2009-07-11, 15:03 | Link #1181 | ||||
Has a life IRL
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
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The choices of the dissidents are to accept and adapt, to accept and resent but retain the right to leave, or to leave. Just because they don't like it doesn't mean they have to leave. If they stay, though, they'll have to play by the new rules. Just like anyone else in a country where a controversial new law is passed. Quote:
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Though from your tone, I'm not sure you think anyone would do that, so... Quote:
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2009-07-11, 15:54 | Link #1182 | |||
Rawrrr!
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: CH aka Chocaholic Heaven
Age: 40
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And anyway even if the idea of a "space reservation" was implemented, people would have to hide, desperate not to be noticed, because to work toward it's objective: Final Peace, the DP would have to be implemented on the whole solar system. (Darn, this idea of "reservation" for the discontents of an "ideal" society just reminds me of Heinlein.) Let's say disagreeing people were allowed to leave for the asteroid belt or the outer solar system, what would deter them from building a nation? Nation which, being based on values contrary to the DP, would be resolutely hostile toward the DP, with a new large scale war possible. For the DP to work, no such community, colony or nation would be allowed to congeal. And anyway Requiem would require nothing more than an upgrade or a "sisterweapon" to have the whole solar system in range. (A lot of points taken from Crossbone Gundam here ) Quote:
And for it to work, discontent cannot be allowed to be voiced. Leaving people thus oppressed. Saying that all is gonna be happy if you all got to do what you are best at is pure idealism crap that doesn't work on humans, who have dreams, ambitions, and are most of the time irrationals... Quote:
-individual freedom -police state necessary to eliminate eventual menace. -intelligence agency required to track eventual menace down to peoples minds if necessary. -bureaucracy and aforementioned agency large enough to cover a stellar empire. -special police force to eliminate factions/menace (FAITH?). -Large Weapon of Doom to eliminate/subjugate factions/menace.
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2009-07-11, 16:25 | Link #1183 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Orb said no to the Destiny Plan, and Durandal got pissed but had to Requiem EA first. After seeing his big gun Orb moblized to stop him. What do you not see about that? Please watch episode 48 again and tell me that Durandal does not look like he plans to force Orb to join the Destiny Plan or die.
Of course you seem to think the entire world should have embraced the Destiny Plan no questions asked. Even if they had previously had reason to find Durandal untrustworthy. And even if they had previously happy non evil lives and had no reason to wage war. In fact the whole Clyne Faction seems to think the DP is great idea from their conversation and the only snag was that Durandal was behind it and they didn't trust him to play fair. And then not 5 minutes later he reveals that he took the weapon that had killed tons of his people and was willing to use it. Then they decided to act because Orb would refuse the plan (because they didn't trust Durandal not because they thought it was bad) and that meant that it would probably get Requiemed. So they attacked purely to Destroy Requiem and then Neo Genesis as it turned out Durandal built his own WMD. I believe humanity is inheritly good and there is no reason at all to put other people out. The bad people will get God's judgement on them. Guess I'm an anarchist. |
2009-07-11, 17:40 | Link #1184 | ||||||||||||
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
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No one is saying their going to be thrown out of an airlock. It's in the DP's own interest to have a release valve, so they can provide what's needed. Doing so, in fact, let's them keep a great deal of influence over the frontier. Quote:
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B) The DP can keep a great deal of influence over the frontier just by facilitating it, and can easily keep the dissidents from congealing into a nation. Just by building colonies spread across the system from Plut to Mercury, the DP can keep the dissidents separate. Follow that with basic things from trade preferences to political and economic support, and you can keep the individual colony groups divided. [QUOTE] Like exposed above, world-government is not nearly enough, stellar-government is already required at this point, and even interstellar depending on the technology. And for it to work, discontent cannot be allowed to be voiced. Leaving people thus oppressedWho says discontent can't be voiced? Successful authoritarian states know how to strike a good balance of public discontent and keeping to a unyielding ideology. Consider Singapore, for example; not a western liberal democracy, but not overly oppressive police state either. Quote:
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No one is denying that Durandle would have crushed Orb after it decided to fight him. Quote:
Who is happy with the status quo? But yes, the Seed people deserve the Destiny Plan. Quote:
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2009-07-11, 19:29 | Link #1185 |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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You know what? I am done with the argument. Everything I want to say has been said. It appears there are those who think it is a great idea to rule through violence and "remove" people who disagree with them, and that somehow that would make everyone happy. I guess I will never understand such people.
And don't give me the "But the Director say it would work!" mess. The Director said there would be peace, he didn't say the world would be better off. Destiny Plan is just a world-conquest plan, plain and simple. You can't have wars if there is only one faction in the world. So as long as everyone exists under a single ruling system, it doesn't matter what system it is; there would be peace as long as people who disagree are "weeded out and removed". (My oh my, that sounded like the A-Laws, doesn't it?) I wonder how many people who like Destiny Plan actually know much about what it feels like to live in a truly Tyrannical society? It is sad that they would equate "making difficult choices in life" in a democracy with "having the State making choices for you" in a Despotic government.
