Aldnoah.Zero - Anime Spoilers & Speculation

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Arya

(A bit late as usual) I didn't know about Godwin's Law at all, and I don't care much to make comparisons with Nazi Germany either, but surely Saazbaum is a criminal responsible of a genocide, he has not explicitly aimed to the extermination of the human kind, but the result is the same. We could in fact assume that human kind's become an endangered species without sounding exaggerated.

I like how you are ignoring that Saazbaum didn't do anything except trying to get the rid of the princess and evidence of her assassination. That was all the doing of those loyal knights like Cruhteo (Vlad even violated a ceasefire order from the Emperor because he wanted to regain "his honor"). Saazbaum's men, when they attacked the russian headquarters, they did not go after civilians when they could have. They didn't meteor bomb from space, when they could have. They were after Asseylum spefically. They even spared Eddelrittuo when she surrendered. The actions of the forces depend of who is in charge of them: Saazbaum can't mind control people and he was an horrible judge of character to entrust Slaine to that castle. Cruhteo was actually wishing to hunt down innocent people even after he conquered the territory (and Slaine objected and got beaten). That Count in Beijing, on the other hand, gave a chance to surrender without killing them.

You can't blame Saazbaum for the propaganda Asseylum's family fed for generations and something Asseylum didn't do anything to stop. She was incapable of standing up for her friend in episode 1 when Eddelrittuo badmouthed Slaine and Terrans, she is truly as guilty as her father and her grandfather for perpetuating this system. I'm fully with Saazbaum in destroying the royal family to cut the evil from its roots, but he had an ulterior reason to look for this, so he would have never been successful. Also, while it's unfortunate Terrans are having a bad time, it would have probably been a more 'clean' invasions without that festering hatred and xenophobia that was sold to the Counts and Orbital Knights who are under the belief (thanks to the royal family) that Terrans are subhuman. Nonetheless countries invading less advanced technology ones for their resources happen all the time even in the present. I'm sure you don't need me to point out examples

Originally Posted by Arya

And by the way I didn't say Slaine condoned Saazbaum's, but that he didn't take it into account in that moment, but that is enough for me to judge him about his subsequent specifical action, namely saving Saazbaum's life.
So, starting from that, I'm expecting that they will address it in some way or another. I'm referring to the mass murder.

The action Aoki Ei said you can't blame Slaine for it?

[monster]

Saazbaum can be blamed for restarting the war, causing unnecessary deaths.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by monster

Saazbaum can be blamed for restarting the war, causing unnecessary deaths.

The war was going to start anyway. They were looking for any excuse, you know. Do you honestly believe that WWI (the war the show has pushed as parallel) wasn't going to start if the Archduke Franz Ferdinand hadn't been assassinated? Please. What Saazbaum did was to kill two birds with one stone, however the way the invasion was done it depended on the knights. They exterminated Terrans because they don't consider them human beings and that's thanks to Asseylum and her family.

[Marsala]

Originally Posted by Thess

The war was going to start anyway. They were looking for any excuse, you know. Do you honestly believe that WWI (the war the show has pushed as parallel) wasn't going to start if the Archduke Franz Ferdinand hadn't been assassinated? Please. What Saazbaum did was to kill two birds with one stone, however the way the invasion was done it depended on the knights. They exterminated Terrans because they don't consider them human beings and that's thanks to Asseylum and her family.

Nothing is truly inevitable; if the Cuban missile crisis had caused WWIII, a lot of historians would now say that it was inevitable, too. Saazbaum still forced the war to start. He plotted the assassination. He gave the "we must avenge this!" speech. If a German baron had plotted the assassination of Franz Ferdinand in order to trigger hostilities, then WWI would definitely have been his fault.

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Thess

I like how you are ignoring that Saazbaum didn't do anything except trying to get the rid of the princess and evidence of her assassination.
[...]

Eh, but the whole war started because of his plan to assassinate the princess, the fact that it wasn't his primary goal doesn't take away anything from the final outcome and the blame. As I said, the result is the same of genocide.
Surely he knew that the loyal knights was waiting for the slightest excuse to attack Earth and also knew what the loyal knights would have done if someone had given them that excuse. And he exactly did give them what they wanted. He is the one who schemed it all.

