Macross Frontier Character Discussion - Ranka Lee

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And as far as contrast goes, I see it more as comparison between what kind of persons they are than a "wow, Sheryl is so much more serious about Alto than Ranka is".

Yes, there is something puppyish about Ranka's behavior. That doesn't mean she loves Alto less deeply. Just that she's less inclined to and/or adept than Sheryl at hiding her own emotions.

Heck, just look at how they felt around him. They were basically the same. Both were glad to see him, both were sad the attention he gave the other and sought to grab it for herself. But the way they expressed it was different. Slight moue for Sheryl, big sad puppy eyes for Ranka.

I am not saying that their way of expressing themselves makes Ranka less of a nice person than Sheryl or somesuch.

I do think that Sheryls feeling are deeper, because the way she expresses them appear to be more mature than Rankas. This can be of personal preference, because I´d vastly prefer someone like Sheryl over someone like Ranka.

In the end, it always comes down to personal preferences, doesn´t it?

[Anh_Minh]

I'd prefer someone like Sheryl too. But that doesn't make me conclude her feelings are deeper.

It's like... After a big soccer game, you see some of the players in tears (either joy or sorrow), while others are more reserved. Do you conclude that the latter cared more about the game?

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I'd prefer someone like Sheryl too. But that doesn't make me conclude her feelings are deeper.

It's like... After a big soccer game, you see some of the players in tears (either joy or sorrow), while others are more reserved. Do you conclude that the latter cared more about the game?

I´d argue that being in love and feeling joy over a won soccer game are two different things. :P

I´ll see if I can think up further things to argue about, but at the moment I am at work and therefore a bit distracted.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I´d argue that being in love and feeling joy over a won soccer game are two different things. :P

Forgive him, Anh_Minh probably never seen a football game in Europe. If he did, he'd know that its much more addictive than taking drugs

- Tak

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Tak

Forgive him, Anh_Minh probably never seen a football game in Europe. If he did, he'd know that its much more addictive than taking drugs

- Tak

Oh, when I was in school, I played goalkeeper. Then I moved to Paraguay, began training in Wado-Ryu Karate ( sadly, I am not anymore... work full-time terminated that hard. ) and kinda fell out of love with football.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

and kinda fell out of love with football.

WHAT!?

- Tak

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Tak

WHAT!?

- Tak

Soccer kinda loses its luster when you practice a sport where the whole point is that you can punch other people in the face.

[Anh_Minh]

I'm French. I've seen a few football games. Playing's OK. Watching's generally boring. (Like most sports, really. With the possible exception of topless dart throwing on ice.)

And my point wasn't that love and football are the same, but that reactions, taken out of the context of the indivual personalities of the people reacting, are poor indicators of the depth of the feelings of said people.

Sheryl expresses herself more maturely and is more self-controlled because she, herself, is more mature and self-controlled than Ranka. Not because she's more in love.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I'm French. I've seen a few football games. Playing's OK. Watching's generally boring. (Like most sports, really. With the possible exception of topless dart throwing on ice.)

And my point wasn't that love and football are the same, but that reactions, taken out of the context of the indivual personalities of the people reacting, are poor indicators of the depth of the feelings of said people.

Sheryl expresses herself more maturely and is more self-controlled because she, herself, is more mature and self-controlled than Ranka. Not because she's more in love.

Well, I´ll happily discuss if having a crush and being in love are different things ( as I feel, there is a vast difference between the two ), but for what else you said, I concur.

[Prov1]

I read the blogs, and only in the newest one did it talk about love...
also, basketball is the best sport in the world. No denying that

[stray]

Originally Posted by Prov1

I read the blogs, and only in the newest one did it talk about love...
also, basketball is the best sport in the world. No denying that

Hmmm... Love & Basketball?

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Well, I´ll happily discuss if having a crush and being in love are different things ( as I feel, there is a vast difference between the two ), but for what else you said, I concur.

I don't really get it... you guys are acting like a crush can't evolve into a relationship. If the feelings are mutual, and if you can bring yourself to not be bumbling idiots around each other... why not? Obviously, like everything in life there's no guarantee it's going to work out, but hey, at least you tried.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Sheryl expresses herself more maturely and is more self-controlled because she, herself, is more mature and self-controlled than Ranka. Not because she's more in love.

I take issue with anyone calling Sheryl mature and/or self-controlled. Especially considering half the fact she's so awesome is that she's so damn spastic and reckless. But, this isn't the Sheryl thread so... another time.

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by stray

No offense Swamp but I think you and OD might be reading too much into this one... Let me backtrack and explain.

