True Tears - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[golthin]

Originally Posted by Westlo

Why stop at Haruhi, that rumor should've included Lelouch, Light and Son Goku! Also golthin going with a cowardly 50/50 prediction means your prediction streak ends imo

Doesn't count ! I said I was not making any more predictions in True tears after my prediction about Aiko breaking up with Nobuse and becoming friends with him came true! I just couldn't figure out Shin, I have not much experience with the "good boy" archetype as it is VERY rarely used in anime.

[relentlessflame]

Setting aside the whole romance thing for a minute, arguably the most interesting thing that happened in this episode was the turnaround regarding Raigomaru and Jibeta. I've been giving that whole conversation a whole lot of thought (my head hurts...) and the one thing it does do is answer one key question about how it is Noe will come to cry again. In short, she has to choose to. They've spun around the "you can fly" thing from Shinichirou to Noe and, in Shinichirou's mind, it's because her heart/motivation is pure. She wants to fly, not for others, not for flame or glory, and not to set a record. Raigomaru takes off. Combine this with what Noe said in the preview, "Shinichirou says I can fly", and you can begin to see what the show is trying to say. Shinichirou's starting to realize what it is he can do to release Noe's tears -- help her fly. In other words, in all this time, she's being looking out for him, and now he's going to look out for her.

If Shinichirou's going to encourage Noe to fly, then it begs the question -- can Shinichirou fly himself? If Shinichirou is Jibeta, then he can choose not to fly and look up and straight ahead proudly, while Noe flies away. That's the total opposite of the analogy I had thought they were driving at, but strangely it still works.

As I've said before, regardless of the ending, it's certain that the show will resolve both Hiromi and Noe's stories. While I do have my theories about how the romance will turn out (and despite having given it a lot of thought, I ultimately haven't changed my mind), what I ultimately hope for more than anything else is that they do justice to all the characters in the ending. That, to me, will be a true happy ending; as usual, shipping wars be damned.

(Edit: I guess what I'm trying to say is, we've gotten so focused on the romantic pairing that we might miss that this show has a lot more going for it than just "who's he going to end up with?!" This is why I generally don't follow episode threads; I prefer to just "enjoy the ride".)

[ani_d]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Setting aside the whole romance thing for a minute, arguably the most interesting thing that happened in this episode was the turnaround regarding Raigomaru and Jibeta. I've been giving that whole conversation a whole lot of thought (my head hurts...) and the one thing it does do is answer one key question about how it is Noe will come to cry again. In short, she has to choose to. They've spun around the "you can fly" thing from Shinichirou to Noe and, in Shinichirou's mind, it's because her heart/motivation is pure. She wants to fly, not for others, not for flame or glory, and not to set a record. Raigomaru takes off. Combine this with what Noe said in the preview, "Shinichirou says I can fly", and you can begin to see what the show is trying to say. Shinichirou's starting to realize what it is he can do to release Noe's tears -- help her fly. In other words, in all this time, she's being looking out for him, and now he's going to look out for her.

Now, That is certainly doing Noe justice. ^___^

[b0nyb0y]

Originally Posted by ani_d

I just want to say this rings true. I thought the scene with Miyokishi and Shin was pretty random as well, and I don't think the writers will just animate that scene cuz they feel like it. Like you said, I think they just want to emphasize that even Shin himself doesn't know what he's doing anymore. Out of all 11 episodes, this is the only episode where he starts to really break away from his old self--the one who couldn't fly.

@vio5555

Also, while it's true Shin didn't verbally express what's on his mind about Hiromi, his expressions and his eye movements tell us a whole lot. Nonverbal communication is way more expressive than verbal. We've been shown a lot of facial close-up of Shin here, especially when talking to Hiromi. It may be too subtle to notice, but if you're looking for subtle hints, there you go. He's been like that, ever since ep 11, and it just got worse in this episode. I do feel like he's being a little bit of a jerk for lying to Hiromi too, but that simple gesture tells us a lot as well. Hence, this is why I think episode 13 will be interesting. We get to confirm our suspicions lol

Though I quoted ani_d above, this response also directed at Reckoner, since my previous post might not be clear enough.

