[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Arachanox

I said that. "There is probably someone who is impersonating the young man during the events of 1986."

It doesn't necessarily have to be an impersonator. However unlikely, it's possible the baby did survive and really is the caller (or the mastermind ordering the caller around). If he/she is, obviously it's someone we've already seen before.

But even if it is the real thing, someone else (Kumasawa, another servant, Krauss, Kinzo) had to tell them about it, because as everyone's said obviously the baby won't know.

[LyricalAura]

If I remember correctly, the mystery caller was never especially concrete about who he was or what he was accusing Natsuhi of. Isn't there a possibility that he doesn't actually know about or have anything to do with the events of 19 years ago? It could be that he's just using a generic act to freak Natsuhi out, and the fact that she genuinely had a dead child to be freaked out about is just a horrible coincidence.

[Jan-Poo]

Yes the one that acts as the man of 19 years before must be in the island and therefore he is one of the 17 known persons.

That also means that there are a very few possibility for him to be the real baby.

It could be Battler, in case he's 1 year older than it is supposed.

or

It could be Kanon, if he looks significantly younger than what he actually is, or if he is a girl and therefore in her male disguise looks a lot younger.

It can hardly be Shannon, because when she was supposedly 6 years old she wouldn't pass as that if she was actually 9 years old.

it can hardly be Jessica, because well... Natsuhi clearly can tell the difference between the two.

It can't be anyone else of the known 17.

Isn't there a possibility that he doesn't actually know about or have anything to do with the events of 19 years ago?

That's a very remote possibility. She calls her "mother", he talks about 19 years before. it can't be a coincidence.

[Arachanox]

The baby could not have survived such a fall.

When falling three stories out of a window, it is understandable that it is possible to survive without life threatening injuries. However. Off a cliff, numerous yards down, onto a rocky surface below? I know I'm not being a good Umineko detective, but ridiculous. Furthermore, think of it this way: What if the baby survived? Then who went down the cliff and brought it back? And when they did, why didn't they say "Oh Kinzo, Natushi, look at this! The baby is alive! (or, if you want, 'I found a baby!' if they didn't know about it initially)."

I am really against its survival, however sad that may sound.

[Renall]

It could be George. He's in his early 20s, but he could probably affect the voice of a younger man than himself. If it's George of course it's almost a certainty he isn't actually the baby (and doesn't think he is).

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Arachanox

The baby could not have survived such a fall.

When falling three stories out of a window, it is understandable that it is possible to survive without life threatening injuries. However. Off a cliff, numerous yards down, onto a rocky surface below? I know I'm not being a good Umineko detective, but ridiculous. Furthermore, think of it this way: What if the baby survived? Then who went down the cliff and brought it back? And when they did, why didn't they say "Oh Kinzo, Natushi, look at this! The baby is alive! (or, if you want, 'I found a baby!' if they didn't know about it initially)."

I am really against its survival, however sad that may sound.

Natsuhi didn't hear the sound of them hitting the ground. Additionally she didn't see the corpses.
That could be a hint.

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Natsuhi didn't hear the sound of them hitting the ground. Additionally she didn't see the corpses.
That could be a hint.

Beatrice told her that she used her warp portal and killed them in the Golden Land, or some place that looked like it. Human memory is highly fallible, and in her highly stressed state at the end of EP5 she began to adapt her memory to Beatrice's words.

Of course, Beatrice was a delusion anyway, so what does that say about her mental health?

[Jan-Poo]

That you can't even trust that her story about the baby and maid who died is true.

After all, do you know anyone else who can support that story?

I still have the feeling that Battler saying "it' useless, it's all useless", was directed to Natsuhi's story and not to Erika's accusations. In other words Battler has found something that doesn't work in what Natsuhi told about what happened 19 years before.

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That you can't even trust that her story about the baby and maid who died is true.

After all, do you know anyone else who can support that story?

I still have the feeling that Battler saying "it' useless, it's all useless", was directed to Natsuhi's story and not to Erika's accusations. In other words Battler has found something that doesn't work in what Natsuhi told about what happened 19 years before.

In the way the human world seemed to parallel the magic world closely in EP5, wouldn't that imply the opposite?

[Jan-Poo]

Total lies can exist and be displayed as long as someone believe they are true.

We have an example with Natsuhi believing that Kinzo spoke kindly to her and telling her that the family crest is engraved in her heart. Thanks to Bern we know that it is completely false, and that means the whole scene in Ep1 is false.

The fact that no one can disguise as Kinzo prevents even the possibility that an impostor tricked Natsuhi.

That scene was false, plain and simple. It didn't happen.

[Arachanox]

Does that make Natsuhi a liar? Perhaps she believed she saw it. Then it makes her delusional.

