Wotaku ni Koi wa Muzukashii

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Razdent

I heard some good things about this show but I didn't make it far so sorry if I say some things that got explained later.

The side couple that was introduced was so much more entertaining than the main couple. Oddly enough that pretty much turned me off the show entirely. Seeing how the main "couple" act in comparison is just awful and unrealistic in so many ways.

The main girl is experienced in relationships but she acts clueless when she's with her boyfriend because... I don't even know why, I just know that it made the show very annoying to sit through. The main guy just comes off as kinda pathetic for how much he's pining for her and I didn't see enough to care about why he even likes her. He really couldn't find someone to go out with throughout the years he was separated from her?

Anyway, I guess the show just didn't click with me to continue watching. I basically agree with FredFriendly's thoughts on it so I'm glad I wasn't the only one turning my head sideways when thinking about how bad (in a general sense) the main couple are.

Based off the latest comments it seems like the couple didn't improve in the way I would've hoped so I think I'm better off not picking this show up later even if they do progress their relationship.

Hope y'all enjoy the rest though, it's rare to find a show with older characters.

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

The main thing that Kayonagi and Kabakura's relationship has that Narumi and Hirotaka's is completely devoid of is mutual passion. As much as Kayonagi and Kabakura banter and fight, they clearly are passionately in love with each other. Hirotaka is very much in love with Narumi, but she has yet to show any signs that she thinks of him as anything other than an otaku buddy.



They were separated for at least ten years and, whereas Hirotaka was probably pining for Narumi the whole time, she probably never thought about him at all. All that time they spent together before High School is full of precious memories for Hirotaka, but it doesn't seem to mean anything to Narumi as she doesn't remember any of it.

while i understand the "hate toward the main couple" you must understand which they are different from the secondary couple, narumi is very childshi and all her previous relationships where "empty and devoid" as we see how much "embarrassed" she is with hirotaka, i could say which probably she still "virgin", because she never could really connect with her previous partners, because of her embarrassement about being otaku, she still too naive and childshi and a bit of innocent, while hirotaka is totally unexperienced since narumi was his true love and he didn't go with any other girl, he was almost a shut-in, this make him don't know how to proper aproaching her, then no matter how much he love's her, if him don't know how to proper deal with her them the "abyss" between them will be there, ofcourse it's also her fault for being too naive and childshi due to her failed relationships, she become too defensive and with hirotaka she finally had a chance to be "herself" without any embarrasiment, this is what make her missunderstood her relationship with hirotaka with something more like a friendship since he do too little to improve it, she love's him but her image of they childhood bond and friendship still strong on her and it make her behavious like that but for sure she like him, she just even worst them him when comes to deal with it.

Another note having "many relationships not aways means "being experiencied and good" it also means which she was really bad at connect with "peoples", all her relationships goes from few weeks to one month at best, this show how much bad she was, Narume is the "gender bender" of you "generic dense childshi mc" which is in love with the girl but due to "japanese things" is too shy or dense or childshi to proper deal with it.

[FredFriendly]

I just can't find the motivation to argue about your justifications for Narumi's romantic indifference towards Hirotaka. Many of your assumptions are inaccurately based on your unsubstantiated claim of the length Narumi's prior affairs:

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

...all her relationships goes from few weeks to one month at best...

I suggest you re-watch episode 1 where Narumi quite clearly states, "I was dating this hot guy from my last job, but he found out I was an otaku right before our one-year anniversay, got all weird about it, and then dumped me."

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

I just can't find the motivation to argue about your justifications for Narumi's romantic indifference towards Hirotaka. Many of your assumptions are inaccurately based on your unsubstantiated claim of the length Narumi's prior affairs:



I suggest you re-watch episode 1 where Narumi quite clearly states, "I was dating this hot guy from my last job, but he found out I was an otaku right before our one-year anniversay, got all weird about it, and then dumped me."

hmmm i need to rewatch and read the manga, but really excluding the "lengt of time which she had her relationships,i could read wrong on that however she being naive and childshi still stand, i can't say too much due to spoilers, but it's not really as you think and hirotaka does have fault here, his inerxperience is part of the problem because in japan is expectated the "guy being the pusher than the woman".

