Penguin Drum - General Discussion

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Shiroth

There's a reason why those episode titles are in spoiler tags. Care to keep them in spoiler tags? It's nice not to spoiler those that don't want to see them.

Agree, i think we can speculate on any hints within the episode because Ikuhara purposely include them in. However episode tittles are out there more due to commercialized reason

[Nina.Wolken]

Visual details are so abundant it sometimes gets hard to pick elements like this one:



This conveyor belt gears : "turbine of some sort/Child Broiler/ここどどもも"

The turbine symbol maybe the "entrance" of the Child Broiler where kids come from. I think Kaze-kun (?) said earlier he thought Child Broiler was the place souls waited before to reach life and I've now to agree with this idea

There is now a direct connection between Sanetoshi's world and the Child Broiler, which following the gears leads to "kids" ie, birth... our world.

Originally Posted by wandering-dreamer

What I want to know is why Pingroup is now interested in the kids instead of Kiba and what the symbolism of the Penguin Force sticker coming off the top of the Pingroup symbol has, PF is a front for PG?

If this conveyor belt really is the way to our world via birth (or so it is implied by its gears), it's the path to Life itself.
Then the Pingroup.inc seals could be a laisser-passer for our world. A symbol of living things ? While a package marked with the Penguin Force seal wouldn't be allowed to enter our world (because it represent death?).

So far, we can assume the Queen of Crystal is one true alley/messenger/embodiment of Penguin Force but she doesn't exist in our world! She has to drag Kanba, Shou and Ringo in her own dimension to communicate with them.
Also, she states coming from the "place of their destiny" which is pretty much accepted as meaning "death".

So we get :

Pingroup.inc = Good to live -> Birth
Penguin Force = Won't enter human world -> Death
Kiga = the in between -> Life (?)

I'm trying to feat Solace and Forsaken Infinity classifications here but doesn't quite feat. But I do agree with this assessment:

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

I still think Penguin Force and Pingroup are competitors and Kiga is the overseer or something.

Or rather, Pingroup.inc and Penguin Force would be prefect antagonists while Kiga, in between would mostly suffer the outcome of their struggle. Which doesn't prevent it from trying to weight on this outcome by using Natsume and Kanba notably.

More on the fruit of destiny (and specula) :
The apple exchange between Mysterious Boy 1 and Himari* in that scene is called "fruit of destiny" by the boy (?): But what we see is "Kiga" stamped on it.
If Kiga is "Life", then the apple basically led Himari to our world.
Good? No.
The Broiler purpose is to give time to the souls to mature, being strong enough to live. By accepting (presumably only half) of the apple, Himari bypassed the Broiler system and came to life weaker than she should have.
Hence her weak health and death in episode 01.
Whoever gave her the Kiga apple possibly knew what would happen and I see him more like a threat to Himari in this story than a beloved destined person.
But why would have him done such thing to Himari? Selfishness? For the Princess of the Crystal sake (Himari is, with her half-life the perfect vessel for an entity who isn't allowed in the living world)...

Also I can't help to compare this scene to Utena's found memories of her beloved Prince who "saved her" in the past. Turn out he was the biggest jerk on the face of Earth (imho) so yeah, kinda cautious here.

*Himari is wearing the Princess of the Crystal hat when she remembers this scene. Are those her memories or the Princess' ones?

Damn, turn out pretty lengthy. Sorry.

[zeando]

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

Damn, turn out pretty lengthy. Sorry.

nah, it was very interesting :3

if the child's broiler= "souls birth waiting room" theory comes up being true, it may be a passage way where there is a change of influence from PForces --> PGroup (or a neutral zone controlled by Kiga), assuming after death souls can restart anew

and maybe Kiga is between life and death in the form of neutral zone when one is changing faction
like a circle of: --> [ Kiga(broiler) --> PGroup --> Kiga(sky library/sanetoshi's hole library) --> PForce --> ] Kiga(broiler) --> Pgroup --> Kiga --> PForce --> Kiga(boiler) --> ecc...
owning Kiga both the "end" and the "start", that gear belt may be a shortcut between those 2 Kiga checkpoints

so the kid Himari met in the broiler, who had an apple, was someone who had already completed a circle once and after dieing got the apple, like himari later did too, and after finding Himari used that apple with her

[Nina.Wolken]