I don't think I've ever discounted the fact that characters in the series have dropped hints via bodily gestures. In fact, I don't think anyone who made a lot of insightful comments around here can do so without ever looking at those gestures. The fact that most of the words characters uttered are almost always "beside the point" basically force every one of us to also look at those gestures anyway. And if you take a really good look at those gestures from several perspectives (be it Hiromi-shipping view, or Noe-shipping view, or other views), you'll see that those gestures themselves didn't tell us exactly what they meant. They can still be interpreted in several ways when pieced together. This is the very reason why I used the word "ambiguous", and that's because they really are.

And this writers' move just doesn't start in episode 11 either: the series has always been like this from the very beginning. We just didn't really mind it earlier because there were still many episodes away, still many things that need to be told, so we hadn't expected ourselves to understand the whole series during that time frame. But as we reached the final episodes, at some point we expect ourselves to foresee how the series end. Yet all we've seen were ambiguous words and gestures that don't really tell us directly of how they're going to end the series. Similar to what you said, I don't think they animated it like this just because they feel like it. It can't be coincidence that characters' actions and words were ambiguous to us until the very end of their plot arcs. It has to be intentional. They want us to keep guessing til the very end.

And as I've said previously, Shin should have known which girl he chose by the point he faced Hiromi already (as he figured it all out during the dance). Though he probably was confused when he talked with Nobuse, that confusion is now cleared: you can see determination in his eyes (Heck, even the crowd who watched him dance could probably see his determination also). Yet he didn't clearly say it out. And I couldn't come up with a good reason why he did so except the fact that the writers just want to save revelation for the next episode. That's why I said it's unrealistic. It's unrealistic for Shin to act in such a way when he can resolved Hiromi's frustration with just a couple of words (be it "I love you" or "I just love Noe"). It's very unreasonable for aiming to do things properly and yet ignoring it when such opportunity arrived.

[Reckoner]

Maybe he didn't say anything to Hiromi because he's saving her as a backup plan .

No but really I can see what you are saying, it wasn't necessary to have this scene, it probably would've been better if he ran off and Hiromi never faced him. This would've been far better considering the emotional development he was "supposedly" undertaking. But because the writers I believe up to this point have been nearly flawless (With the exception of the mother of course), I wasn't as taken back as some other people were. I'll wait to pass judgement on Shinchiro ext episode when we actually learn what the hell is on his mind

[vio5555]

Well, since I came from the same angle as b0nyb0y I don't have much to add myself to that discussion since all points have been expounded multiple times, but I do understand why some posters (Reckoner, ani_d) had decided to wait till episode 13 for Shin's actions.

@ Relentlessflame

Great post.

The confirmation that Shin had indeed been forcing a part of himself on to Jibeta and the subsequent unwinding in some sense of the position is perhaps one of the most important realizations in episode 12. jaisrh brought up the chickens a few pages ago, but that definitely seems to be the area where things have been changing in a predictive manner if any.

Personally I'm leaning towards an interpretation of Noe representing Jibeta taking flight for the first time of her own will in some sense. jaisrh's post on page 10 (I think) goes into it in detail, and I agree with the bulk of that analysis on the issue.

But, of course, as before we'll only find out which interpretation is correct in episode 13, as we did in this episode about the interpretations we developed after 11.

[Darkside]

After watching this ep, i've begun to feel insecure about a Shin x Hiromi ending .

[viny]

i dun get this anime anymore!? :S

who does shinichiro want to be with?
(Personally i want Hiromi ending)

[cloudninja]

After bringing up the fact that I thought Shin was represented by Jibeta in episode 11, and Raigomaru in episodes 9-10 in some sort of internal representation of Shin, I just kind of stepped back and watched as some posters fleshed it out and it was debated over in the ep 11 thread.

