[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[k//eternal]

I guess you could call them fanservice, but they're games in the same series. It makes sense that there's a continuing narrative of some sort, and if Ryu07 continues with the WTC series, I think we can expect the next iteration to be similarly connected.

Maybe I'm just used to the term "fanservice" being applied to random butt shots like the anime was stuffed with.

Perhaps I missed the problem, Judoh, but what's the issue with the scenario as I have it in mind? Featherine has a game board with an unclear objective, which Lambda finds interesting and challenges her over. The mystery initially associated with the board is the identity of Oyashiro-sama and the truth behind Hinamizawa Syndrome, but Lambda adds her own extra element to the mix. The extra element destroys the intended ending of the game, creating a logic error. Similarly to how Battler was trapped in the room for an extremely long period of time, the time loop in Higurashi was actually caused by the logic error.

Instead of bothering to figure out a strategy, Featherine leaves it to her piece, Rika. (How much did Hanyuu actually contribute to the plot, after all?) Featherine deceives Rika about the nature of the time loop to win her trust. Similarly to Meta-Battler, a Meta-Rika is generated and assumes the identity of Bernkastel. At some point she realizes she can't go back to her original life and declares herself a separate being. After winning the game she is elevated to the level of a witch, at some point figures out that she was tricked, and eventually becomes the Bern we see here.

[Judoh]

The problem being that the statements made by Bern and Lambda are not consistent with the said continuity. Lambda for example states in episode 4 that 'there are several ancient kings that have dedicated historical buildings to her because they wanted her to give them certainty'. Bern also talks about how she had a similar battle that Battler did with a witch and I don't think that's a metaphor. Not to mention Lambdadelta hadn't finished reading Higurashi in the second game. It's a troll okay? They're just a bunch of mixed signals.

I'm on the side that says that Higurashi is completely different game outside the continuity of the Umineko verse.

[Renall]

Higurashi also exists as a book in Umineko's universe.

A book which Battler has read.

He doesn't seem to recognize anyone though.

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Judoh

The problem being that the statements made by Bern and Lambda are not consistent with the said continuity. Lambda for example states in episode 4 that there are several ancient kings that have dedicated historical buildings to her because they wanted to her to give them certainty. Bern also talks about how she had a similar battle that Battler did with a witch and I don't think that's a metaphor. Not to mention Lambdadelta hadn't finished readingHigurashi by the second game. It's a troll okay? They're just a bunch of mixed signals.

Based on those? Really?

1. It's very clear that the witches exist outside of time.
2. Yes, Lambda is a witch.
3. Okay, that one's just random silliness. We know now that Lambda is way smarter than she was in that scene.

I mean, believe what you want (there's no guarantee the story as I put it is canon, obviously), but you're making some very definite-sounding statements that it just didn't happen. I'm not surprised that you or a lot of people think so and there's nothing wrong with it, but as long as a way in which it could have happened is constructed and consistent with what we know, it can't be dismissed like that.

Originally Posted by Renall

Higurashi also exists as a book in Umineko's universe.

A book which Battler has read.

He doesn't seem to recognize anyone though.

Guess it wasn't a picture book

[Judoh]

Based on what? Those are examples there are many more, but the fact is the statements about their pasts are not consistent with the continuity. There is nothing to talk about. Either you see something that isn't there or you don't.

[k//eternal]

That isn't a functional argument. Or if it is, maybe I should back my theories from now on with "there are many examples and there is nothing to discuss". Without showing any valid ones, of course.

[June 1983]

I also think it's pretty clear that there is a connection with Higurashi. It's not especially important to the core of either stories, and it's not meant to be taken too seriously. But hell, Bern even appears in Saikoroshi-hen, by name, and calls herself a witch. And Bern, Featherinne, and Lambda's conversations in Episode 6 make it very, very obvious.

The references to characters "reading" Higurashi are a joke. (Either that or Hachijo Touya has penned other works. )

In any case, devil's proof. None of us can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there's a connection, but you also can't prove that there absolutely isn't.

Originally Posted by Used Can

I don't think the people in Rokkenjima can find a happy end. To begin with, are we sure there are kakeras in Umineko? We have several stories, but unlike in Higurashi, all of these are come down to 2 stories written by "Beatrice" and a large amount of forgeries (which, may, or may not, contain the truth contained in the ones written by Beatrice).

I think the whole deal about leaving the Meta-World, simply means opening the cat's box. In other words, allowing the dead to rest in peace.

The thing is, Ep 6 made it clear that almost certainly every story we've seen so far has been a game board. And it also heavily implied that even the future "after" 1986, to 1998, might not be real, either. It may simply be a fictional construction by Hachijo/Featherinne. Whether this means that it's possible to stop Explosion X or whatever the disaster at Rokkenjima is, I don't know.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

That isn't a functional argument. Or if it is, maybe I should back my theories from now on with "there are many examples and there is nothing to discuss". Without showing any valid ones, of course.