Again is pretty common in japan take weeks or even months before a couple can even kiss or hold hands and things like that, which is one of the issues to low relationships number in japan, many japaneses lack totally social skills due to being too much shy or too much "selfcentered" due to social pressure and all the bla bla bla, it is very clear at last in the manga which she is really bad with relationships exactly because she have to "act in a different way" and unable to being herself.

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

hmmm i need to rewatch and read the manga, but really excluding the "lengt of time which i could read wrong her being naive and childshi still stand, i can't say too much due to spoilers, but it's not really as you think and hirotaka does have fault here, his inerxperience is part of the problem because in japan is expectated the "guy being the pusher than the woman".

Again is pretty common in japan take weeks or even months before a couple can even kiss or hold hands and things like that, which is one of the issues to low relationships number in japan, many japaneses lack totally social skills due to being too much shy or too much "selfcentered" due to social pressure and all the bla bla bla, it is very clear at last in the manga which she is really bad with relationships exactly because she have to "act in a different way" and unable to being herself.

I am not disagreeing that Narumi is naive and childish, nor just about anything else in this post. Nonetheless, it's just pretty obvious that Narumi is not "in love" with Hirotaka and considers him as nothing more than an otaku buddy. Take away the label "dating," and Narumi would act no differently towards Hirotaka. If he were to flirt with other girls, she would not get jealous since she's not in love with him and she doesn't even consider him boyfriend material. If they broke up, it wouldn't phase her at all. He has clearly said what he likes about her, but pretty much everything she says about him is derogatory, rude or insulting.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

I am not disagreeing that Narumi is naive and childish, nor just about anything else in this post. Nonetheless, it's just pretty obvious that Narumi is not "in love" with Hirotaka and considers him as nothing more than an otaku buddy. Take away the label "dating," and Narumi would act no differently towards Hirotaka. If he were to flirt with other girls, she would not get jealous since she's not in love with him and she doesn't even consider him boyfriend material. If they broke up, it wouldn't phase her at all. He has clearly said what he likes about her, but pretty much everything she says about him is derogatory, rude or insulting.

well again she really do love him it's just she is missunderstand her currently relationship with her past childhood friendship with him, i can't say too much to be spoiler but let's say which in some points you are totally wrong and she really act like she don't like him a lot, but she really like him, again just gende bender her with any generic "otaku romcom mc" which her actions make a lot of sense, she act exactly like many otakus mcs which are like that, totally dense and unaware of the peoples in love around her.

And that is the "center of this anime" how can be complicated a romance between too deep otakus, hirotaka is a "die hard game otaku" which can prefer to spend a lot of time playing games alone even in a relationship, while narumi is the "bl" maniac fushoji and also like games a lot (less than hirotaka), which both of them where really bad at relationships, the only difference is hirotaka lack any experience with relationships, while narumi had a really bad experience wit relationships, where she aways had to hidden herself and do things which she don't liked and never really could connect with any of her "previous lovers".

Another note is which you can't look at the other couple and them compare with main couple, they had a totall difference in experience, which make a huge difference between the main couple.

the holiday episode was a exemple, where while the second couple expend it in a real date the main couple was like "playing game at home" and hirotaka don't really did anything to improve they relationships, he just agree in play games with her, that is the problem while she is stuck in act more like a otaku budy than a girlfriend, hirotaka also does little to try to make her leave that "safe zone" and it lead to they relationship really improve too little or a too slow pace.

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

...that is the problem while she is stuck in act more like a otaku budy than a girlfriend, hirotaka also does little to try to make her leave that "safe zone" and it lead to they relationship really improve too little or a too slow pace.

We're definitely not seeing eye-to-eye here, though we actually agree on many issues.

However, let's not forget that Hirotaka's one attempt to turn their relationship romantic was wholeheartedly and utterly rejected by Narumi. Her reaction was a loud and clear statement of, "You better not do that again." How can you blame him for not wanting to go through that again?