I suppose I should have put a little disclaimer at the start of my last post.

We aren't dealing with real people so much as we are with the script writers' impressions of how real people act, so trying to study the psychology of the characters probably won't give you special insights into the characters' behavior.

But I think the purpose of this sort of discussion isn't to unearth some sort of hidden truth, as much as it is to explain why we may get certain "vibes" from watching that particular character act.

In Ranka's case, many people seem to describe her as dependent. So if we can understand how Ranka's actions match up with people in our own experiences who exhibit dependent traits, then we might gain some insight into why we feel that way.

Originally Posted by stray

Between episode 5 and episode 6 we had Alto go from 'ahhhh... Ranka' during the Formo concert to 'here's a ticket, bitch' while everyone was sitting around the table. And for the next few episodes, I mean... Ranka is chasing her dreams... and Alto just kind of grows distant and takes almost a 'whoop de doo' attitute towards her.

And I'm sure Alto's attitude comes from a bit of jealousy of support he maybe never got, and... with regard to the 'father figure' thing; it's kind of ironically sad that... he kind of becomes his father towards her (and... he can kind of see it) but that's getting away from Ranka.

Either way I think it's alot more reactive on her part. I mean, from her POV, the path she's taken is really pushing Alto away (and, maybe closer to Sheryl). They still talk all the time, but Alto doesn't seem to respect what she's doing. She's a singing carrot FFS, and her relationship with Alto just ends up getting more distant.

She doesn't really know what's wrong with Alto, though, or about his f'ed up family (and whatever your opinion on Ranka asking him about his past, I don't really care atm ), but her course of action, right or wrong, is to really try to involve him in her dream. To bug him for support, and finally to just pin her heart on her sleeve and tell him, more or less, "I am where I am now... because of you..." to try and bring him back.

It's an interesting idea. Let's say for the moment that it's correct.

The conversation takes place at the start of episode ten, and Ranka only starts thinking about pursuing Alto romantically around episode eleven, after her on-screen kiss. So really what she sees is a friend who seems to be getting more and more distant.

Now as you pointed out, Alto goes from being kinda cool to being a bit of an ass from episode six onwards. But when you consider that she's willing to take both Ozma and Michael to task for being similarily unresponsive, her attempts to go out of her way to regain Alto's favour once again come across as appeasement.

Originally Posted by ani_d

Maybe because she likes him? ^_^

No, silly The answer was in the next paragraph lol ^_^v

Originally Posted by ani_d

Even if you started liking a person for picking up a candy wrapper on the street so long as you ended up loving him enough to endanger your own life, it's all the same. It's genuine.

I notice that you didn't say "so long as you endangered your own life for him, then you love him," which is the statement that you would need to prove if you wanted to show that Ranka's actions on Galia-4 indicated that she had deep feelings for Alto (that is, the converse of what you said).

Instead, the starting assumption is "if you love him enough". But that was what you were trying to establish in the first place...

Originally Posted by ani_d

[...]but I don't think Sheryl grooming herself for Alto makes Sheryl's love any better than her.

Grooming is very important. Otherwise, you might end up with these.

Originally Posted by lone_wolf

@Swampstorm -
Speaking of Shakespeare, which quote from one of his plays would best suit Ranka's current situation in the latest episode(s)?

A young man's love then lies
Not truly in his heart, but in his eyes.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

So... are you saying that Ranka is more spontaneous and honest about her feelings, or are you saying that Ranka is more reserved and hides her feelings?

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It's like... After a big soccer game, you see some of the players in tears (either joy or sorrow), while others are more reserved. Do you conclude that the latter cared more about the game?

- You can conclude that the former cared.
- You can't conclude anything about the latter's feelings.
Now, if football was designed specifically to be an exposition on the players' feelings (the way a romance story usually is), then the second type of player would be ineffective.

It's important to pay attention to the distinction between feelings that are expressed to the audience, and feelings that are expressed to other characters. A character may be shy about communicating their feelings to someone else, but the audience still needs to be able to understand those feelings and see where they come from, all the same. If that doesn't happen, then what is the story communicating to us?

crisis made some insightful comments about how relationships are portrayed in a story, in the previous page. In a series which throws in a token romance, it's enough for the writers to simply tell us that the two characters in question like each other. But if this relationship is an essential part of the story, then we need shown how and why the characters relate the way that they do.

In Ranka's case, the problem is that we see her reactions instead of her feelings. So while it's clear that she doesn't want to lose Alto to Sheryl, it's not entirely clear why she's interested in him as a person to begin with.