Originally Posted by zeando

and maybe Kiga is between life and death in the form of neutral zone when one is changing faction
like a circle of: --> [ Kiga(broiler) --> PGroup --> Kiga(sky library/sanetoshi's hole library) --> PForce --> ] Kiga(broiler) --> Pgroup --> Kiga --> PForce --> Kiga(boiler) --> ecc...
owning Kiga both the "end" and the "start", that gear belt may be a shortcut between those 2 Kiga checkpoints

I'm also thinking it all works as a circle, but rather than putting Kiga at the origin, I'd see it like this :

-> Conveyor belt (Pingroup.inc) optional
-> Children Broiler (Pingroup.inc)
-> Birth (Pingroup.inc)
-> Life (Kiga)
-> Princess of the Cristal universe (Penguin force) irregularity
-> Death (Penguin force)
-> Central Library's Hole in the Sky / Sanetoshi's universe (Penguin force)
-> Conveyor belt etc...

Also why books in the Library are "Kiga" books : : possibly because they are stories of lives. Not only Himari's life should be written here, but every other human lives should be recorded in that place.
Question : whose book did San-chan brought back with her at the end of episode 09?

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Since we're beginning to speculate about future episodes, I think I should post this now:

New information about upcoming episodes from 2ch (TL'd by GH):

Spoiler for episode titles:

Station 10: But I Love You/Him/Her/It (9/15)
Script: Ikuhara & Ikami Takayo - Director, Storyboard, Animation Director: Goto Keiji

Station 11: So You Finally Opened Your Eyes (9/22)
Script: Ikuhara & Ikami Takayo - Director: Yamazaki Mitsue - Storyboard: Ikuhara & Kaneko Shingo & Yamazaki Mitsue - Animation Director: Nakamura Miyuki

Station 12: The Wheel That Spins Us 'Round (9/29)
Script: Ikuhara & Ikami Takayo - Director: Shibata Masanori - Storyboard: Ikuhara & Shibata Masanori - Animation Director: Baba Mitsuko

Station 13: Your and My Crime and Punishment (10/4) {note: the "my" here is 僕 which heavily implies Shoma}
Script: Ikuhara & Ikami Takayo - Director: TBA - Storyboard: Ikuhara & Furukawa Tomohiro - Animation Director: Nishii Terumi

Station 14: TBA (10/11)
Script: Ikuhara & Ikami Takayo - Director & Storyboard: Yamazaki Mituse - Animation Director: TBA

Spoiler for For Episode Title 13 and Novel Chapter 1:

I am wondering if this is the episode we will find out what Kanba meant when he said "this is probably our punishment" after Himari died.

In the anime I was unsure even though he said "we" if he was just referring to himself but in the novel it is made clear that Shouma does know exactly what he is talking about. These our Shouma's thoughts after Kanba's line

"It felt like I’d been stabbed in the heart. It’s not like the thought hadn’t crossed my mind. But, it was just a coincidence, I wrote it off as my childish, overactive imagination and locked it away in a little black box in the corner of my mind.

Punishment. That’s what it is. We’re hopeless children even if we’re punished. If we just keep living like this, we’ll probably hurt someone. Was that what Himari was burdened with? Little Himari, all by herself."

[gumi]

I don't think that Ikuhara would be such a lazy ass to just create spin-offs of his Utena characters in Mawaru Penguin Drum.
He must be pretty sure that fans will be comparing this series with Utena - for example, the character of Sanetoshi to Akio/Mikage because their certainly very similar in their overall aura - so I expect him to turn everyone's expectations upside down at the end.

Thus, I'm the most wary of the goody two-shoes characters like Shouma and suspect that characters like Sanetoshi or Masako will turn up good or at least neutral at the end.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by gumi

Thus, I'm the most wary of the goody two-shoes characters like Shouma and suspect that characters like Sanetoshi or Masako will turn up good or at least neutral at the end.

Sanetoshi I am not sure about! Masako however I expect is really not bad but is being manipulated.

The novel is mostly though Shouma's perspective and his thoughts are definitely a lot darker than you would think from his characterization in the anime. So while I don't think Shouma will turn out to be a "villain" I also don't think he is a goody two shoes either.

[zeando]

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

I'm also thinking it all works as a circle, but rather than putting Kiga at the origin, I'd see it like this :

-> Conveyor belt (Pingroup.inc) optional
-> Children Broiler (Pingroup.inc)
-> Birth (Pingroup.inc)
-> Life (Kiga)
-> Princess of the Cristal universe (Penguin force) irregularity
-> Death (Penguin force)
-> Central Library's Hole in the Sky / Sanetoshi's universe (Penguin force)
-> Conveyor belt etc...

