Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Destined_Fate]

Funny how she neglected to answer the other question. "How did you overcome it?"

Originally Posted by Gundamx

I think he mean that > they hate their character because they don't have any development not because they have internal fight.

Anyway, after watching gundam seed again... am I the only one who think that strike most danger weapon is his dagger?

-Yazen have scar because of strike dagger.
- Kira defeat Andrew Waltfed with dagger.
- same thing with sea commander.
-and he was about to do same thing with Athrun before the later decided to troll him with "Self- destruction.

... No wonder they name strike mass production strike dagger...

Yes there was internal fighting, Cagalli's VA made it a point that the environment of working on Destiny was horrible as did Shinn's VA. So horrible that she even refuses easy money by doing more VA for Cagalli in games that use Destiny thus all those games are forced to reuse stock voice work or just push her to roles where she does little to nothing or only have her appear for Non-VA required dialouge.

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Yes there was internal fighting, Cagalli's VA made it a point that the environment of working on Destiny was horrible as did Shinn's VA. So horrible that she even refuses easy money by doing more VA for Cagalli in games that use Destiny thus all those games are forced to reuse stock voice work or just push her to roles where she does little to nothing or only have her appear for Non-VA required dialouge.

Isn't it sad, Sacchin Cagalli?

Just ask Sayla Mass, post-MSG.

[Destined_Fate]

Sayla Mass, poor girl considering what happened. Most don't know about the "other" girl though and just know Chan from the OVA/Movie. Man, I'm sure the fan outcry was huge back than when they learned about the new girls on the block.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

I hate it when the actual story was heavily influenced by the “outside” problems. I mean, it’s already pretty bad in live action movies, but in anime too ?!

I hope that if someday Hollywood wants to adapt MSG (since remake by Sunrise is impossible), they’ll make Sayla into Amuro’s true love until CCA scenario. Won’t it be interesting to see Sayla got caught in Amuro x Char conflict in CCA ?

[GN0010 Nosferatu]

I was wondering, in the original series, where Kira saves Flay, the Freedom Gundam doesn't have its shield equipped. But in the next frame, it's there to block the beam from Rau's DRAGOON. Do you think the HD episodes might change that?

[rakusukira]

Originally Posted by GN0010 Nosferatu

I was wondering, in the original series, where Kira saves Flay, the Freedom Gundam doesn't have its shield equipped. But in the next frame, it's there to block the beam from Rau's DRAGOON. Do you think the HD episodes might change that?

who knows... maybe

Spoiler for fllay:

Fllay won't even die in the HD remake.. and remake Destiny entirely, in HD of course

[T-T-Thunder!]

Originally Posted by GN0010 Nosferatu

I was wondering, in the original series, where Kira saves Flay, the Freedom Gundam doesn't have its shield equipped. But in the next frame, it's there to block the beam from Rau's DRAGOON. Do you think the HD episodes might change that?

You can see the shield fly out from behind Freedom as Rau destroys the METEOR unit. It was probably stored in there.

Then the shield apparently magically flies out ahead of Freedom and blocks the first DRAGOON shot.

I dunno, it's hard to tell, but it's possible the Freedom grabbed it and threw it. It's a stretch no matter how you slice it.

[Destined_Fate]

I doubt the HD SEED will change anything too big that would have long reaching effects on Destiny since they will eventually want to do a HD Destiny with maybe some clean up to make Shinn as likeable as his Z version. Or maybe they'll actually do what they intended instead of jumping ship halfway through and turning it into a Kira wangfest because Shinn was popular but not as popular as Kira who at that point in Destiny had done nothing but ride on the waves of SEED hype.

[Zulu Keita]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

So you're saying that Shinn's VA was lying when he voiced his displeasure of what happened with Destiny and how he felt the SRW Z Shinn was the real Shinn in his heart? Or at Lacus and Athrun's VAs were angry over what happen to their characters? Or that Cagalli's VA was so angry that she refuses to do any new VA work for Destiny Cagalli and that's why games like SRW have to put her to the side or just reuse old stock VA and push her to a lesser role because they can't get new VA work for her?

Kinda hard to be hear-say when the VAs themselves voiced their displeasure both publicly and privately. There's a reason they never went forward with that GSD movie that was planned but never realized.