As a case in point, episode thirteen was a brilliant opportunity for some character exposition. You've got two characters stranded together in a remote location. There's no choice for the characters but to talk and learn more about each other. The situation may be familiar (we're trapped in a storage room without the keys), but the interactions are what give the relationship depth.

Sadly, the dialogue is either spent recapping Ranka's dissociative amnesia, or explaining how Ranka feels indebted to Alto for all the times that he saved her. Having used up all of their usual conversation topics in the first five minutes, there's plenty of room for Ranka and Alto to start exploring new directions (or even to see one of them think about how to broach a new topic for discussion). Instead, it's suddenly time to head off again, just in time for the girl to get kidnapped. The writers didn't make use of the situation at all.

Don't get me wrong. The situation is cute, but the interaction is what's missing.

Romantic situations on their own are usually sufficient to get by in most of the series that we see today. But when there's another pairing in the same series that has has engaging interaction as well, it's not surprising to see people drawn to that pairing instead.

Originally Posted by stray

I don't really get it... you guys are acting like a crush can't evolve into a relationship. If the feelings are mutual, and if you can bring yourself to not be bumbling idiots around each other... why not? Obviously, like everything in life there's no guarantee it's going to work out, but hey, at least you tried.

Oh, for sure. But in a story, you need to show that transition, no?

If a crush evolves, then it stops being a crush. It's almost like saying "If two people grow to love each other, then they'll love each other."

That's your segue into "We'll wait and see," right?

[Prov1]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

I suppose I should have put a little disclaimer at the start of my last post.

We aren't dealing with real people so much as we are with the script writers' impressions of how real people act, so trying to study the psychology of the characters probably won't give you special insights into the characters' behavior.

But I think the purpose of this sort of discussion isn't to unearth some sort of hidden truth, as much as it is to explain why we may get certain "vibes" from watching that particular character act.

In Ranka's case, many people seem to describe her as dependent. So if we can understand how Ranka's actions match up with people in our own experiences who exhibit dependent traits, then we might gain some insight into why we feel that way.

It's an interesting idea. Let's say for the moment that it's correct.

The conversation takes place at the start of episode ten, and Ranka only starts thinking about pursuing Alto romantically around episode eleven, after her on-screen kiss. So really what she sees is a friend who seems to be getting more and more distant.

Now as you pointed out, Alto goes from being kinda cool to being a bit of an ass from episode six onwards. But when you consider that she's willing to take both Ozma and Michael to task for being similarily unresponsive, her attempts to go out of her way to regain Alto's favour once again come across as appeasement.

No, silly The answer was in the next paragraph lol ^_^v

I notice that you didn't say "so long as you endangered your own life for him, then you love him," which is the statement that you would need to prove if you wanted to show that Ranka's actions on Galia-4 indicated that she had deep feelings for Alto (that is, the converse of what you said).

Instead, the starting assumption is "if you love him enough". But that was what you were trying to establish in the first place...

Grooming is very important. Otherwise, you might end up with these.

A young man's love then lies
Not truly in his heart, but in his eyes.

So... are you saying that Ranka is more spontaneous and honest about her feelings, or are you saying that Ranka is more reserved and hides her feelings?

- You can conclude that the former cared.
- You can't conclude anything about the latter's feelings.
Now, if football was designed specifically to be an exposition on the players' feelings (the way a romance story usually is), then the second type of player would be ineffective.

It's important to pay attention to the distinction between feelings that are expressed to the audience, and feelings that are expressed to other characters. A character may be shy about communicating their feelings to someone else, but the audience still needs to be able to understand those feelings and see where they come from, all the same. If that doesn't happen, then what is the story communicating to us?

crisis made some insightful comments about how relationships are portrayed in a story, in the previous page. In a series which throws in a token romance, it's enough for the writers to simply tell us that the two characters in question like each other. But if this relationship is an essential part of the story, then we need shown how and why the characters relate the way that they do.

In Ranka's case, the problem is that we see her reactions instead of her feelings. So while it's clear that she doesn't want to lose Alto to Sheryl, it's not entirely clear why she's interested in him as a person to begin with.

As a case in point, episode thirteen was a brilliant opportunity for some character exposition. You've got two characters stranded together in a remote location. There's no choice for the characters but to talk and learn more about each other. The situation may be familiar (we're trapped in a storage room without the keys), but the interactions are what give the relationship depth.