Also why books in the Library are "Kiga" books : : possibly because they are stories of lives. Not only Himari's life should be written here, but every other human lives should be recorded in that place.
Question : whose book did San-chan brought back with her at the end of episode 09?

i was thinking something more like this:

but which zone is controlled by who can easily change not affecting the general structure, like you assigned Kiga to life while i did to Pgroup
while drawing this it came up to have a similar shape of the Kiga's mark >.<

about which book p3 took, since himari asked her to look for frog saves tokyo i'm expecting her to have been able to find it, but it may also be an other different book she took :|

[klare]

i was prepare to see Sho in hospital or a broken down Ringo, but Himari's story unexpectedly came up

i like how that penguin kicked and flipped the elevator buttons panel^^ things started to get very interesting after that

realising the similarities of this show with Utena, that librarian surely is a playboy...

[Nina.Wolken]

Originally Posted by zeando

i was thinking something more like this:

but which zone is controlled by who can easily change not affecting the general structure, like you assigned Kiga to life while i did to Pgroup
while drawing this it came up to have a similar shape of the Kiga's mark >.<

That's a nice representation! Like how you ended up with Kiga mark really! Even if it all end up completely wrong, I'm willing to take over a bit if you don't mind (m__)m

Originally Posted by zeando

about which book p3 took, since himari asked her to look for frog saves tokyo i'm expecting her to have been able to find it, but it may also be an other different book she took :|

Sanetoshi said the library had all the knowledge of the world in it. So that's also possible.

[risingstar3110]

Keep re-watched the second part of this episode,and i think the pace and the music were played to perfection. Definitely 10/10 for me

There are several questions were arisen during this episode and along with what we had before, they are:
- Penguin Drum and everything surround it (what is it for, why is it needed)
- What is "that", the event which led to Himari leaving school and probably the start of all this
- Who is Himari's fate partner? I don't think anyone among the main cast can be excluded.
- What do Kanba do behind everyone back

[zeando]

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

That's a nice representation! Like how you ended up with Kiga mark really! Even if it all end up completely wrong, I'm willing to take over a bit if you don't mind (m__)m

i don't mind ^_^ your shape is also good, it gives sense to the eyes and the mouth xD

thinking about the recycle simbol, i've to check, but i remember seeing it in the opening too :/ (but maybe it's only a reference to the subway track)
edit. here it is

[gumi]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Sanetoshi I am not sure about! Masako however I expect is really not bad but is being manipulated.

The novel is mostly though Shouma's perspective and his thoughts are definitely a lot darker than you would think from his characterization in the anime. So while I don't think Shouma will turn out to be a "villain" I also don't think he is a goody two shoes either.

Well, I wouldn't really like it if it turned out that Masako is being manipulated or a victim of some organization, just as wouldn't like to see Sanetoshi (or any other guy) as a final boss. It's kinda Double Standard for me
I still hope Ikuhara manages to break away form the stereotypes and surprise me (and other fans).
As for now, he's doing pretty good job at it with Ringo. Hopefully, he keeps up the trend

[Nina.Wolken]

Originally Posted by zeando

i don't mind ^_^ your shape is also good, it gives sense to the eyes and the mouth xD

The eyes as "holes" in both worlds make sense to me, since they feat in the theory that :
-Princess of the Crystal is actually a "dead entity" who is not allowed to enter the world of living people
-Library is a parcel of life in the realm of death : Himari entered the Library the moment she died, to come back to life once she left it. Somehow, her soul didn't disappear like any other when she died but found refuge here (because she ate the fruit of destiny?).

Edit : To be noted also how once the Princess of the Crystal wakes up : right when she stop Sanetoshi, this is not Himari speaking it seems but the Princess, the Library vanished and Himari/Princess fall back to Himari's body. Why did the Library vanishes at that point? Because the Princess isn't allowed to be in this place (again, Pingroup.inc territory ie realm of the living).

As for the mouth... I may have push it a bit too far lol

Originally Posted by zeando

thinking about the recycle simbol, i've to check, but i remember seeing it in the opening too :/ (but maybe it's only a reference to the subway track)
edit. here it is

It feats so perfectly I can't repress a smirk ￣ー￣)

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

The eyes as "holes" in both worlds make sense to me, since they feat in the theory that :
-Princess of the Crystal is actually a "dead entity" who is not allowed to enter the world of living people
-Library is a parcel of life in the realm of death : Himari entered the Library the moment she died, to come back to life once she left it. Somehow, her soul didn't disappear like any other when she died but found refuge here (because she ate the fruit of destiny?).
Then being drag back to her body by the Princess who uses her as a vessel.

