2012-10-23, 09:02 | Link #781 | |||
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2012-10-23, 09:17 | Link #782 |
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The most interesting bit for me will be that, how madoka's wich will get "undone", as far as witches speculation goes, I will have to re-check the wording of madoka's wish, but if it was limited to stopping mahou shoujo from becoming witches it's likely witches can appear by other means, just like mahou shoujo were able to be created from beings that are not human girls.
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2012-10-23, 17:04 | Link #787 | |
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Ultimately, this is the main reason I'm running with the narrative idea that I am.
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2012-10-23, 18:02 | Link #789 | |
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In any case, whether it's Madoka or her wish what is failing, that's just the trigger for the conflict. The movie will focus on the other girls, and particularly Homura. This time around it will be up to them to save the day imo.
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2012-10-23, 20:17 | Link #791 | |||||
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Also, the wording of Madoka's wish was very clear and precise. What loophole could you or Kazu-kun see there being with it? Quote:
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Madoka showed plenty of emotionality in her final post-wish shared scene with Homura. So Madoka clearly hasn't been turned into some unemotional being. If Madoka is capable of feeling positive emotions then on what basis do you say that she's not capable of feeling negative ones? Quote:
I'm not sure why you guys seem to be so against the idea. Honestly, I find this "wish loophole" idea to be really lame in comparison.
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2012-10-23, 21:29 | Link #793 | |||||
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Also, I've elaborated before. In the production notes for the anime, the Demons/Wraiths want to revive Witches. The audio trailer involves talk about Hitomi, "Her nightmare" and "This is like that Witch concept you described to me once." It's also claimed in the production notes that the Wraiths can possess humans and make them slaves. If these ideas are used in the movie, then the implication is that demons can possess humans and turn them into pseudo-witches that don't fall under Madoka's authority to remove. They wouldn't be former Magical Girls. Quote:
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"You're not just giving us hope...you're becoming Hope itself!" "Don't you realize how hard this fate is?" "Yes. But no matter what, if someone tells me not to hope, I'll tell them they're wrong every single time!" "I know a miracle can occur! That's what Magical Girls do!" Madoka possesses omniscence and temporal omnipresence. She has literally become Hope, and her one desire has been granted. She has no beginning or end and is now outside of causality, and is thus no longer subject to If>Then linear causality. If she is not in despair after seeing all possible moments in history, how could she EVER? Quote:
However, even if she accomplishes what she set out to do perfectly, she didn't fix EVERYTHING, and there's still plenty of drama to work with. Even Homura basically said that much. Ultimately the problem I have with your narrative is that in Puella Magi, the actions and intentions of the characters have significant moral and ethical weight, and people more-or-less reap what they sow. Yes, the Witch system is inherently unfair, but as Kyubey said, it was ultimately rooted in human selfishness and the shortcomings of the girls who took the bait. It was, ultimately, Sayaka's refusal to compromise on her absolute ideal, and wanting to save face and have the moral high ground even at the cost of actually accomplishing those moral goals, that caused her to become a Witch. Madoka's actions are the one thing that gave Gen Urobuchi hope in a secular, nihilistic, meaningless, temporary universe. A heavenly soul that can sing mankind's praises for all time. All else aside, I do not believe that man can take a shit on something that obviously means so much to him, and he's too good of a writer to not understand that undermining a protagonist's accomplishments for the sake of drama is bad writing. But you don't need to undermine Madoka to show the shortcomings of her accomplishments. You can deconstruct and disillusion her miracle without lessening it. People are still on the joy high of her salvation, but her salvation didn't do everything. You don't need to peel it away, and you don't gain anything from doing so. At best, it just returns the story to Square One and negates everything that happened. At worst, it insults the audience by negating the worth of their investment by showing a story that can't even live up to what it set out to do. The Reset Button is never a good writing device unless it was always your original intention and you build the story around pressing it. Madoka Magica is not one of those stories. The very concept of it was basically deconstructed with Homura, already. Madoka took a step forward. Don't drag her backwards for your sadism fetish.
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2012-10-24, 05:23 | Link #794 |
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Wow. This was such an elaborate and structured answer, I've rarely seen anything like this.
