AnimeSuki Forums

bladeofdarkness · 2009-09-12, 10:51

moved from teh Q&A thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

I'm just saying, we, as the audience, only see Kallen commit one "sin" and that's the landslide. And as I said before, it was at Zero's orders and the military structure holds him responsible, not Kallen. That's all I'm saying.

But further discussion of this really does need to be ported over to a more appropriate thread.

Kallen has two main morally wrongful actions during the anime

1)the whole deal in Narita and shierly's dad
2)trying to assassinate Suzaku in ep 18

in both cases its made clear that her actions are directed by someone else rather then her own will
she follows zero's orders in narita (and even he doesnt know just how destructive it would be)
and being manipulated by diethard into trying to kill suzaku (using her loyalty to zero, and implying that if Suzaku isn't dealt with...)

and both times she shows a considerable emotional reaction to it
she is very shaken up after what happens with sheirly's dad, to the point where it makes her question her actions up to that point
and she is shown to be visibly relived about not having to kill suzaku when Zero comes up with a better solution

there might be other smaller events, but those are the main things
which is minor when compared to some of the other things people in this show do

Bonzo · 2009-09-12, 12:47

Kallen could to have a big guilt feelings about her "sin", but they not used big consequences, at last she killed directly very few people on R1 and a lot of R2 when the character psychological design was more superficial.
Example, if in the script her mum was dead in some way, the more natural result was Kallen quit the war (above all after the black knight betrayal).

I don't think japan animators will never use a frame of mind like the "after iraq/afghanistan syndrome" for a anime character.

bladeofdarkness · 2009-09-12, 13:00

what do you mean by "after iraq/afghanistan syndrome"
and why would the death of her mother make her quit the war (if japan wasnt free yet) ?

Bonzo · 2009-09-12, 13:08

the after iraq/afghanistan syndrome is the psycological sickness 70% of soldiers have after that experience, refuse to return to the battle, panic, nightmares, etc...

Well, her mother was her main motivation, with the mum gone, she lose her only will, she could to keep fighting for to free the japan, but under Zero's order, instead, after the black knight betrayal, her interest to fight could be reset to zero.

youngde · 2009-09-12, 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonzo

the after iraq/afghanistan syndrome is the psycological sickness 70% of soldiers have after that experience, refuse to return to the battle, panic, nightmares, etc...

Well, her mother was her main motivation, with the mum gone, she lose her only will, she could to keep fighting for to free the japan, but under Zero's order, instead, after the black knight betrayal, her interest to fight could be reset to zero.

I'm assuming you're talking of post-traumatic stress disorder?

FerrisWheel · 2009-09-12, 13:54

I've said this before I think all the main characters,kallen included,are suffering form at least 2 counts of post tramautic stress disorder.

bladeofdarkness · 2009-09-12, 13:58

what does that mean ?
what symptoms does kallen suffer from ?

she did have one case of a "post DRAMATIC stress disorder" in the final ep
but not a PTSD case

Bonzo · 2009-09-12, 14:08

I spoke about a possible comparison with a standard and real psychological reason after those events.
The Kallen suffering real PTSD case is just in my comic, but in the anime all the characters won their personal troubles very easily, look Nina, 35.000.000 of casualities (she ordered more time to fire the fleija, then a sort of direct guilt) and she restart to live like nothing happened without consequences and that girl was designed with a very frail frame of mind.

FerrisWheel · 2009-09-12, 14:10

Well,unlike Kallen and other charcters in this anime. Nina is completely batshit insane. She proabably didn't care because the majority causalties were proabably elevens.

Rising Dragon · 2009-09-12, 14:13

Actually she's not anymore. The FLEIJA gave Nina an epiphany and ever since she's worked on a way of stopping a FLEIJA device.

Its just that most people stopped caring about her at that point.

Revolutionist · 2009-09-12, 14:14

Do you guys really think because Zero ordered her to trigger the landslide, it somehow absolves Kallen of all the innocent people it killed? Give me a break!

A soldier who commits war crimes because he was ordered to by his superior is just as accountable as the officer who ordered it. And besides, Kallen was in a terrorist organization that planned to use poison gas on Britannians.

Rising Dragon · 2009-09-12, 14:16

We don't, actually. Its just the only thing that we can see as something "bad". And we've noted that chain of command makes sure she can't be held responsible (which we see in the anime, as both Shirley and Lelouch consider Lelouch to be responsible for his death), and because no one could've known what would've happened, so we can't hate her for it.

bladeofdarkness · 2009-09-12, 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

A soldier who commits war crimes because he was ordered to by his superior is just as accountable as the officer who ordered it. And besides, Kallen was in a terrorist organization that planned to use poison gas on Britannians.

she had no way to know just how big the landslide would have been
which doesnt cancel her part, but reduces it

we dont know what the target of the gas would have been
and kallen's reaction when nagata suggests using it where it would hurt civilians implies that the intended target wouldnt have been a civilian one

and they STOLE the gas from britannia
what did they think britannia would have done with it ?

Bonzo · 2009-09-12, 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

We don't, actually. Its just the only thing that we can see as something "bad". And we've noted that chain of command makes sure she can't be held responsible (which we see in the anime, as both Shirley and Lelouch consider Lelouch to be responsible for his death), and because no one could've known what would've happened, so we can't hate her for it.