And why should it all be up to Hirotaka, anyway? What kind of sexist attitude is that? You know damn well that if it was Kabakura instead of Hirotaka, Narumi's reaction would have been entirely different even though he's also an otaku. She'd be trying to seduce Kabakura every chance she got.

Although I agree that Narumi may "love" Hirotaka as a friend (though it doesn't seem like it to me), she is not "in love" with him as a girlfriend.

And, please, stop assuming that I haven't read all 5 volumes...

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

We're definitely not seeing eye-to-eye here, though we actually agree on many issues.

However, let's not forget that Hirotaka's one attempt to turn their relationship romantic was wholeheartedly and utterly rejected by Narumi. Her reaction was a loud and clear statement of, "You better not do that again." How can you blame him for not wanting to go through that again?

And why should it all be up to Hirotaka, anyway? What kind of sexist attitude is that? You know damn well that if it was Kabakura instead of Hirotaka, Narumi's reaction would have been entirely different even though he's also an otaku. She'd be trying to seduce Kabakura every chance she got.

Although I agree that Narumi may "love" Hirotaka as a friend (though it doesn't seem like it to me), she is not "in love" with him as a girlfriend.

hmm again, let's disagree and go read the manga and maybe you can understand it better,

just remember how hirotaka asked her to "date" he don't say i love you or something like that he just "asked her on a date" cuz it could be better since he is also a otaku, he never told to her which he really love her or she was his first love and it is a issue in the manga, well i can't really spoiler if you want go read the manga.

Even this episode showed how she love him, cuz she worried about him during that rain issue, she love him but not as we are expectating.

Again pull a role rever and you see, narume is your "dense mc" while hirotaka is your childhood crush which never was able to be open about her feelings, maybe the anime is doing some changes here and there but overal the fault of they situation goes for both side and she does love him, she just not aware of that or take it too light since they relationship is too "slow".

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

hmm again, let's disagree and go read the manga and maybe you can understand it better.

Oh, please stop with the condescending attitude. I have "read" all 5 available volumes.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

Oh, please stop with the condescending attitude. I have "read" all 5 available volumes.

then if you had did it then, you know which it's not exactly like that what you are saying the problem goes to both sides.

another note as i told for what i saw so far in manga and anime i really don't feel like she "only like him as a friend", i really feel like she just the "naive and childshi and slow to catch person, eaxctly like many "male generic mcs", this is why i say this is a "role reverse", you have a naive childsh and slow to catch mc (girl) with a shy and bad at express himself childhood friend in love with her ( the male).

and about the "flirting with other guy, for what i saw and read was pretty the opposite is the other guy which keep being "jealous of her" and saying which she is his type", more than her boyfriend.

[Norn]

The problem comes from both sides. Though admittedly, it lies more with Narumi.

First for Hirotaka, he`s not communicating. If he`s not addressing his needs, all he`ll be doing is attending to Narumi`s needs. He also hasn`t clearly spelled it out for Narumi that he`s a guy. The result is that he`s in this very odd friendzone where's dating but also not dating. Usually it's girls that have to ask guys if they're exclusive, now it seems the opposite.


Narumi's problem is that she wants a boyfriend that she can share her otaku tendencies with. Not just someone who is understanding, but also someone who is willing to go buy manga with her, go to events with her and hold her booth if she needs to get a specific doujin or item. Basically, she wants an otaku + everything else she's looking for in a guy. Her accepting to date Hirotaka feels incredibly a lot like something accepted out of convenience. I don't think she's realized it, but somewhere she's still seeing him as her otaku friend. Not her otaku boyfriend. Even in this episode, she very clearly doesn't see him as man in a romantical sense. Adding to that, she's stuck in her preconceived notions about Hirotaka and who he is.

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by Norn

The problem comes from both sides. Though admittedly, it lies more with Narumi.

First for Hirotaka, he`s not communicating. If he`s not addressing his needs, all he`ll be doing is attending to Narumi`s needs. He also hasn`t clearly spelled it out for Narumi that he`s a guy. The result is that he`s in this very odd friendzone where's dating but also not dating. Usually it's girls that have to ask guys if they're exclusive, now it seems the opposite.