Are you into physics or something? Maybe philosophy? Anyway, since the first 2 movies are mostly behind us now, we gotta wait for the DVD's... anyone got some info, or even an estimate? Edit : oh, novelist... Gives you very diverse skills and definitely an edge in these kinda places, eh? |
2012-10-24, 08:18 | Link #795 | |||||||||||
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Madoka's wish was all about saving magical girls from becoming witches. Insofar as she accomplishes that, then her wish has been granted without any loopholes lessening it. When you talked about "something technical" and Kazu-kun talked about "a loophole in Madoka's wish", I thought the two of you were talking about the very spirit behind it being undone by some mere technicality, like a criminal getting off free due to some legal technicality. That struck me as very lame, and as the ultimate crapping on the ending of the original Madoka anime. But what you're suggesting here isn't a loophole in Madoka's wish, but rather something entirely outside of it. The Wraiths obviously are going to cause problems, and victimize some humans like witches themselves used to (using such humans as witch-esque puppets is not quite the same as the old magical girl/witch system either). That's entirely beside the point of Madoka's wish. What you're describing is basically what I initially hoped and expected the 3rd Madoka Movie to be about, since it would respect the ending to the original TV anime. But I just don't see what you're describing as fitting with the notion that "maybe Madoka took on more than she can be reasonably expected to handle", which struck me as saying that her emotional/psychological limitations will come into play here. Now, maybe whoever made that quote (which I'm admittedly just paraphrasing - If anybody can find the quote itself, I'd greatly appreciate it) just misspoke slightly, or maybe it was slightly mistranslated, or maybe it's even just a troll. But given the tiny tidbits we have to work with, it strikes me as good a place as any to start with in trying to determine what the third movie will be like. Edit: Ok, I found this. Ok, going by the specific wording there, it suggests to me that Madoka's role itself (i.e. "the responsibility of the burden she took on") is what is causing the problem. To me, that strongly suggests Madoka having problems coping with the new responsibility entailed with her new role. When we talk about people not being able to handle their "responsibilities", it typically means that their responsibility is too hard for them. Basically, I don't see how what your describing would manage to convey the idea that "maybe Madoka can't handle the responsibility of the burden she's taken on". Quote:
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And Madoka is becoming Hope itself... for magical girls. She is their hope. She's not offering universal salvation. She never was. She was simply becoming the hope of magical girls. Quote:
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Madoka's key moment in the original TV anime was her Episode 12 wish. That wish was the culmination of Madoka's sad and tragic, but very informative, journey through the world of magical girls while remaining human. The only way Madoka's relative inaction throughout that long journey can be justified is if the culmination of her journey (i.e. her wish) can be shown to be definitively worth it. In other words, the wish itself should be a carefully worded and effective wish that actually accomplishes everything that it is aiming to accomplish. And so it did, and so I want the wish to remain as such, as otherwise it makes Madoka look very foolish and much worse as a character. Now, one could reasonably argue that Madoka never thought her wish would create a paradox necessitating her becoming this transcendent being effectively cut off from the rest of humanity. Madoka emotionally descending given that role (which is obviously a lonely one) would not take anything away from the wisdom of her wish. Quote:
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Not at all. I want to preserve the value of Madoka's character and the ending to the original TV anime, and what is absolutely essential in that regard is preserving the wisdom of her wish. The specific details of the third movie as you speculate would be fine, but I don't really see how it fits with the quote I alluded to. In short, I hope that you're more or less right about what the third movie will be about, but I doubt that you are. And if you're not right, I'd rather the conflict of the third movie be rooted in understandable and sympathetic limitations in Madoka's character than be rooted in Madoka having made a stupid wish (this being what would truly undermine her character, imo).
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2012-10-24 at 09:44. Reason: Found quote, I think. |
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2012-10-24, 13:59 | Link #796 | |
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1) When Madoka's wish is being granted Kyubey tells Homura they're outside of time. 2) Kyubey mentions Madoka's "existence" has no beginning and no end (which again, doesn't mean immortality) 3) The obvious Buddhist references. Breaking out of causality is like the ultimate goal in this religion. 4) We saw Madoka collecting soul gems in the past, and when she tells Homura she's sure they'll meet again it's implied she has been in the future too. Basically, this means that Madoka is simultaneously in every point in time, past, present, and all possible futures. No only she has seen it all, but she has already been there too. The plot of the third movie... Madoka already knows it, or rather she has already experienced those moments. Some day Mami and Kyoko and even Homura will die and go with Madoka, but Madoka has already been there, and Mami and Kyoko and Homura and every other magical girl until the end of time is already with Madoka.... as paradoxical as that may seem. And that's the point. Madoka is a paradox in and of itself. That's why AuraTwilight said she's "cosmically static". Madoka can't despair because she will never experience something new; she has already experienced every moments of time, until the end of time and beyond... and she's fine.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2012-10-24 at 14:19. |
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2012-10-24, 14:29 | Link #797 | ||||||||||||