We've discussed this to death and I don't have the liberty right now to bring up every single point, TIP and statement in this thread and the game, on why it should be a troll, just so that you can see why that opinion is taken.

And I can see that even if I did it would likely get no results.

[k//eternal]

I don't have any particular attachment to the Higurashi connection theory other than that it would be a kind of cool way to link the series. As long as there's a functional way in which it could have happened, though, and no definitive evidence to show it's incorrect, something can't be dismissed with a simple "I'm right".

You can say you believe it and there's no problem, but every argument here is supposed to be backed by solid evidence. It doesn't have to be every piece, either, but it should be pretty definitive to just tell people that it's a troll for certain. One piece of evidence for which a solid counterargument doesn't exist, which isn't presented during an obvious comedy section, that should be sufficient.

[Kylon99]

Actually, I think the strongest pieces of evidence against the Kakera theory are the progressive elements of the story; i.e. character development:

1. George and Shannon's relationship progresses between episodes
2. Shannon's character gains confidence
3. Kanon's character goes from negativity to a confession with Jessica
4. Shannon and Kanon 'remember' pre vious episodes

Basically the Kakeras aren't behaving like Kakeras from Higurashi. So it's some kind of alternate Kakera theory where the characters can develop... it's almost as if someone could modify, direct... or... perhaps 'write' these Kakeras.

And so came the Author Theory. This was what I was thinking back in EP2, that the metaworld needed to be 'pierced' because Shannon's personality developed.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

Actually, I think the strongest pieces of evidence against the Kakera theory are the progressive elements of the story; i.e. character development:

1. George and Shannon's relationship progresses between episodes
2. Shannon's character gains confidence
3. Kanon's character goes from negativity to a confession with Jessica
4. Shannon and Kanon 'remember' pre vious episodes

Basically the Kakeras aren't behaving like Kakeras from Higurashi. So it's some kind of alternate Kakera theory where the characters can develop... it's almost as if someone could modify, direct... or... perhaps 'write' these Kakeras.

And so came the Author Theory. This was what I was thinking back in EP2, that the metaworld needed to be 'pierced' because Shannon's personality developed.

Actually, there were progressive elements in Higurashi too. After a while, people even started to remember previous worlds. Still, I don't think that's the case in Umineko.

Also, these things you've mentioned aren't actually evidence against the Kakera theory. As long as it was possible for Shannon's behavior to have been all of those things, then there's no problem. If the Game Master is choosing Kakera, then why shouldn't she choose them in a logical progression, perhaps one that gets slightly closer to the truth with each new game. Similarly, it seems that it's possible for meta-characters to speak in scenes that have no reliable observers. The meta-characters are under the complete control of the Game Master, who once again has the power to introduce themes into the story.

So while it's pretty clear that Kakera aren't being used in the same way as Higurashi, it's also hard to find evidence against them existing at all.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

The problem with determining progressive elements between kakera in Umineko is that we don't know if we can trust those elements to be true or not. In Higurashi, we more or less could trust what we were told and saw, without needing to suspect it being a fictualized event written up by some murder-loving otaku (I know this isn't completely true, due to unreliable narrative, but shush). In Umineko, we've got this whole fantasy scene invention, which means any scene viewed by the detective (and some viewed by the detective) has the potential to be fictionalized.
Since there are no scenes featuring progressive elements which are viewed by Battler as the detective (in my memory), you could even go as far to say that there are no progressive elements in Umineko, that every gameboard is a complete reset.
However, I am not inclined to support this, since believing in the Kakera Theory suits my means farther.

[Renall]

Well, Battler himself doesn't appear to have managed any progression, on the board anyway. His development has been entirely within the meta-realm, as far as we've seen, and it does reset each time.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Renall

Well, Battler himself doesn't appear to have managed any progression, on the board anyway. His development has been entirely within the meta-realm, as far as we've seen, and it does reset each time.

The meta-realm? I thought that was the only progressive part of the entire series. After all, we get Episode 1's incompetent Battler, who eventually becomes Episode 6's Sorceror Genius (potentially) Battler.
But yeah, his behaviour does reset each Episode on the gameboard, even if his opinions and abilities change regularily.

[zRyuu]

Originally Posted by Renall

Well, Battler himself doesn't appear to have managed any progression, on the board anyway. His development has been entirely within the meta-realm, as far as we've seen, and it does reset each time.

I have been rereading the episodes and there are scenes in the gameboard in which Battler, the detective supposedly..., takes a nap. EP3, when George left the guesthouse, Battler and Jessica dozed off. EP2, Battler took a nap and woke up when Genji knocked the door to tell Rosa he found Nanjo and Kumasawa's bodies. How incompetent!