Narumi's problem is that she wants a boyfriend that she can share her otaku tendencies with. Not just someone who is understanding, but also someone who is willing to go buy manga with her, go to events with her and hold her booth if she needs to get a specific doujin or item. Basically, she wants an otaku + everything else she's looking for in a guy. Her accepting to date Hirotaka feels incredibly a lot like something accepted out of convenience. I don't think she's realized it, but somewhere she's still seeing him as her otaku friend. Not her otaku boyfriend. Even in this episode, she very clearly doesn't see him as man in a romantical sense. Adding to that, she's stuck in her preconceived notions about Hirotaka and who he is.

Well said, except...

How much more clearly can Hirotaka spell out to Narumi that he's a guy when in episode 3, after the disaster of a kiss, he specifically told Narumi that he is a man. It must have gone in one ear and out the other as 5 episodes later, she still doesn't see him as a man (in the carnal sense).

On another note, it did seem that Narumi had a rare but fleeting moment of awareness after Koyanagi wondered if Kabakura was dating her out of convenience. Unfortunately, it wasn't a moment of self-awareness and she didn't consider it was herself, not Hirotaka, who was dating out of convenience. Too bad for Hirotaka that he doesn't live up to "everything else she's looking for in a guy." If the younger brother was also an otaku, she'd likely prefer him over Hirotaka since he's cute whereas Narumi doesn't think Hirotaka is attractive at all.

[Kanon]

The flashback showing Narumi visiting a sick Hirotaka was really cute. And finally, some hint of progress at the end of the episode. I was initially very happy that Hirotaka and Narumi got together at the end of the first episode, but they've been a couple in name only. In the end, it's not that different from other anime romantic comedies.

[kari-no-sugata II]

They way I see it, we have two contrasting couples: The "established" couple who "say too much" as it were... and the "new" couple who "say too little".

Both have their ups and downs. Neither are ideal and both have room to grow. They're certainly not the same or equal and you'd also expect one pair to get more development than the other. It's just been a bit slow in coming.

[ArrowSmith]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

yeah it's somehow is another issue, it happen a lot because they feel which in order to "proof" they dedication to the work, they must do that "pos-work" interactions, that is why normally the japaneses which goes home normally ending goes really later, or it's pretty common for japaneses most of the times get back to home pass 22:00 to midnight, they not only had a borderline slavery work time but also need to "socialize with others workers or boss after leave the job, many do that "against the will" to avoid trouble in the job, because it could leave them with a bad reputation with co-workers and boss, it's the basic "mind hive" japanese mentality, being good at job aways come first than anything in they lifes.

A old say japanese is which if you work and marry someone then you are "married 2 times, cuz your first marriage will be your work.

It's interesting in anime that you see high schoolers engaged in loads of physical activity, but adults are sedentary and drink beer. I guess it reflects the reality of society, but that's pretty awful. I mean in America if early 20s people are in the gym or running. I wonder if Japanese look at exercise as something that ends at 18?

[ArrowSmith]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

hmm again, let's disagree and go read the manga and maybe you can understand it better,

just remember how hirotaka asked her to "date" he don't say i love you or something like that he just "asked her on a date" cuz it could be better since he is also a otaku, he never told to her which he really love her or she was his first love and it is a issue in the manga, well i can't really spoiler if you want go read the manga.

Even this episode showed how she love him, cuz she worried about him during that rain issue, she love him but not as we are expectating.

Again pull a role rever and you see, narume is your "dense mc" while hirotaka is your childhood crush which never was able to be open about her feelings, maybe the anime is doing some changes here and there but overal the fault of they situation goes for both side and she does love him, she just not aware of that or take it too light since they relationship is too "slow".

Ever heard of the Westermarck effect?

The Westermarck effect, or reverse sexual imprinting, is a hypothetical psychological effect through which people who live in close domestic proximity during the first few years of their lives become desensitized to sexual attraction.


It basically precludes childhood friends having a adult romantic relationship in most cases.