Also getting rid of the princess he stopped the, even if remote, chance of a peaceful resolution. Asseylum was trying to start a peaceful path to resolve the conflict, but she couldn't even start, thanks again to him. He severed that slight chance Asseylum was trying to take. What if she could have gone forward with it? Now we could only say that it would have been a very fragile path.

He later manipulated the Emperor that had just called a truce to resume that same war. So excuse me if I don't care much about the fact that he had some war code or whatnot.
He is the first responsible of the mass murder (together surely with Asseylum grandfather's and his propaganda). Without him we could had been watching Asseylum path instead.

[Lhklan]

Originally Posted by Thess

I like how you are ignoring that Saazbaum didn't do anything except trying to get the rid of the princess and evidence of her assassination. That was all the doing of those loyal knights like Cruhteo (Vlad even violated a ceasefire order from the Emperor because he wanted to regain "his honor"). Saazbaum's men, when they attacked the russian headquarters, they did not go after civilians when they could have. They didn't meteor bomb from space, when they could have. They were after Asseylum spefically. They even spared Eddelrittuo when she surrendered. The actions of the forces depend of who is in charge of them: Saazbaum can't mind control people and he was an horrible judge of character to entrust Slaine to that castle. Cruhteo was actually wishing to hunt down innocent people even after he conquered the territory (and Slaine objected and got beaten). That Count in Beijing, on the other hand, gave a chance to surrender without killing them.

And I like how you are ignoring that Saazbaum's plan INCLUDED a war in the first place. His primary goal was to get rid of the royal family, but his plans include a war with Earth, resulting in a lot of death. The end does not justify the means at all.

Also, you're right that they didn't bomb Russian's HQ. They just dropped a Landing Castle on it instead. How many people died from that?

You can't blame Saazbaum for the propaganda Asseylum's family fed for generations and something Asseylum didn't do anything to stop. She was incapable of standing up for her friend in episode 1 when Eddelrittuo badmouthed Slaine and Terrans, she is truly as guilty as her father and her grandfather for perpetuating this system. I'm fully with Saazbaum in destroying the royal family to cut the evil from its roots, but he had an ulterior reason to look for this, so he would have never been successful.

And you can't blame Asseylum for the propaganda that her FATHER started. She didn't know about it - either because the Knights pretend to be polite while she's nearby or they told her that it's "normal" - And what can she do about it when she's just a Princess? She don't have any political power, her words are more than likely get dismissed as either the words of a child or being the result of Slaine's "poisonning" her mind.

I found it ridiculous that you would call her guilty of perpetrating this system even though she's actively trying to work for peace between them. If anything, she's already on her way to the right mindset - calling Earth "our distant home", she's just isn't there yet - ignoring Eldderittuo's insult to Earth and Terrans..

Also, while it's unfortunate Terrans are having a bad time, it would have probably been a more 'clean' invasions without that festering hatred and xenophobia that was sold to the Counts and Orbital Knights who are under the belief (thanks to the royal family) that Terrans are subhuman. Nonetheless countries invading less advanced technology ones for their resources happen all the time even in the present. I'm sure you don't need me to point out examples

Without that festering hatred and xenophobia, there wouldn't even be a war in the first place. Period.

Also, just because "countries invading less advanced technology ones for their resources happen all the time even in the present" does not make it right. At all. Especially considering the havoc it caused on Earth.

But here's the thing that's amusing to me: Despite Saazbaum saying that the circle of hatred should end, most of his actions ended up turning it anew.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Marsala

Nothing is truly inevitable; if the Cuban missile crisis had caused WWIII, a lot of historians would now say that it was inevitable, too. Saazbaum still forced the war to start. He plotted the assassination. He gave the "we must avenge this!" speech. If a German baron had plotted the assassination of Franz Ferdinand in order to trigger hostilities, then WWI would definitely have been his fault.

Oh dear, as a history teacher I'm a loss of war that you believe the countries wanted to go to WWIII when they were avoiding direct confrontation for a good reason. Just like I'm at loss that you believe that those knights even cared about Asseylum, aside of Cruhteo who was an exception. The war would have happened because the counts and knights wanted to wage war: Slaine immediately noticed it too. Because Mars needed supplies and the discontent was great. The Princess' assassination was the convenient excuse they needed and nothing else. Please learn how real countries work and how their geopolitics interests enter in play before actually trying to buy this. I speak to everyone who actually believes her death was nothing more than smoke screen for the issue.