She saw it -> it happened -> truthful
She didn't see it -> it happened -> ignorant
She saw it -> it didn't happen -> delusional
She didn't see it -> it didn't happen -> liar

[Jan-Poo]

I vote for "delusional". She is way too much trusting in the idea that she has been chosen to defend the honor of the Ushiromiya to be just pretending it happened. She doesn't go as far as to believing that Kinzo is still alive (I think) but she does seem to believe that Kinzo told her those words in his lifetime or that he would actually tell her those words (which apparently is also impossible).

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I vote for "delusional". She is way too much trusting in the idea that she has been chosen to defend the honor of the Ushiromiya to be just pretending it happened. She doesn't go as far as to believing that Kinzo is still alive (I think) but she does seem to believe that Kinzo told her those words in his lifetime or that he would actually tell her those words (which apparently is also impossible).

Kinzo may have never entrusted Natushi with honor, or with the one-winged eagle or anything, and he certainly did not praise her while he was alive. However, this is not to say that Kinzo would not praise her for her tremendous efforts after his death. Perhaps the "Kinzo" we see from Natsuhi is her seeing what she think Kinzo might have done in place of him actually being there. This doesn't make her delusional. It also doesn't mean she's a normal person. This would make her a complex individual who wants Kinzo to be alive, realizes that he is dead, and instead comes up with a sort of imaginary friend to keep her strong in tough times. She knows that it really isn't Kinzo, but she speculates at what Kinzo might have done, such as comfort and praise her. A complicated thought experiment, but it doesn't mean she's delusional. However, whether or not Natushi is delusional is something which we definitely can not know right now. "Delusional" seems to echo "Hinamizawa Syndrome," so I'm against it.

Does this make her a liar? Personally, I'm against that too.

Not delusional. Not a liar. Not truthful or ignorant either. 17<X<18.

[Kaiba]

Kinzo may have never entrusted Natushi with honor, or with the one-winged eagle or anything, and he certainly did not praise her while he was alive. However, this is not to say that Kinzo would not praise her for her tremendous efforts after his death. Perhaps the "Kinzo" we see from Natsuhi is her seeing what she think Kinzo might have done in place of him actually being there. This doesn't make her delusional. It also doesn't mean she's a normal person. This would make her a complex individual who wants Kinzo to be alive, realizes that he is dead, and instead comes up with a sort of imaginary friend to keep her strong in tough times. She knows that it really isn't Kinzo, but she speculates at what Kinzo might have done, such as comfort and praise her. A complicated thought experiment, but it doesn't mean she's delusional. However, whether or not Natushi is delusional is something which we definitely can not know right now. "Delusional" seems to echo "Hinamizawa Syndrome," so I'm against it.

As far as I'm concerned, that's just a matter of semantics, all the more so since Natsuhi definitely is not involved with the murders. At best, it's just Natsuhi deluding herself into thinking that what she's doing is what Kinzo's doing.
And I don't really have a problem with delusions, especially as Natsuhi is clearly not 100% sane anyways. It's just an unique situation that doesn't speak to any weird diseases.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Natsuhi and Genji would notice.




Let me premise that my point is there is no way to explain this mystery without acknowledging that what it's been shown is fake. You can state your theory if you acknowledge that, but in that way you open the way for many interpretations and not just your.

However if you think that your theory makes it work somehow without recurring to something that has been faked in the scenes then let me say this:

Your theory doesn't work. It is a fact that Eva was still knocking at Kinzo's door at 23:00. So if your theory is true that means in merely 20 minutes the scenes of Krauss restraining Eva happened, and then the family went all the way to see the gold, the discussion started and then they all returned to the mansion. In merely 20 minutes.
Not only that, in that amount of time Krauss and Natsuhi made themselves absent, Shannon and Kanon arrived with a serving cart they talked with the relatives, a knock was heard a letter with the ring was found etc etc.
All this in merely 20 minutes...

That doesn't work for me.

I thought when I said the bell ring was faked by GM, it meant that the truthness of some of the scenes was compromised anyway.

And my game showed that Eva knocked Kinzo's study at 22:47, not 23:00. So they had about 33 minutes to do all the things. Where did you find that 23:00 thing?

[LaplaceNoMa]

Originally Posted by Leinne

From ep2 rosa's explanation to get rid of everyone. the TIPs say, Jessica wasn't there, Battler was with Eva, the wolves and sheep puzzle (sth like this)
If you think about it it hints a very good part of the mystery in ep3 about Eva being the culprit.
Let's suppose you're alone in a room with just another person, everyone has been killed and you know you aren't the killer, then what does that make the other person?

You're wrong. The tips say:
Jessica lost her eyesight. He was with her. Wolves and sheep puzzle.

I find this line quite interesting.

[TTR]

Wait was the fact that Jessica was blinded ever a red truth?

[Escargotage]

Originally Posted by TTR

Wait was the fact that Jessica was blinded ever a red truth?

Jessica's eyes were completely blocked, and murder was impossible for her

Used by Eva-Beatrice in the climax of EP3.

[ArcticHelm]

Well even if she was unable to see at the time it doesn't mean that she was a sheep.

[TTR]

Maybe they are both sheep?