In fact this anime does the reverse - Narumi is the 'dense MC'. Every time Hirotaka tries a genuine romantic gesture, Narumi spazzes out like an autistic child(no offense to autistic children)...

If Narumi truly does not see Hirotaka is a romantic way she should at least have the decency to tell him, instead of stringing him along for her convenience.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by ArrowSmith

Ever heard of the Westermarck effect?

The Westermarck effect, or reverse sexual imprinting, is a hypothetical psychological effect through which people who live in close domestic proximity during the first few years of their lives become desensitized to sexual attraction.


It basically precludes childhood friends having a adult romantic relationship in most cases.

It really doesn't. "Close domestic proximity" is more than merely knowing each other since childhood.

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

However, let's not forget that Hirotaka's one attempt to turn their relationship romantic was wholeheartedly and utterly rejected by Narumi. Her reaction was a loud and clear statement of, "You better not do that again." How can you blame him for not wanting to go through that again?

All she said was that the mood at the time wasn't leading up to that and she was surprised. It's funny how, when Hanako hits Kabakura because she's embarassed, they're just being passionate or whatever, but when Narumi does it to Hirotaka, it means the relationship's dead.

[ArrowSmith]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It really doesn't. "Close domestic proximity" is more than merely knowing each other since childhood.



All she said was that the mood at the time wasn't leading up to that and she was surprised. It's funny how, when Hanako hits Kabakura because she's embarassed, they're just being passionate or whatever, but when Narumi does it to Hirotaka, it means the relationship's dead.

No. I think being in close proximity since childhood is sufficient. They don't need to have lived in the same house growing up to have the effect of negating sexual interest.

Kabakura and Hanako are clearly in a romantic relationship. Hanako obviously isn't into PDA which is fine. However Narumi has her own 'complexes' related to how she was dumped for being an otaku.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by ArrowSmith

No. I think being in close proximity since childhood is sufficient. They don't need to have lived in the same house growing up to have the effect of negating sexual interest.

It doesn't matter what you think. Without "close domestic proximity", the Westermarck Effect doesn't apply. Does knowing each other since childhood hinder romantic development? Maybe, I don't know. But even if it's so, the Westermarck Effect specifically concerns people who lived together while very young.

Kabakura and Hanako are clearly in a romantic relationship. Hanako obviously isn't into PDA which is fine. However Narumi has her own 'complexes' related to how she was dumped for being an otaku.

All I'm saying is, that headbutt after Hirotaka kissed her is no more meaningful than Hanako's slap in the last ep.

[ArrowSmith]

Ok, fair enough. However Narumi's reaction to Hirotaka wanting to go on a real date is either immaturity or shock that he thinks of her in a romantic way. Either way, it reflects badly on her.

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

All I'm saying is, that headbutt after Hirotaka kissed her is no more meaningful than Hanako's slap in the last ep.

I can't help but disagree. You are comparing a romantic relationship that has lasted almost as long as the average marriage in Tokyo (11 years), to a non-romantic relationship that, for all intents and purposes, is stuck over ten years in the past.

If we had seen a hint, a smidgen, an inkling of romantic feelings from Narumi toward Hirotaka it might be a different story. This was the first and only time that we've seen them kiss, and I'm probably not wrong in saying that this was actually the first time that they had kissed, and Narumi's actions speak far more loudly than her words.

And their [romantic] relationship isn't just dead. That would mean that it would, by definition, have had to be alive in the first place. Right now, it's really only a vague concept in Hirotaka's mind which may, or may not, come to fruition if Narumi is ever able to get over her prejudices and hangups (and Hirotaka can put up with her insensitivity long enough).

Originally Posted by ArrowSmith

Ok, fair enough. However Narumi's reaction to Hirotaka wanting to go on a real date is either immaturity or shock that he thinks of her in a romantic way.

It's more like the reaction she had when Hirotaka asked her about flirting with other girls: simply unimaginably beyond the borders of Narumi's preconceived notions of who Hirotaka is.

Either way, it reflects badly on her.

Yup. As an otaku buddy, Narumi's doing just fine, but she fails miserably as a girlfriend. And not just with Hirotaka...