Issue that she and her family are responsible for and they have to pay for it. I haven't seen Asseylum correct Eddelrittuo's racism and xenophobia, not just toward Slaine but toward everyone, Inaho included. If she's incapable to scold a 12 years old who works for her and cherish her, she's a willing participant of the problem she keeps perpetuating. She'll need a complete overhaul as character or to martyr herself.

Originally Posted by Lhklan

And I like how you are ignoring that Saazbaum's plan INCLUDED a war in the first place. His primary goal was to get rid of the royal family, but his plans include a war with Earth, resulting in a lot of death. The end does not justify the means at all.

For resources, of course. However, he never said they wanted to exterminate the Terrans. Saazbaum frowns at that kind of excessive xenophobic hatred, he's self-aware it exists.

The end does justice the means in politics. Please read Nobert Bobbio's Politic dictionary under the entry of "Politics" individual moral vs state ethics, what a statesmen should seek are results and by the results they are judged and not by their intention or their means. Don't try to apply childish moralistic notions in politics, the real world will explode in your face.

Originally Posted by Lhklan

Also, you're right that they didn't bomb Russian's HQ. They just dropped a Landing Castle on it instead. How many people died from that?

No one, because they dropped the castle away from the entrance when they could have starved them to death by landing on them. They had the coordinates, after all. They decided to spare them and seek Asseylum.

Originally Posted by Lhklan

And you can't blame Asseylum for the propaganda that her FATHER started. She didn't know about it - either because the Knights pretend to be polite while she's nearby or they told her that it's "normal" - And what can she do about it when she's just a Princess? She don't have any political power, her words are more than likely get dismissed as either the words of a child or being the result of Slaine's "poisonning" her mind.

I've explained already how Asseylum is guilty of negligence. She can't be assed to rule or even admonish her companion, she's just as bad as her father. Her silence and actual lack of initiative when she had a position of power in the past it's really disgusting.

Originally Posted by Lhklan

I found it ridiculous that you would call her guilty of perpetrating this system even though she's actively trying to work for peace between them. If anything, she's already on her way to the right mindset - calling Earth "our distant home", she's just isn't there yet - ignoring Eldderittuo's insult to Earth and Terrans..

When she actually displays she's trying to change her people, I'll buy it. So far, she's only reactive and only cared about Earth because she liked the fauna there. If she hadn't been victimized too, she would continue to not care. And she still doesn't schools down Eldderittuo, as if she approved her conduct. Sorry, but I'm to believe she's a consistently written character who cares so much about peace and coexistence when she can't tell her maid that's wrong? She's silently approving xenophobia and how you don't find this vile after what we know about her family when she should have as princess it's kind of... perplexing

Actually, Asseylum realizes it's her fault and she should be shot by Rayet. So I guess that's something.

Originally Posted by Lhklan

But here's the thing that's amusing to me: Despite Saazbaum saying that the circle of hatred should end, most of his actions ended up turning it anew.

He is self-aware of his sins. Why do you think he pointed to his head so Slaine would finish him off? Yet Slaine didn't do it.

[Lhklan]

"The end does justice the means in politics" "Don't try to apply childish moralistic notions in politics, the real world will explode in your face."

... Yeah, theses lines right here? I just know I will never agree with you.

Also, for the record? Childish moralistic notions? Condescending much?

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Lhklan

"The end does justice the means in politics" "Don't try to apply childish moralistic notions in politics, the real world will explode in your face."

... Yeah, theses lines right here? I just know I will never agree with you.

Also, for the record? Childish moralistic notions? Condescending much?

I'm shocked when people try to apply individualist moral to politics as if they had no knowledge of basic history of politics as philosophy and science. Of course I'm not condoning genocide because genocide is a crime against humanity. Keyword is humanity here. The important fact in the show is that, thanks to the royal family propaganda, Vers don't consider Terrans humans on-their-par which is exactly the source of the brutality of the invasions. This wasn't Saazbaum's doing, this was started by Asselyum's grandfather, scalated into virulent by her father and silenced by Asseylum who let her maid treat Terran as humanly inferiors without saying anything against it. It was not Saazbaum's doing; he owes up to his judgment, namely Slaine's judgment, so he's very self-aware. Nonetheless trying to say the "end doesn't justify the means" in politic ground is really inaccurate and without a grasp of reality or history and how governments have always proceed and keep proceeding. I'm not sure if we could apply realism to Aldnoah Zero, though.

