The manga showdown will happen on August 14th, currently the manga is at August-whatever not 14 yet.

Checking my wayback-machine, Alice showed up on May 22. So basically a week after the competition, give or take. No wonder Machina just emerged. Factor in all the other plot threads and Nagi needing a new stone and we're looking at a conclusion to the summer arc very quickly.

It was actually the "Radical Dreamers real side" chapters where Nagi mostly grew out of her tsundereness. (Of course I can't remember most of the scanlated-only manga but I can remember a Nagi thing. Of course.)

I...I never made that connection, but you're exactly right. It makes perfect sense now that you've pointed it out.

Man, that plot thread goes back a long way, too. At least as far back as Sakuya's birthday Nagi was still brooding and insecure about the whole thing. Sometimes you really do have to give Hata credit. He set that up all the way back in Volume 4 and used it as the backbone of Nagi's character arc through Mykonos to now.

[bowow0708]

The manga showdown will happen on August 14th, currently the manga is at August-whatever not 14 yet.

According to the latest chapter, when Nagi sees Hayate hugging Ruka from behind it's the 5th of August.

Honestly, that's a totally fair point and I see where you're coming from. Now I'm beginning to wonder if Hata started ramping up the sadism because he thought people were missing the point. Wouldn't be the first time.

As for Athena's sadism, to me it seemed a bit more of a front or a reaction when she gets caught up in a moment, than someone who's truly sadistic(If anyone's sadistic in HnG, that title goes to Aika). She might probably be just as much a Masochistic/submissive when she really opens up. The sadism is a part of her personality, but it never really seemed to be a huge part of it. She also probably grew out of it when she got older.

If we're still a bit on which girl is the best for Hayate topic, my vote goes to Izumi!

[GlassesLady]

Originally Posted by bowow0708

As for Athena's sadism, to me it seemed a bit more of a front or a reaction when she gets caught up in a moment, than someone who's truly sadistic(If anyone's sadistic in HnG, that title goes to Aika). She might probably be just as much a Masochistic/submissive when she really opens up. The sadism is a part of her personality, but it never really seemed to be a huge part of it. She also probably grew out of it when she got older.

Then that falls into the same problem as Hina, with the pandering- "hey guys, this girl is tough and abrasive but she'll let you dominate her". Also, we've seen no sign that she's changed much since 10 years ago... and even if she has, completely offscreen development is generally considered cheap writing and a bad thing.

[Sol Falling]

I wouldn't really say a couple omake appearances in the midst of hundreds of chapters without much of a presence is pandering...or maybe it is, but I can't see why you'd begrudge that when there's been hardly any Athena in the story otherwise.

As for reasons as to why Athena might've changed, there's the obvious factor of how her exaggerated expectations/treatment of Hayate was based on their relationship at the beginning, leading up to the misunderstanding which resulted in them being separated in the Royal Garden; whereas the Athena of now is not only one who had wallowed in despair and regret of pushing away Hayate but was even saved by him thanks to the King Midas incident. Athena's present-day interactions with Hayate are overwhelmingly characterized by her longing after having been separated from him for so long and her gratitude for everything he's done for her rather than the 'unreasonable' expectations she had for him as a child. The omakes should be taken as just that -- omakes amounting to a couple humourous instances of tsundere or jealousy rather than a characterization of her actual relationship with Hayate.

[Used Can]

I don't think her expectations of him back then were even real, as she clearly liked being with him.
I think it was just her way of saying that a man should be responsible. The whole deal about him having to go to huge extents was likely just there to be taken humorously, and not seriously (like Hayate did).

As for Hinagiku, she's grown a lot. I think you could hardly call Nagi or Hina right now tsundere. They haven't been tsundere for the longest time now.

[bowow0708]

Originally Posted by GlassesLady

Then that falls into the same problem as Hina, with the pandering- "hey guys, this girl is tough and abrasive but she'll let you dominate her". Also, we've seen no sign that she's changed much since 10 years ago... and even if she has, completely offscreen development is generally considered cheap writing and a bad thing.