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Madoka basically knows literally everything, and from beginning to end of linear time, she in unchanging in her hopeful, messianic nature of saving Magical Girls and insisting that everything will be fine. And Eternity isn't anywhere near comparable. He doesn't have any control or awareness of time except what is revealed to him by time-related superdeities. He is explicitly said to have power over the present, only. Quote:
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"Mm-mm. Because now I know everything that ever has happened...and everything that ever will! I can see all possible timelines, and I can see everything you've done for me. All the crying, and all the pain, and all the obstacles you've went through! It's only becoming what I am now, that I can truly understand what you've done for me. Homura-chan, you really were my best friend!" You're not going to win this point. Madoka is absolutely omniscient. She says so herself, and Madoka doesn't tell lies. Quote:
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Will the Wraiths succeed? It's up to Homura to foil their plans. Quote:
It'd be like if Sayaka wished to heal Kyousuke and then some mugger ran through his house and cut off his hand like that serial killer from "Cartman's Incredible Gift". She bears absolutely no responsibility for what happened afterwards, and as much as it sucks that her wish didn't offer any extra protection, there is fundamentally nothing foolish on her inability to prevent this. Quote:
Madoka's religiously euphoric aura can be dismantled without lessening, weakening, or debasing her in any way. Quote:
And Madoka ultimately made her wish with a universal Agape for humanity in her heart. Madoka cares about everyone, and would rather everyone be happy. She is an eternal testament to how wonderful humans can be. Quote:
She is no longer the Madoka Kaname we saw through episodes 1-11. She composes the core of her being, as well as the Madokas of every other timeline, but in this sense she is more like Frederica Bernkastel, instead of Rika Furude. Y'know, without the colossal dumptruck full of Bitch. Quote:
Mami and Kyoko talked to Madoka before she technically became a deity. She reaped them in the future and got to talk to them before she collected anyone. My god, Madoka's existence is so fucking atemporal that when she left Homura in Episode 12....she probably went to Future-Dead-Homura for ghost lezzings. There's literally no way for Madoka to be depressed about anything. It's quite literally impossible for her to be apart from her loved ones. Quote:
Madoka is in no way a human being as we understand it. She's just empathetic enough to put on a near-perfect act when talking to mortals. That she can become what she is and not lose her 'humanity' makes her even more amazing; it means she has the best of both.
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2012-10-24, 20:24 | Link #799 | ||||||||||||
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Madoka's wish means that she has to save all magical girls "with her own hands". But the wish turns Madoka herself into a magical girl. As a magical girl, she's fated to either die or become a witch (the Puella Magi system itself leaves no other options). "Death", in any practical sense, is now an impossibility since it would get in the way of Madoka completing her own wish. So that leaves Madoka becoming a witch. But Madoka can't become that because it would also trump her wish, but magical girls can only die or become a witch... and so we have a paradox. To account for the paradox, Madoka ascends outside of time and destroys her own witch self. Kaname Madoka, the daughter of Junko, also ceases to exist to account for the paradox. But Madoka now exists outside of time simply to account for the paradox. But there's nothing about Madoka's wish that requires her to be literally omnipresent. Madoka's wish simply requires her to be at every point throughout past, present, and future in which a magical girl is about to become a witch. That's it. Quote:
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Why would Madoka have to be anywhere else? Her wish doesn't seem to require it, and I see no particular reason why she herself would want it. Quote:
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Here's a question - Does Madoka know what President Obama's current election strategy is? If so, why would she? What could that possibly have to do with Madoka's new role? Quote:
Madoka doesn't need to be lying here in order to possibly be incorrect. She simply needs to be trying to reassure herself (and sincerely believing her own reassurances), and there's nothing wrong with that. Quote:
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Why would a member of the movie production team even go so far as to say "it (the third movie) is based on the idea that Madoka may not be able to handle the responsibility of the burden she took on at the end of the TV series."? That definitely doesn't sound like a character with a completed character arc to me. Quite the contrary, it sounds like a character that they want to do more with. I respect that you have a certain interpretation of Madoka's character that you're fond of. And who knows, maybe the third movie will support that interpretation. But given that quote from a member of the movie production team, I have a hard time seeing how the interpretation that you and Kazu-kun have of Madoka can square with that quote. Both of you say that Madoka is incapable of feeling suffering anymore. Well then, what will you say if the third movie shows Madoka suffering?
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2012-10-24, 20:47 | Link #800 | |||||||||||||
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Also, Madoka is also aware of all wishes Magical Girls make, and seems to have the authority to 'save' them by erasing their having made wishes, if she thinks that is what they want. To prevent from unnecessarily hurting people, she would need knowledge as to what people's wishes actually means. "I wish Obama wins the election through good policy and honest campaigning." Madoka, in our hypothetical scenario, has the ability to negate this wish if Magical Girl Z gives her permission. Madoka must thus understand where the wish ends and where it begins, so she can undo it's having occurred. Quote:
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