As for the mouth... I may have push it a bit too far lol



It feats so perfectly I can't repress a smirk ￣ー￣)

While your theory makes lots of sense, there's several things that i want to point out (just for the sake of theoretical challenge):

• The brothers and Ringo were pulled over to...death side(?)... whenever The Penguin Queen (once again i like this name more than PoC) appeared? And Sanetoshi also mentioned how he will appear when Himari need him again. Does it means it's possible to commute between death and life?
• If the "kid's broiler" room is the start and the library is the end. Why is there a contrast in nature between these two places? The Broiler Room are full of random kids, while the Library seems to be a place only for those holding special privileges.
• I don't think the conveyor is significant or act as a symbol for anything, as the penguin (and Himari) crossed to the library using elevator and the "puzzle" door

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

It could also mean Shouma waking up though (since the general speculation is that he will be in a coma for a while). Both are valid interpretations of course, and maybe both things could happen at the same time too....

That was certainly my immediate guess.

[Nina.Wolken]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

[*]The brothers and Ringo were pulled over to...death side(?)... whenever The Penguin Queen (once again i like this name more than PoC) appeared?

I certainly can't explain how she drags them with her, but I think she does. Maybe by mean of short coma? I'm not sure there is any rational explanation for people around Himari who are affected. One thing is clear however, the hat (i.e PoC) is needed for Himari to enter the PoC world and get out of it. From episode 05 we know that being trapped in means death.
Q.E.D : PoC world = death.

And Sanetoshi also mentioned how he will appear when Himari need him again. Does it means it's possible to commute between death and life?

Sanetoshi inhabits the Library, which is in the Living part. The place where Himari took refuge before coming back to our world. So no, he can't commute between death and life, but he can navigate between the Library and our world I presume.
If he does however, that will mean he shares with Himari an extraordinary faculty. He did say himself when she entered the Library that only chosen people could come there and she was the 1st in a very long time.
Another time the term chosen is used in the episode is when Himari (?) received the fruit of destiny in the Children Broiler. Coincidence?
Does that mean Sanetoshi is her fated person? Too early to tell. Plus he seems more interested in PoC

[*]If the "kid's broiler" room is the start and the library is the end. Why is there a contrast in nature between these two places? The Broiler Room are full of random kids, while the Library seems to be a place only for those holding special privileges.

Children broiler is at the border between Death and Life (the door to our world). It isn't connected with the Library which could be anywhere in the realm of death (or could also be at the entry as zeando proposed). Doesn't change the fact Library and Broiler are two different places with different purposes.

[*]I don't think the conveyor is significant or act as a symbol for anything, as the penguin (and Himari) crossed to the library using elevator and the "puzzle" door

The conveyor does somehow connect the Death world (I assume that's what Himari cross once the Library disappears before to regain her body) to our world. I doubt too it's really important, but his design (gears) did explain how the Children Broiler led to Life.

[vaden]

Wow. Most of the symbolism went straight over my head, but episode 9 was a great return to form. The surreal direction that was missing in the past few episodes came back with a vengeance here. Loved the Murakami hat-tip, too, which feels incredibly appropriate for a series like this.

Originally Posted by rising_tide

So it'd be pretty safe to assume that Himari did not leave school for anything gas related, unless some ridiculous plot twist reveals that the police somehow connected the Takakura family with a terrorist attack 12 years ago.

They may have been longtime members of the cult living in secret; there's still a lingering hostility towards Aum Shinrikyo within the Japanese public. If the Takakura parents were outed as members, even ones not directly connected to the sarin attacks, there could have been enough of a backlash to make Himari withdraw from school. If you read Murakami's The Place that Was Promised (appropriately enough), several Aum members give these kinds of accounts of being ostracized from wider society.

[Marisa Kirisame]

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

That's a nice representation! Like how you ended up with Kiga mark really! Even if it all end up completely wrong, I'm willing to take over a bit if you don't mind (m__)m





Sanetoshi said the library had all the knowledge of the world in it. So that's also possible.

Is it just me or does that diagram look dangerously close to the penguin logos

[Nina.Wolken]

Originally Posted by Marisa Kirisame

Is it just me or does that diagram look dangerously close to the penguin logos

zeando came with this design based on common ideas .
I simply customized it a bit.