For the most part I agree with jaisrh's analysis from ep 11 and ep 12 regarding the evolution of Shin's view about Raigomaru and Jibeta. vio5555 and b0nyb0y also had some good posts on the matter and all 3 of them expanded on the idea quite well.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Setting aside the whole romance thing for a minute, arguably the most interesting thing that happened in this episode was the turnaround regarding Raigomaru and Jibeta. I've been giving that whole conversation a whole lot of thought (my head hurts...) and the one thing it does do is answer one key question about how it is Noe will come to cry again. In short, she has to choose to. They've spun around the "you can fly" thing from Shinichirou to Noe and, in Shinichirou's mind, it's because her heart/motivation is pure. She wants to fly, not for others, not for flame or glory, and not to set a record. Raigomaru takes off. Combine this with what Noe said in the preview, "Shinichirou says I can fly", and you can begin to see what the show is trying to say. Shinichirou's starting to realize what it is he can do to release Noe's tears -- help her fly. In other words, in all this time, she's being looking out for him, and now he's going to look out for her.

If Shinichirou's going to encourage Noe to fly, then it begs the question -- can Shinichirou fly himself? If Shinichirou is Jibeta, then he can choose not to fly and look up and straight ahead proudly, while Noe flies away. That's the total opposite of the analogy I had thought they were driving at, but strangely it still works.

After resisting the idea that Jibeta was Shin at first when I brought it up in the ep 11 thread, I think you've given it some serious thought and came up with an excellent and viable analysis of what happened in ep 12 regarding Raigomaru and Jibeta. There's definitely some interesting paths they could take regarding Shin and Noe respectively in their decision to fly.

On another note, I have identified it as track 32 being played during the final scene that has Noe jumping off the tree (is that supposed to be her first attempt at flight?) I don't think anyone has mentioned yet that it was track 32 during that final scene. A strong supporting clue about the role she plays? I'll comment a bit more about track 32 and Noe in the speculations and theories thread.

[b0nyb0y]

Great post again, relentlessflame. I'm in agreement with you on this.

To me, ep. 12 is all about Shin getting his feelings resolved (not situations, just feelings), while at the same time stir up the tensions inside Hiromi and Noe's hearts. It goes without saying that Noe is in confusion now, and Hiromi is feeling extremely insecure about Shin. As it is now, I expect Shin to help them to finally resolve their feelings in the next episode.

Since around the middle of the series, I got an idea that this series is all about main characters gaining courage to be true to themselves. If you look at it, we see the pattern here. At the beginning of the series, all of them were locked up inside their own emotional deadlocks and couldn't be true to themselves...

• Shin wants to reach out to Hiromi, but he lacks confidence to do so, and Hiromi stayed too deep inside her shell that it's impossible for him to reach her. So he didn't be true to his feelings.
• Hiromi wants to reach out to Shin, but because of the lies and abuse she's got from Shin's mother, she decided to seal it all away. She didn't be true to her feelings.
• Aiko wants to reach out to Shin, but due to the fact that She went out with Nobuse, she didn't dare to say how she feels. Thus, she didn't be true to her feelings.
• Jun wants to reach out to Noe, but because it's unacceptable to habor such feeling for her, he tried to avoid facing the fact that he's in love with her. So he didn't be true to his own feelings.
• The complication about losing her granny and not being able to cry is also an indication of Noe not being 100% true to her own feelings either. (And later in this ep., how she handled the situation when realizing Hiromi's feelings and Jun's feelings in this episode also confirmed this. She knows she's sad, but she's holding it all back and ask herself if it's ok for a person like her to cry.)

As the series progress, with Noe played the role as a catalyst to the whole situation, one-by-one, each of the main characters broke free of their emo-deadlocks, be true to themselves, and cried as they revealed/accepted their true feelings. So to me, "true tears" is basically tears that accompany the act of being "true to oneself".

So, if we go by this interpretation, there are still two people who haven't cried their true tears yet: Shin and Noe. So, I believe this final episode shouldn't only be about Shin helping Noe and Hiromi resolve their feelings, but also about Shin being true to his feelings (and cry) as well. Maybe your question about whether Shin will or won't fly will be answered at the same time we get to see his tears.

The main concern I have now, though, is that there are still so many things that need to resolve in one single episode if they wanna go the "happy ending" route. I'm afraid the ending might turn out to be too rush. I just really do hope it won't turn out that way. This is one of the best series I've seen so far...