Well I don't think Hina and Athena are entirely like that. They're not something you can break like a wild horse. They won't let you dominate them, you can't really do that with either girl since their personalities just won't let you, but they can show you their weaker side that they know and trust that only you can be gentle with. They're more like shells, hard and rough on the outside yet still beautiful that make you admire them. But on the inside is a soft and tender interior with a very beautiful and delicate pearl inside. It takes care and a certain finesse, that Hayate possesses, to open up those shells to see what those hard beautiful shells have hidden inside. Considering both of these girl's pasts, I really think this analogy is appropriate for them.

I've seen Athena change quite a bit compared to when she and Hayate first met. Back when they were kids her personality was much like Nagi's early on in the manga. Being overreactive, easily jealous, etcetera. But unlike Nagi she held a certain tenderness for Hayate as well as a need for him, being alone trapped in the castle. When Athena and Hayate met in Mykonos, both before and after the battle when Midas took over her body, I could definitely see that she has changed a lot in the 10 years. She had a more mature feel to her, a much greater air of grace, she had also shown a bit more vulnerability. She had gone from a bit of a sadist to a more reserved and shy-ish girl towards Hayate. Though, I liked the part where she got angry when she asked him what was the first thing he noticed about her when he saw Athena, but it was pretty understandable that she'd react that way.

I don't think her expectations of him back then were even real, as she clearly liked being with him.
I think it was just her way of saying that a man should be responsible. The whole deal about him having to go to huge extents was likely just there to be taken humorously, and not seriously (like Hayate did).

We have no idea what her upbringing was like before she was trapped in the Royal Garden, so we don't know why she told Hayate all the unreasonable things back when they were kids. Maybe that was what she was told to look for in a guy that she wants to marry, and since Hayate lacked those traits then she decided to drill it into him, even though it was through unreasonable means, like a kick to the gut to teach him about being able to be rich enough to support a girl for the rest of her life.

[Kakurin]

Well, what a revelation. Ruka continues her life as idol! Big surprise - not, since we already know this from CTMEOY.

[mitsuganae]

I'm pleasantly surprised by how Hata has managed to stay on target for the last handful-or-so chapters. Whoever is enhancing his food/drink with prozac should keep it up!

Too bad there isn't much suspense in Ruka's big decision, though I suppose it's possible that she retires for a few weeks and then changes her mind in time for CTMEOY.

As for all the seafaring vehicle talk that has transpired, I'll say this (as I've said before): harem antics are spices that are too often confused for the main ingredient. Hell, god knows how many works of fiction of all sorts use "romance" as a means to tell a message that has little to do with such gooeyness. Now who is the idiot who came up with the observation/rule/truism/whatever that every movie (and by extension, every work of fiction) has to have a love story (or six)? In other words, it could be said that what passes for love nowadays is nothing more than a lowest common denominator.

P.S.: To madmac and GlassesLady: good points, as always.

[ChampDream]

so Ruka was about to quit, but his heart cry to stop her from quitting

[Shadow5YA]

Seems like a pretty generic "my heart tells me otherwise" development. Like Nagi said a while back, we already knew it was going to happen because of the CTMEOY anime.

[madmac]

I'm pleasantly surprised by how Hata has managed to stay on target for the last handful-or-so chapters. Whoever is enhancing his food/drink with prozac should keep it up!

I'm glad we're still chugging along, but man the train feels slow when you've got consecutive two week breaks. Still, hard to imagine we've got more then 1-2 chapters until Ruka and Nagi's storylines converge again.

With all the loose ends that need to be tied up I'm mildly hopeful that we'll get through the end of the summer arc from here with a minimum of filler.

Um anyway good chapter. It's a pretty typical sort of development, but the way it was handled made it really nice.

I agree. It was well done even if it was predictable.