[MetalGearFlaccid]

@chronotrig:
I have a question pertaining tangentially to this discussion: why did you translate "kakera" as you did?
Isn't the word "fragment" a literal enough translation for it? I mean, it's not like the word means "one of many universes" or anything.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

In Umineko, we've got this whole fantasy scene invention, which means any scene viewed by the detective (and some viewed by the detective) has the potential to be fictionalized.

Sorry... an idea just popped up. Hijacking your quote... 8)


I'm starting to believe that this has been the single greatest blunder by the entire fanbase of Umineko. Mind you it was a blunder that Ryukishi probably designed...

That is that we've decided that some scenes were 'fantasy' in terms of that they were completely useless. As if we could just skip by them and pretended they didn't exist. So then in EP5 or 6 we learn just how important they are and we find we have to go back and try to make sense of something we all declared was 'just made up crap.'


I think the right word Raiza used was 'fictionalized.' As with the Author Theory we know even if something is 'fiction' that it could still be 'based on a true story.' We know that a fantasy scene is fiction, but it contains something Beatrice wants to tell us. So we try to pick out which 'parts' of the fantasy scene is true and which 'parts' are the lie.


Maybe what we need to say is... the fantasy scene is a constructed lie on the gameboard. I mean we have this example with Kinzo already, right? The scenes of him walking around pretending to be alive, whether he's using magic or not we already know some of them are based on corroborated lies. So... why can't all the other fantasy scenes be as well? In fact, what distinguishes a fake scene or a 'fictionalized' scene is whether there was a conspiracy to lie or not. Like what we think happened in EP5 where there was no knock, no letter; Shannon, Kanon and the siblings simply conspired to say that there was when they received the ring.

So a fantasy scene is a corroborated lie constructed by two or more people. Maybe all we need to be thinking isn't just, 'why is Beatrice showing us this scene' but... 'WHO is conspiring for this lie to happen?'

By the way, this has to have something to do with what we think is the Golden Truth... I think.


EDIT: Oh also, this has something to do with how the Gamemaster doesn't manipulate events but rather picks events from the board and shows it. So maybe the constructed lies are also 'viewable' by the Gamemaster.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by MetalGearFlaccid

@chronotrig:
I have a question pertaining tangentially to this discussion: why did you translate "kakera" as you did?
Isn't the word "fragment" a literal enough translation for it? I mean, it's not like the word means "one of many universes" or anything.

We did use Kakera at one point, but we've switched over to Fragment. Even in Higurashi, a Kakera wasn't a separate universe. I think it was more like a perspective from which to view a universe. It seems that the Umineko concept is at least similar to this, which is why we set aside a separate word to emphasize the connection. Also, since the Higurashi word has been translated as "fragments", "shards" or "pieces", we wanted to have a word that could be tied to Higurashi regardless of the translation used there (which could change depending on how people experienced that series).

Though the word "Kakera" itself doesn't mean different worlds, it is often used to refer directly to them in the When They Cry series, especially when it's written in Katakana instead of Kanji.

[MetalGearFlaccid]

Oh, I forgot that you changed it. I'm in the middle of replaying Ep 2, so I just saw "kakera" and thought it was odd.
But if you re-translated the word later, my question is moot, lol.

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

Sorry... an idea just popped up. Hijacking your quote... 8)


I'm starting to believe that this has been the single greatest blunder by the entire fanbase of Umineko. Mind you it was a blunder that Ryukishi probably designed...

That is that we've decided that some scenes were 'fantasy' in terms of that they were completely useless. As if we could just skip by them and pretended they didn't exist. So then in EP5 or 6 we learn just how important they are and we find we have to go back and try to make sense of something we all declared was 'just made up crap.'


I think the right word Raiza used was 'fictionalized.' As with the Author Theory we know even if something is 'fiction' that it could still be 'based on a true story.' We know that a fantasy scene is fiction, but it contains something Beatrice wants to tell us. So we try to pick out which 'parts' of the fantasy scene is true and which 'parts' are the lie.


Maybe what we need to say is... the fantasy scene is a constructed lie on the gameboard. I mean we have this example with Kinzo already, right? The scenes of him walking around pretending to be alive, whether he's using magic or not we already know some of them are based on corroborated lies. So... why can't all the other fantasy scenes be as well? In fact, what distinguishes a fake scene or a 'fictionalized' scene is whether there was a conspiracy to lie or not. Like what we think happened in EP5 where there was no knock, no letter; Shannon, Kanon and the siblings simply conspired to say that there was when they received the ring.

So a fantasy scene is a corroborated lie constructed by two or more people. Maybe all we need to be thinking isn't just, 'why is Beatrice showing us this scene' but... 'WHO is conspiring for this lie to happen?'

By the way, this has to have something to do with what we think is the Golden Truth... I think.


EDIT: Oh also, this has something to do with how the Gamemaster doesn't manipulate events but rather picks events from the board and shows it. So maybe the constructed lies are also 'viewable' by the Gamemaster.

"Magic can only be done when it is possible to be done by normal means" is what your getting at?