[Ascaloth]

Blog article is up,

[RIUVA] True Tears, Episode 12

Yep, I'm taking a harsher tone towards this series in this article that I had before. The writers have one more episode to make me eat my words, and I actually sincerely hope they manage to do so, but until then...

[Sinestra]

RestlessFlame and cloudninja brilliant post as usual.

My worry with Shin was never limited to who he would pick in the end, it was the steps of growth he took to get there and his picture book is great example of his own growth or his attempt at growth. I was annoyed with him in episode 12 during the scene with him and Hiromi where he ran off. But i can not really blame his as i thought the scene was pointless i saw no reason to have it. It would have made more sense for him not to see Hiromi and go see Noe about whatever it is needed to see her about. I still feel Shin is trying to do everything properly hes just not sure how to go about it

Trying to figure out just if Shin is represented by Jibeta has forced me broaden my view a little and im still unsure about it, but one thing i am sure about is that none of these events would have been possible without Noe shes is catalyst which i noticed by in episode 7. Weather Shin is going to thank Noe for her inspirations or hes going to let her know she is the one he loves is a bi-product to me im more interested in the steps he took to come to his resolution.

Interesting fact the screen shots for episode 13 has Shin's mom at Hiromi's place having a chat that will be most interesting. I hope it goes well or at least with the mom acknowledging she knows about Hiromi's feelings for Shin or finally reveling the past about her hatred for Hiromi's mother.

[Reckoner]

I've always taken "flying" as being with Noe and not flying, choosing to be with Hiromi. When Raigomaru was the focus, Noe was on his mind, when Jibeta became the focus, Hiromi was on his mind. Jibeta chose not to fly, Shinchiro realized this and then comes to the conclusion that he didn't understand that not flying was his choice, not just something he couldn't do. His true strength was the choice, now he is choosing to fly, hence the refocus back on Raigomaru. Jibeta and Raigomaru just represents what side of Shinchiro's mind is winning out, like some sort of mental battle.

Although in the book Jibeta is trying to fly at some point, this was just showing how Shinchiro thought not flying was his destiny. Raigomaru was spurred back up by the crashing down of realization as he witnessed what Jibeta truly was.

The last part is the weakest of my interpretation.

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I've always taken "flying" as being with Noe and not flying, choosing to be with Hiromi. When Raigomaru was the focus, Noe was on his mind, when Jibeta became the focus, Hiromi was on his mind. Jibeta chose not to fly, Shinchiro realized this and then comes to the conclusion that he didn't understand that not flying was his choice, not just something he couldn't do. His true strength was the choice, now he is choosing to fly, hence the refocus back on Raigomaru. Jibeta and Raigomaru just represents what side of Shinchiro's mind is winning out, like some sort of mental battle.

Although in the book Jibeta is trying to fly at some point, this was just showing how Shinchiro thought not flying was his destiny. Raigomaru was spurred back up by the crashing down of realization as he witnessed what Jibeta truly was.

The last part is the weakest of my interpretation.

Seems reasonable now lets just see if the writers are reasonable. Iv recently wondered if all this emphasizes on flying was really Noe not Shin. Noe is the one that is obsessed with flying Shin only thought about it because of Noe. I wonder if her tears are key to her being able to fly.

[KholdStare]

Wow, lots of great posts in this thread, with no flaming also. The one thing True Tears produced for sure is good, meaningful discussions, but I want the ending to at least be well. Let's not take the School Days route and say that the best ending is for Shin to be with no one, because he deserves it. No matter how much you try to make sense of anime, the best endings have some type of a fantasy feel to it, and I would like True Tears to end as such.

About the Shin and Jibeta thing, it's still kind of cloudy in my head. Of course, it should be, because the series never actually explained it. I have a feeling that it will become like Air and we will have to come up with our own interpretations after the series end about what flying and true tears are about. I will have to muse about this series more, but the one thing that we must keep in mind is that no one knows if Jibeta wants to fly. In a way, this can relate to Shin, but I still need to analyze the flying concept some more. I'm not going to make any extra assumptions until I see the next episode.