[karice67]

Just a suggestion: why don't the two of you take it to the Vers characters thread, where it seems to belong, rather than here? Or perhaps ask for a thread on the politics of Aldnoah.Zero or something like that?

------

Returning to spoiler relevant stuff: in another special on A/Z from Febri magazine, one of the producers had a very interesting comment on Vs/022 (i.e. the image of Slaine released earlier this month).

Basically, he noted that a lot of fans are reflecting on how Slaine returned to Vers and moved up in that society, but an important question to consider is: when does that happen?

[leelee85]

Originally Posted by karice67

Just a suggestion: why don't the two of you take it to the Vers characters thread, where it seems to belong, rather than here? Or perhaps ask for a thread on the politics of Aldnoah.Zero or something like that?

------

Returning to spoiler relevant stuff: in another special on A/Z from Febri magazine, one of the producers had a very interesting comment on Vs/022 (i.e. the image of Slaine released earlier this month).

Basically, he noted that a lot of fans are reflecting on how Slaine returned to Vers and moved up in that society, but an important question to consider is: when does that happen?

Or for that matter why or who promoted him and is Saazabaum or the princess is really alive

[Marsala]

Originally Posted by Thess

I'm shocked when people try to apply individualist moral to politics as if they had no knowledge of basic history of politics as philosophy and science. Of course I'm not condoning genocide because genocide is a crime against humanity. Keyword is humanity here. The important fact in the show is that, thanks to the royal family propaganda, Vers don't consider Terrans humans on-their-par which is exactly the source of the brutality of the invasions. This wasn't Saazbaum's doing, this was started by Asselyum's grandfather, scalated into virulent by her father and silenced by Asseylum who let her maid treat Terran as humanly inferiors without saying anything against it. It was not Saazbaum's doing; he owes up to his judgment, namely Slaine's judgment, so he's very self-aware. Nonetheless trying to say the "end doesn't justify the means" in politic ground is really inaccurate and without a grasp of reality or history and how governments have always proceed and keep proceeding. I'm not sure if we could apply realism to Aldnoah Zero, though.

Saazbaum is as bad as the royal family since he instigated and carried out genocide even though he knew that it was wrong.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by karice67

Returning to spoiler relevant stuff: in another special on A/Z from Febri magazine, one of the producers had a very interesting comment on Vs/022 (i.e. the image of Slaine released earlier this month).

Basically, he noted that a lot of fans are reflecting on how Slaine returned to Vers and moved up in that society, but an important question to consider is: when does that happen?

Thanks, Karice. Are there scans to Febri magazine? The only scans I saw were two pages of Animedia.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Thess

The war was going to start anyway.

That is not a valid excuse. If you kill someone who was terminally ill, you would still be guilty of murder regardless if that person was going to die anyway.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Thess

Thanks, Karice. Are there scans to Febri magazine? The only scans I saw were two pages of Animedia.

Unfortunately, no. I've been skimming parts of the magazine to try and decide whether I want to buy it...

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by karice67

Just a suggestion: why don't the two of you take it to the Vers characters thread, where it seems to belong, rather than here? Or perhaps ask for a thread on the politics of Aldnoah.Zero or something like that?

------

Returning to spoiler relevant stuff: in another special on A/Z from Febri magazine, one of the producers had a very interesting comment on Vs/022 (i.e. the image of Slaine released earlier this month).

Basically, he noted that a lot of fans are reflecting on how Slaine returned to Vers and moved up in that society, but an important question to consider is: when does that happen?

You I'm beginning to find this funny. We get the magazines but because they either weren't too main stream or were recaps we just thought they didn't mean anything but now looking back we realize that they actually have information in them.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

You I'm beginning to find this funny. We get the magazines but because they either weren't too main stream or were recaps we just thought they didn't mean anything but now looking back we realize that they actually have information in them.

Well, I've personally always assumed that they'll have some interesting information... But it's not like I can afford to go and find them all.

Besides, I need to save what I know for those times when this thread seems to be getting hijacked yet again

[D-Joe]

Vs023 poster

Spoiler for Vs023:

[Death Usagi]

Well yes, Asseylum is alive but it seems she is bound to a wheelchair... D:

[leelee85]

Originally Posted by D-Joe

Vs023 poster

Spoiler for Vs023:

Someone care to explain With the whellchaired Princess