I know about the voiceactor issues and I apologize for not being clear on what I was commenting on, My comment was more so directed at "It was due o internal conflict that they stopped developing Shinn's character and had Kira steal the show away"

As to my knowledge, the way some characters turned out, due to voice actor issues was just a rumor and nothing more, I might be wrong but I never heard any stonecold statement in where it was announced that they changed or stopped developing characters because of Voice Actor issues, Especially Shinns (I liked the character).

Also saying that "Kira stole the show" is kinda hostile towards Kira Yamato character for no good reason, Yes he may have taken over the lead role after the first half of the series but I always found Athrun Zala to be the one who also played a big part in Shinn getting pushed to the side just a bit.

What Im trying to say is that I hope you dont hate Kira Yamato or any other character for Writing issues(If there were any). I know that Cagalli character story was changed because of the issues the VA had with the writer, but other than that, I have not had anything else confirmed.


You are right about the voice actors, that was my bad as you are correct about the issue.

[Destined_Fate]

The internal fighting had a huge role in why Shinn took a huge dip as the series dragged on, especially when Kira was thrown back into the story to take the lead. It also had to do with Shinn being popular but not "as" popular as Kira who had done nothing in Destiny up that point. The SEED fanbase demanded that Kira be returned to glory and did it every chance they could, the guys in charge of Destiny eventually relented to that which only intensified the unsavory work conditions and heavily railroaded the plot to the state it ended up in. It's also why Cagalli took a dip in Destiny and only got worse as the series went on, they changed her completely to a crybaby from her old strong self which is why Cagalli's VA refuses to acknowledge Destiny or take new work involving it.

So not it wasn't just arumour because that's exactly what happened and many of the VAs voiced over what happen. It's telling that Shinn's VA praised SRW Z Shinn as the "True Shinn in his heart" while the guy in charge was furious over the changes SRW Z did to Shinn and the Destiny plot. Especialy since SRW Z Destiny/Shinn was far better received compared to the TV series plot and Shinn.

There's no denying that Shinn was greatly effected by the inclusion of Kira stealing the Main Character role from him. It's worse when you realize that the Strike Freedom, once it appeared, never lost a battle or suffered any real damage and was made into the ultimate mary sue where Kira just roflstomps supposedly competent pilots with ease(While before he was completely demolished by Shinn in Impulse vs Freedom. Even with Kira's no kill rule he was way out of his league against Angry Shinn). Or that they had Athrun easily beat Shinn and Lunamaria in the last battle while before Shinn has taken on far superior opponents and had already surpassed the somewhat retired Athrun in piloting abilities.

It was the writers fault for caving in to the fanbase and dropping Shinn instead of making him work. Which in reality it wasn't that hard at all to make Shinn or Kira work as SRW Z has shown as well as SRW L that took out all the worst parts of Shinn and Kira from Destiny and made them both likeable even when they were shareing the same spotlight.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

It's also why Cagalli took a dip in Destiny and only got worse as the series went on, they changed her completely to a crybaby from her old strong self

Except Cagalli was prone to cry back in SEED as well. The only difference in Destiny is that she found herself in opposition of her fellow countrymen and she can't pass the blame to someone else like she did to her dad back in SEED. The girl who wanted to be tough found herself in a situation out of her control.

It's worse when you realize that the Strike Freedom, once it appeared, never lost a battle or suffered any real damage and was made into the ultimate mary sue where Kira just roflstomps supposedly competent pilots with ease(While before he was completely demolished by Shinn in Impulse vs Freedom.

What, like Kira has never been dominant in battle before?

Even with Kira's no kill rule he was way out of his league against Angry Shinn).

Yes, in one battle. That doesn't mean it will always be that way, especially when they're using different mobile suits.

Or that they had Athrun easily beat Shinn and Lunamaria in the last battle while before Shinn has taken on far superior opponents and had already surpassed the somewhat retired Athrun in piloting abilities.

Shinn has never fought against Athrun and you can't use how Shinn fares against other pilots to determine how he would fare against Athrun.

[Destined_Fate]

Cagalli cried in SEED but nowhere near to the extent of Destiny. They took it overboard, especially when Cagalli's VA was accused of sleeping around. Also her Father died in SEED, she got over it in SEED. That wasn't ever used as a legit excuse for making her randomly cry everywhere they could.

Kira has never dominated as much as he did in Strike Freedom, the mecha wasn't even that impressive. It was just a remodeled Freedom with a few more beams coming out. No real change for why it was such a huge power increase.