And about the romance aspects of the series I feel sorry for Noe, a lot, especially about the Jun incident. The most interesting thing about that incident is that Noe either one, became very confused afterwards, or two, completely understood everything around her. The one thing to realize here is not to say bad things about Shin. Everything that is great about this series depends on Shin's stupidity, and rarely will an anime be good with a "smart" male lead (Tomoya Okazaki). In fact, having been with a crazy chicken lover like Noe and dealing with incest/Hiromi-hater mother problems, Shin would naturally be confused.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by cloudninja

After resisting the idea that Jibeta was Shin at first when I brought it up in the ep 11 thread, I think you've given it some serious thought and came up with an excellent and viable analysis of what happened in ep 12 regarding Raigomaru and Jibeta. There's definitely some interesting paths they could take regarding Shin and Noe respectively in their decision to fly.

Yeah, the "flip" that I hadn't anticipated was the show actually pointing towards the possibility that Shin couldn't fly and that that choice was okay (the key was the choice), but the one who could actually fly was Noe (if she chooses to). I said last episode that I believed Jibeta represented, simply, the one who couldn't fly -- the antithesis to Raigomaru. What this episode did, on the other hand, is argue that Raigomaru and Jibeta aren't opposites, they're equals that made different choices. That revelation came to both Noe and Shinichirou in this episode: that they had both misunderstood Jibeta's strength. Noe thought she was Jibeta, but she wasn't, since Jibeta had made his choice and was standing proudly. Shinichirou thought Jibeta was pitiful for not being able to fly (like himself), but now he sees that he was wrong about Jibeta; the important thing is to face reality decisively. To fly or not to fly; the key is to decide.

I still have some mixed feelings about the idea that Jibeta and Raigomaru represent Shinichirou's feelings towards each of the two girls. I think that was really the main thing I objected to after last episode. I find that to be a bit too constraining, and I think this episode just threw a lot more into the mix to mess up that equation. What the shows seems to be suggesting at the moment (to me anyway) is that Shin has accepted his role as Jibeta, and has now recognized that it's not him but Noe that can fly. That's what Noe's "eyes that couldn't see anything" were missing.

What's most interesting about this flip is what it means in comparison to the early episodes. Noe used to get annoyed at Shin for not flying -- for looking to the ground, for worrying about Hiromi, and so on. At the time I felt that she was insinuating that Hiromi was bringing him down and preventing him from reaching his true potential. I also figured that Shinichirou's ability to fly may come at the cost of leaving her behind -- that if she herself couldn't fly, he'd fly away from her. (This was tied to Raigomaru's flight being on the occasion of his death.) This was sort of Noe's way of saying "you're better than this" -- look to the sky, and fly! But Shinichirou kept resisting at every turn, and kept looking at the ground at people like Hiromi; he stayed fixated on her for the whole length of the story. Noe wondered why he was hesitating -- she told him he could fly, so why, like Jibeta, wasn't he taking off? Enter this episode's realization. Now the tables have turned; it's Shinichirou's turn. Just as he's no Raigomaru, she's no Jibeta -- rather than looking to him on the ground and being tied down, she needs to look to the sky! This is Shinichirou's way of saying that "you're better than this"; that he's chosen to look to the ground, but she's the one who can fly. In other words, he's releasing her to her true potential, and that means not letting her be tied down by someone like him.

Anyway, that's probably just a lot of different ways of restating what I already said, but it's by explaining that I flesh out what I'm thinking. So don't get too annoyed if I resist an idea and then eventually come around (it wouldn't be the first time, as you know...) -- it just takes me more time to think it through.

[AznSoulBoy]

I don't know how u could think that far recentlessflame. How much time did it take? LOL
It's been like 2 years I knew u and u always surprise me with ur arguments.

[Un1234l]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

(Edit: I guess what I'm trying to say is, we've gotten so focused on the romantic pairing that we might miss that this show has a lot more going for it than just "who's he going to end up with?!" This is why I generally don't follow episode threads; I prefer to just "enjoy the ride".)