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2009-07-11, 20:52 | Link #1186 | ||||
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But hey, you and I both know that trying to have the final word is best. "I am done with the argument. Everything I want to say has been said..." followed by a series of strawmen, misatributations, and insinuations? Yes, way to be done with the argument. |
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2009-07-11, 22:55 | Link #1188 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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And that's where I found it impossible to reconcile with your idea. What is the purpose of Destiny Plan? To bring about world Peace. How could Destiny Plan be implemented? By global control and manipulation of the entire population. And here's the crunch; once global control of the population is complete, the Destiny Plan becomes pointless. A "domestic management system" does not stop wars, because wars are not domestic affairs. As soon as a war start, Destiny Plan stops. There would be no war for Destiny Plan to prevent, because all opposition has to be eradicated to begin with. If Destiny Plan doesn't work unless everyone cooperate, then it can't foster cooperation. If an on-going war prevents Destiny Plan, then Destiny Plan can't stop wars. In short, how the Destiny Plan is brought about is NOT separate or distinct from the plan itself, because the Plan itself can't be maintained without keeping the draconian enforcement that starts it.
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2009-07-11, 23:33 | Link #1189 | ||||
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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2009-07-12, 10:49 | Link #1190 |
yare yare..
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
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Ah haa.
I always come at a right timing - the end. Agreeing with 4Tran, those are really good points, Vallen Chaos Valiant. You've actually made this all worth reading (although I skipped the most part where there were constant repetition; I've had my amount of personal experience, too). To keep myself on-topic, GSD didn't fail, really, if there are still people around to discuss about how it failed and whether Destiny Plan was a masterpiece or not. As of now, it's been a few years, and even I am already in university... turning into a student who doesn't watch as many anime as I used to. But I do remember, that the Destiny Plan from SEED Destiny will never work.. mainly because it never did in the anime. The ending.... Durandal, the saint is dead. Kira and Lacus succeeded in their hidden tyranny. Shinn has been brainwashed by Kira. Rey will not be there anymore to snap him out of it because Kira accidentally, evilly, indirectly rendered him to kill Durandal and suicide. Athrun continues to being a puppet by Kira, making him new Tori(s) and Lacus new Haro(s) every day. That's what happened, right?
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2009-07-12, 15:49 | Link #1192 | ||
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Edit: I don't think anyone here actually thinks the Destiny Plan could ever really work in anything resembling reality. But it's part of a fictional setting, and so it has to be treated as if it does, just like anyone who reads Dune has to accept a inter-galactic caste/aristocracy based on a unique drug that can't be synthesized, or anyone into Starwars has to accept the Force, and fantasy readers often have to accept noble monarchs and monarchies who, despite being replete with Enlightenment concepts, never have to face the consequences that the Enlightenment brought about (the end of Monarchies). Double edit: Or the Star Trek transporters being treated as shiny elevators rather than effective tools for immortality, cloning, and an end to material shortages, or Terminator's complete lack of timeline continuity, or... Last edited by Dean_the_Young; 2009-07-12 at 15:59. |
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2009-07-12, 15:56 | Link #1193 |
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Well, since GSD's finale depended on a showdown between a logically impossible system and other, similar hypocritical idealists without a plan to peace, that counts as total failure for political thriller villain in my book.
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2009-07-12, 19:11 | Link #1194 |
Photomancy Experiments
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Balanga City, Bataan, Philippines
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GSD was a failure, only because the writer, and director were not consistent with whether Kira and co. did the right thing. At one time, they say that Kira and co. have been corrupted, but months after that statement, they say otherwise. Now if they made this clear, we wouldn't have trouble defining what GSD achieved.
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2009-07-12, 20:30 | Link #1195 | ||||
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2009-07-12, 22:43 | Link #1196 | ||||
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The Destiny Plan is offered out of the blue towards the end of the series as a means to ensure peace. Lacus and company don't deny it, but deny that it's worth the cost of freedom and happiness and rainbows from the blood of the world and all that. The side material merely expands on the plot device by confirming that it actually would work if enacted. Call it bad writing if you want (I don't mind: I consider GSD bad writing anyway, but not for impossible political machinations), but it is the writing you have. Quote:
You can make a case for other characters as well (Rau saying everyone should die but sought to extend his own life), but those are the big ones in my memory. Quote:
But yeah, I agree that Destiny should have clearly addressed a number of things in Destiny, but that it fell well short due to bad writing. One reason why I consider it to have failed. |
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2009-07-12, 23:06 | Link #1197 | |||||||
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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It's also that the Astray manga is a subordinate work to Destiny. Hence if there are any contradictions between the two, it would speak poorly of Astray, not the parent work. As such any discussion regarding the Destiny version of the Destiny Plan should be done solely with facts from the show itself, and not the manga.