The Destiny was the much more versatile Mecha compared to the one trick pony that is Strike Freedom. Every game that has had them in it the Destiny always comes up over it in specs and what it can do while the Strike Freedom is regulated to just beam spamming from the back or mass Mook killer. This is reinforced even more in any game featuring GSD, example: SRW(Any of them, Destiny is always far better than any of the Destiny units), DWG(One of the best Movesets in the game), and now the GSD Battle game for Vita.

Shinn has fought against Athrun before. Not to mention that when Kira came to play God only Shinn put up remotely a fight against his Godemodeing while Athrun was one hit into oblivion like he was nothing. There's no denying that pilot to pilot that Shinn was much more skilled than Retiree Athrun and the Destiny was made out to be the ultimate Gundam spec-wise that was leagues ahead of the competition.

Than there's Athrun being pretty much a returning retiree and his combat prowess falling far behind Shinn's who was the one that was saving everyone and doing impossible missions for the Minerva crew.

Destiny was pretty much...


Destiny <---> Strike Freedom depending on who had the stronger plot armor at the time. Though Spec-wise and considering versatility the Destiny was leagues ahead of the Strike Freedom.



Everything Else.

[Gundamx]

errr Athrun was not in seed mode when he got one shot ( shin was one shot out side seed mode too// even when kira was in SF he was able to easily killed him outside seed mode if he want like in orb battle)

also strike freedom =/= freedom ( they use different style to fight > try gundam game like Gundam: Extreme VS)

also from my point of view Freedom is stronger than SF ( faster and have more power/better engine)

the problem with Kira > is that he is speed type > which mean if you are not careful you can end up losing before you know what happened to you.
(it's like rouge with beam knife > plate armor = paper > fast death)

[Destined_Fate]

No, he was disarmed(Literally) by Kira who took advantage of his surprise appearance. When Shinn has his round 2 he completely demolished Kira.

Back on my other point. The Destiny was made to be the Ultimate Gundam of its series just like the Zeta was the Ultimate Gundam of its series. Shinn was to be the modern day version of Kamille, however things are different from back than. Had Zeta come out in the day and age that Destiny did than Kamille, who was just as rowdy and disobedient as Shinn(Even more so since he was literally punching everyone out that pissed him off), would have developed very differently and the calls for Amuro's return would have been deafening just like the calls for Kira were. Thus his role would have been expanded to the Lead role at the cost of Kamille. This would have ruined Kamille since like Shinn he was still developing at that point and like Shinn hadn't even gotten his upgrade when Amuro appeared.

This is reinforced more by the fact that the jump between the Impulse to Destiny(Just like the jump from Gundam MK.II to Zeta was huge) was staggering in scope while the Infinite Justice and Strike Freedom just looked like Justice and Freedom with a few more things tacked on. It's obvious that they had wanted to push Athrun into the role of Quattro(With Saviour being his Hyaku Shiki) and serve to mentor Shinn(Though they managed to remove the reason why Char worked so well with Kamille when they pushed Athrun to this role and instead of a mentor role he came off as just abusive and cruel to Shinn). With how rushed Strike Freedom was(It was literally just New Freedom that took beam spam to the 11) it's clear they hadn't planned to hand Kira a new Gundam just like Amuro didn't get a real upgrade in Zeta.

Kira was supposed to end up the bad ass Amuro of Destiny who did important things but didn't steal the show like Amuro didn't steal the show from Kamille since Zeta was Kamille's story just like Destiny was supposed to be Shinn's story not the Continuation of Amuro's story or Kira's story. Obviously this angered fans that "liked" Kamille but they wanted Amuro to be the lead anyway because he was the "Original" Bad ass. Since that was a long time ago the movement to dethrone Kamille and put Amuro back in the spotlight was unorganized(Though not any less zealous) compared to the massive, and organized, outpouring to replace the Likeable Shinn with the even more Likeable Kira who was riding on the waves of SEED popularity.

It was all about execution and them failing to understand how vast the landscape had changed between the time of Kamille to the time of Shinn or how organized and rabid the SEED fanbase had grown(Thus making the decision to rush Destiny out to cap on the still burning desires of the SEED fanbase a double edged sword that backfired harshly) that they refused to give Shinn a chance because he wasn't Kira. Just like there are still bitter fans to this day that refuse to acknowledge that Kamille was ever a successor to Amuro's legacy though nowhere near as bitter as the hate they have for the entire ZZ cast and story.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Destiny <---> Strike Freedom depending on who had the stronger plot armor at the time. Though Spec-wise and considering versatility the Destiny was leagues ahead of the Strike Freedom.