Me too...

You people should try it out sometime. Don't watch it like a harem anime thinking about who will end up with who...

JUST WATCH THE DAMN SHOW.

That's the original intention. Not to start all these "shipping wars".

Also great ep, awesome cliffhanger. Made me go "What the hell?". And I was right... Jun really did all that he did just for Noe, under the pretense that his love for her wasn't yet at that level. But Hiromi made him realize otherwise. And yeah.. Jun isn't a freak. He just had too much affection for her because of their family's situation. Trying to take care of her in place of her mom, dad, and grandma. He realized his feelings now. When you're too close, it starts to feel natural, and there are things he didn't realize. Like his love for Noe. (Sorta like in Kimikiss)

[mikesince83]

Just picked up this series recently since CLANNAD and Kimi Kiss finished. I’m glad I waited…I think watching True Tears along with the others (especially Kimi Kiss) would have been too much. I’m sure comparisons of the two have been discussed to death, so I’ll spare you any comments on similarities.

The Art: First off, the animation style is superb. From an artistic perspective it falls in as one of my favorites this season, second only to Zetsubou Sensei. It stands out particularly during scenes with a lot of people on screen where often even unimportant characters in the background will move about creating a very realistic feel. And of course the colors implemented throughout the fall segment of the series were breathtaking.

The Plot: Things started slow, but I had the opportunity to move through at a quick pace, so that helped considerably. This is the first romance this season that had me guessing from episode one as to which pairing was going to finish out the series, and even with only one episode left I’m still not completely confident in my assumption. The female protagonists have unique personalities that for the most part deviate from the stereotypical roll, and the directors have handled the relationship development well so far.

This Episode: Now that things have been wrapped up with Aiko, It’s good to things kicking into overdrive for the other girls. Recent events must have been emotionally devastating for Noe. Not only is her brother leaving, but she’s misunderstood his intentions prompting her to re evaluate the whole relationship. Her tree top jump was clearly intentional, possibly indicating contemplation of suicide. Shin manages to step away from his indecisive personality for a moment to chase after her, but is he doing so for love, or closure? And if it’s love, how will Hiromi cope with her worst nightmare, being left behind?

The Ending: Honestly, it’s tough for me to see a weak ending coming from this series considering how good it’s been to this point. I have my reservations as to the possible outcome, but like the rest of you I’ll have to wait for 13 to see how they pan out.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by AznSoulBoy

I don't know how u could think that far recentlessflame. How much time did it take? LOL
It's been like 2 years I knew u and u always surprise me with ur arguments.

Well, thanks, but it's been far too long. A lot of other people in this thread have been three steps ahead of me already! Seriously, though, the fact that so many people seem to believe we're heading for a Noe ending after episode 12 has had me seriously perplexed since Saturday. I really wanted to know if I've just been blind all this time for some reason (and it isn't particularly because I like one of the girls over the other - on the surface, I wouldn't mind an ending with either girl), or if there's some little tidbit I was missing. I knew the answer had to be in Episode 12, and it took me a good 4 or 5 hours (at home, in bed, on the bus, at work... ) to figure out what was being said and what it might mean (even though it came instinctively to some people). And as vio said, I still can't be 100% sure until they complete the story in episode 13. And, like I said, I really don't think it has anything to this with this massive shipping war that brewed around here; it's about Raigomaru and Jibeta; it's about Noe, Shinichirou, Hiromi, and Aiko; it's about flying and crying; it's about what it means and what it takes to finally release one's True Tears. That's a powerful picture, and much more interesting than "the final score".

I'm very much against the idea, so frequently quoted these days, that "this is anime -- anything can happen!" All stories have a logic that can be followed, and the clues are always there if we're attentive enough. If we don't see the way the story's going, that just means we aren't perceptive enough. At least, that's the way I choose to look at it. To me, watching anime is about understanding the story the writers are trying to convey and appreciating the characters they so carefully created. That's why I won't be contented until I understand exactly what the anime's been trying to say all this time -- thankfully, it won't be long until the anime answers that question itself.

Anyway, I digress... back to the discussion!