Sadly, the dialogue is either spent recapping Ranka's dissociative amnesia, or explaining how Ranka feels indebted to Alto for all the times that he saved her. Having used up all of their usual conversation topics in the first five minutes, there's plenty of room for Ranka and Alto to start exploring new directions (or even to see one of them think about how to broach a new topic for discussion). Instead, it's suddenly time to head off again, just in time for the girl to get kidnapped. The writers didn't make use of the situation at all.

Don't get me wrong. The situation is cute, but the interaction is what's missing.

Romantic situations on their own are usually sufficient to get by in most of the series that we see today. But when there's another pairing in the same series that has has engaging interaction as well, it's not surprising to see people drawn to that pairing instead.

Oh, for sure. But in a story, you need to show that transition, no?

If a crush evolves, then it stops being a crush. It's almost like saying "If two people grow to love each other, then they'll love each other."

That's your segue into "We'll wait and see," right?

oh the great rennaissance man has typen

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by Prov1

oh the great rennaissance man has typen

tl;dr is much pithier.

[Prov1]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

tl;dr is much pithier.

sorry I no understand that

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Prov1

sorry I no understand that

I doubt Swampy understood you, either.

- Tak

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

tl;dr is much pithier.

O RLY?

I love your posts, btw.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

So... are you saying that Ranka is more spontaneous and honest about her feelings, or are you saying that Ranka is more reserved and hides her feelings?

I'm saying that she's more spontaneous. My impression is that not only is she bad at hiding her feelings, she doesn't even try.

- You can conclude that the former cared.
- You can't conclude anything about the latter's feelings.
Now, if football was designed specifically to be an exposition on the players' feelings (the way a romance story usually is), then the second type of player would be ineffective.

Funny answer, because I was essentially responding to Magnuskn's claim that we could conclude, from Sheryl's reserve, that her love was less shallow than Ranka's.

It's important to pay attention to the distinction between feelings that are expressed to the audience, and feelings that are expressed to other characters. A character may be shy about communicating their feelings to someone else, but the audience still needs to be able to understand those feelings and see where they come from, all the same. If that doesn't happen, then what is the story communicating to us?

crisis made some insightful comments about how relationships are portrayed in a story, in the previous page. In a series which throws in a token romance, it's enough for the writers to simply tell us that the two characters in question like each other. But if this relationship is an essential part of the story, then we need shown how and why the characters relate the way that they do.

In Ranka's case, the problem is that we see her reactions instead of her feelings. So while it's clear that she doesn't want to lose Alto to Sheryl, it's not entirely clear why she's interested in him as a person to begin with.

As a case in point, episode thirteen was a brilliant opportunity for some character exposition. You've got two characters stranded together in a remote location. There's no choice for the characters but to talk and learn more about each other. The situation may be familiar (we're trapped in a storage room without the keys), but the interactions are what give the relationship depth.

Sadly, the dialogue is either spent recapping Ranka's dissociative amnesia, or explaining how Ranka feels indebted to Alto for all the times that he saved her. Having used up all of their usual conversation topics in the first five minutes, there's plenty of room for Ranka and Alto to start exploring new directions (or even to see one of them think about how to broach a new topic for discussion). Instead, it's suddenly time to head off again, just in time for the girl to get kidnapped. The writers didn't make use of the situation at all.

Don't get me wrong. The situation is cute, but the interaction is what's missing.

Romantic situations on their own are usually sufficient to get by in most of the series that we see today. But when there's another pairing in the same series that has has engaging interaction as well, it's not surprising to see people drawn to that pairing instead.

I don't know. I feel that Alto and Ranka try harder for each other than for anybody else, and I like to see that. Now, I'm aware that it's partly dictated by circumstances - Sheryl didn't get abducted by giant bugs, and she's already a star, so what is there for her to try? But still.

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

O RLY?

Unless you drop the space, it's a tie.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Funny answer, because I was essentially responding to Magnuskn's claim that we could conclude, from Sheryl's reserve, that her love was less shallow than Ranka's.

magnuskn said that Sheryl's approach to Alto was more mature. What does that have to do with being reserved?

Ranka may be good at praising Alto, but she's terrible when it comes to actually expressing her feelings. She's much too concious of whether Alto will approve of her actions or not.

When Sheryl wants to express her feelings for Alto, she takes the initiative. She's probably the single most spontaneous character that we've had in many a season (in fact, her greatest weakness is that she generally acts on her feelings before stopping to think.)

[lone_wolf]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

A young man's love then lies
Not truly in his heart, but in his eyes.

Ah the line in "Romeo and Juliet"! The screenshot fits.


--Lone Wolf
一匹狼