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The other side of the equation is how much an idea is implausible, and how the plausibility of the idea is treated. In the former case, the Destiny Plan is exceedingly implausible (well, outright impossible) because it ignores all lessons of history and human nature. In some cases, this wouldn't be that much of an issue (depending on the viewer's experience), but it really stands out because the show itself begs the question of whther implementing will solve anything. The rest of the points you bring up in terms of setting are nowhere nearly as egregious, and are relatively solid for that matter. Quote:
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As for Mwu's war crimes, what do you posit them as being? Quote:
Incorrect. Supplemental material should be ignored unless it is consistent with the primary material. If the supplemental material is really poor, I don't really see the point of taking it into account either unless the creator insists that it's canonical.
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2009-07-12, 23:55 | Link #1198 |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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The whole Kira and Lacus appear scream stop fighting and shoot everyone is a massive flanderization which is a result of people getting their portrayals in Seed and Destiny confused, watching CB in action in 00, and exagerating character traits in general. Games such as DWG2 and SRWZ seem have accepted these traits as fact when they really aren't.
In actuality in Destiny their goals in battle were as follows 13: Protect themselves from the Ash team. 23 and 28: Stop the Orb forces from waging war against while preventing them from getting wiped out. They placed priority on Zaft lives over Orb, but its not like Zaft wouldn't do the same thing in reverse. Kira only shot at people that were attacking him Cagalli or AA first he wasn't trying to pick a fight with everyone. Despite what haters say they were not in fact trying to stop the battle in general. In fact Kira and AA try to prevent Minerva from getting wiped out as well (though destroying their main gun to prevent Orb from getting totally destroyed because as I said Orb lives have priority) until Shinn starts shooting at them and basically ruins any chance of alliance (he also ruined any chance of Orb standing down as he pissed everyone off by shooting at Cagalli) 32: Save Berlin. Since they got there first halted Destroy's advance and conviently took out Neo and Sting for Shinn, he should have been a bit more grateful. Yeah Stellar died but she was a lost cause to begin with. 34: Defending themselves. Arugably had Zaft not attacked them here and damaged AA and destroying Freedom they could have taken back Orb earlier and prevented Djbril from getting there at all. 39: Saving Eternal from Zaft. 40-43: They were preventing a Zaft takeover of Orb while at the same trying to capture Djbril. They repeatedly asked for a ceasefire (which Zaft ignored as they wanted to take over Orb anyway) Had Zaft stopped their attack and let Cagalli's people try to deal with Djibril they might have stopped him but insisting on pressing the attack allowed him to get away. Final Battle: They are attacking Requiem to destroy it and prevent it from destroying Orb or forcing it into accepting the DP. At all points except when defending themselves they are fighting for Orb. They weren't trying to "Stop Fighting" |
2009-07-13, 00:37 | Link #1200 | |||||||||
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You didn't. I asked for what the contradictions are, and you merely just said if there are contradictions, it speaks badly of the supplementary work. That isn't a contradiction between the works, it's a policy for judgement if contradictions do arise.
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I'm not the writing cast, who were clearly struggling and weren't able to write the series as they intended. I'm not the Director, who's openly said that the series didn't go the way he wanted it to go. I'm not Bandai and those behind the franchise, who put out the Ashtray side stories. But I can think of a number of reasons why they would put something like that in a sidestory, ranging from that it didn't matter in that it wouldn't change the effect of the story (having disaffected witnesses say the Destiny Plan works really doesn't change Lacus's point and selfjustification for fighting) to they felt that the show badly presented it/audience misinterpreted what was presented and they felt that a sidestory manga was an acceptable place to put in their view. It's fine to say that if it's important, it should have been included in a good writing. But Destiny isn't good writing, and whether the Destiny Plan is in anyway a workable technology/system isn't anymore important to the story than mecha or coordinators. Less so, actually, because what was important was that the Lacus faction wouldn't like the freedom tradeoff and Shinn (the protagonist) would lose everything but Luna. That the Destiny Plan is already successfully in place on Mars isn't important to the Destiny storyline (where Mars never even gets mentioned). But that doesn't mean that Mars and what the Destiny Plan is can be entirely ignored when the topic of discussion is the Destiny Plan. Quote:
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On another side, a tiny, newly formed volcanic island in the Pacific with no natural resources or prior settlement has become a major power, with infrastructure and technology matching or surpassing all the rich, established superpowers who have had centuries of development and actually have their own affordable natural resources. And that island country is ruled by a heriditary aristocracy which encourages marriages between cousins to keep their hand on power. Despite supposedly being the most politically enlightened people on the planet. Yeah, Seed and Destiny are full of bunk, and it starts well before the Destiny Plan even was mentioned. Quote:
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Oh, and razing Berlin and other major European cities with the intent for massive civilian casualties. Can't forget that. Quote:
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