Fighting Strike Freedom’s Dragoons is pretty difficult though. Even more so if you know how to use it effectively & efficiently, which Kira does since he has more experience than Shinn (he fought many difficult battles and survives in both SEED and Destiny).

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

When Shinn has his round 2 he completely demolished Kira.

How can you say that when we all know that Kira was holding back from killing the pilot by not aiming for the cockpit when Shin had his round 2? Shinn knew about it from Rey and completely took advantage of Kira’s “kindness”. And do you not remember how many Impulse silhouettes got trashed by Kira before Shinn replacing it again & again? So, no, Shinn is never “completely demolished” Kira in Destiny since Kira was playing with handycap + must protect/worry about the Archangel.

Even though I sound like this, I’m no Kira worshipper and I DO hate Shinn got sidelined in Destiny. Still, credit must be given when it’s due.

[Destined_Fate]

Strike Freedoms DRAGOONS weren't even real DRAGOONS with all things consodered. Kira was retired and had stopped fighting since the end of SEED. He was skilled but his old experience had grown rusty when compared to Shinn winning battle after battle against powerful foes.

Kira always fights that way, he still managed to stomp everyone else he came across that tried anything even remotely similiar. Kira hadn't expected Shinn to be much mre skilled than even say Athrun was who Kira had one shotted awhile ago without even batting an eye.

And yes he completely demolished Kira. The silhousettes arguement is weak onsidering how much beam spam Kira goes through in a single battle to take out a single foe. If that's held against Shinn than Kira must be the worst pilot around.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Strike Freedoms DRAGOONS weren't even real DRAGOONS with all things consodered. Kira was retired and had stopped fighting since the end of SEED. He was skilled but his old experience had grown rusty when compared to Shinn winning battle after battle against powerful foes.

Kira always fights that way, he still managed to stomp everyone else he came across that tried anything even remotely similiar. Kira hadn't expected Shinn to be much mre skilled than even say Athrun was who Kira had one shotted awhile ago without even batting an eye.

And yes he completely demolished Kira. The silhousettes arguement is weak onsidering how much beam spam Kira goes through in a single battle to take out a single foe. If that's held against Shinn than Kira must be the worst pilot around.

Ummm...so what exactly is “real” DRAGOONS to begin with? And what is the difference between SF’s DRAGOONS & Providence’s? This is not sarcasm btw. Just curious.

No,no. You said: “completely demolished”. That can only be said when one completely defeat the other in battle when they give it their all. You can’t say that when one party is holding back until the end.

For silhouettes argument: Basically they are spare parts to build a complete MS. IIRC, Kira destroyed Impulse’s silhouettes twice (without aiming for the easy one, like the cockpit). So, when he fought Shinn, Kira literally destroyed two or more Impulses before got defeated by Shinn. So, Impulse’s silhouettes is an advantage for Shinn. It can't be denied since Shinn really depended on those during battle with Freedom.

[Soaring Griffin]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Strike Freedoms DRAGOONS weren't even real DRAGOONS with all things consodered.

How were they not real Dragoon's?

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Kira always fights that way, he still managed to stomp everyone else he came across that tried anything even remotely similiar. Kira hadn't expected Shinn to be much mre skilled than even say Athrun was who Kira had one shotted awhile ago without even batting an eye.

It's still a handicap and Shinn is the first one in the series to take advantage of that.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

And yes he completely demolished Kira. The silhousettes arguement is weak onsidering how much beam spam Kira goes through in a single battle to take out a single foe. If that's held against Shinn than Kira must be the worst pilot around.

Kira only really beam spams when against multiple units. Against single opponents his attacks are more varied.

[Rising Dragon]

The only real difference between the Providence and Strike Freedom's DRAGOON units were size and number of gunports. In that case, the Freedom's DRAGOONs had LESS firepower than the Providence and the Legend and were mostly larger in size as well.

And let's please not get back into the Shinn vs. Kira argument. That debate's been done to death many times over. The horse is beyond dead; it is now glue.

[rakusukira]

please... if Kira just abandons his no kill policy, Shinn is good as dead. WE all know that. the only 2 pilots who could reaaly par with Kira is Athrun and Rau. Now that is a valid argument.