But she could hate herself like here:

http://sabrinaonline.altervista.org/...n25.20enga.jpg

However, this is the second or third time we return to that argument?

Rising Dragon · 2009-09-12, 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonzo

But she could hate herself like here:

http://sabrinaonline.altervista.org/...n25.20enga.jpg

However, this is the second or third time we return to that argument?

Well, yeah, but really, she's the only one who can hold herself accountable for what she did.

Bonzo · 2009-09-12, 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Well, yeah, but really, she's the only one who can hold herself accountable for what she did.

This is true, in R2R is her mum's farewell-letter the big hammering for her conscience.
Her mum understood Kallen's choices, but she couldn't to accept the ways used by the daughter.
War or not, a parent can't accept her/his child killed people, it's a question of humanity.

Instead, in the anime, considering Kallen's mum brain conditions, that side wasn't a problem.

morbosfist · 2009-09-12, 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Do you guys really think because Zero ordered her to trigger the landslide, it somehow absolves Kallen of all the innocent people it killed? Give me a break!

A soldier who commits war crimes because he was ordered to by his superior is just as accountable as the officer who ordered it. And besides, Kallen was in a terrorist organization that planned to use poison gas on Britannians.

There's a difference between knowingly commuting a war crime and an accident. They didn't know that landslide would strike the town. Plus mostly soldiers were killed anyway.

As for the gas, Kallen was against using it in a massacre. Whatever they were going to do with it, it wasn't for just killing Britannians.

Revolutionist · 2009-09-12, 14:57

Oh really? What would terrorists do with poison gas?

Even though the Black Knights are shown to be good because Lelouch tries to instill a sense of justice in them doesn't make them a righteous organization. Even if they're called knights they're still terrorists because of the tactics and their methods.

Lloyd pointed out the irony of terrorists calling themselves knights. And tbh, their actions didn't help their cause to appear as champions of justice. In this sense Lelouch is a hypocrite, but can't be blamed because of what he has to work with. Ougi and the Japanese resistance are just not suited to anything more than cowardly tactics, in other word terrorism.

Britannia wasn't going to use poison gas on elevens because they cared about their slave labor. So it's not like Naoto's cell stole it to keep the Britannians from using it on Elevens, they most likely stole it thinking they could use it in a plot against the government, which would ultimately cause innocent people to die.

FerrisWheel · 2009-09-12, 15:01

The series is shown with a heavy lelouch bias obviously,hence because lelouch works with the black knights,,they are seen as good and Britannia the enemy. I cosign with Revolutionist.

Bonzo · 2009-09-12, 17:16

However, in the reality if for a chance will happen a similar event during a coup d'etat...at last who has a guilt he/she will pay, at despite of their alliance.

"Justice is the same for everybody"

That sort of ending like "everybody is happy because everybody forgot what they done" is very unnatural by the point of view of realism.

The character with the more "clean" conscience is Ougi, he was hypocrite, coward and nàive, but he never hurt somebody.

2009-09-12, 13:00	Link #21203
bladeofdarkness Um-Shmum Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts Age: 39	what do you mean by "after iraq/afghanistan syndrome" and why would the death of her mother make her quit the war (if japan wasnt free yet) ? __________________

2009-09-12, 13:58	Link #21207
bladeofdarkness Um-Shmum Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts Age: 39	what does that mean ? what symptoms does kallen suffer from ? she did have one case of a "post DRAMATIC stress disorder" in the final ep but not a PTSD case __________________

2009-09-12, 14:13	Link #21210
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	Actually she's not anymore. The FLEIJA gave Nina an epiphany and ever since she's worked on a way of stopping a FLEIJA device. Its just that most people stopped caring about her at that point. __________________

2009-09-12, 14:14	Link #21211
Revolutionist Puppet Master Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Behind You	Do you guys really think because Zero ordered her to trigger the landslide, it somehow absolves Kallen of all the innocent people it killed? Give me a break! A soldier who commits war crimes because he was ordered to by his superior is just as accountable as the officer who ordered it. And besides, Kallen was in a terrorist organization that planned to use poison gas on Britannians. __________________ I cannot give you back your homes, or restore your dead to life, but perhaps I can give you justice, in the name of our King. ~ Ned Stark

2009-09-12, 14:16	Link #21212
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	We don't, actually. Its just the only thing that we can see as something "bad". And we've noted that chain of command makes sure she can't be held responsible (which we see in the anime, as both Shirley and Lelouch consider Lelouch to be responsible for his death), and because no one could've known what would've happened, so we can't hate her for it. __________________

2009-09-12, 12:47	Link #21202
Bonzo I change anime endings. Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Italy Age: 46	Kallen could to have a big guilt feelings about her "sin", but they not used big consequences, at last she killed directly very few people on R1 and a lot of R2 when the character psychological design was more superficial. Example, if in the script her mum was dead in some way, the more natural result was Kallen quit the war (above all after the black knight betrayal). I don't think japan animators will never use a frame of mind like the "after iraq/afghanistan syndrome" for a anime character.

2009-09-12, 13:08	Link #21204
Bonzo I change anime endings. Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Italy Age: 46	the after iraq/afghanistan syndrome is the psycological sickness 70% of soldiers have after that experience, refuse to return to the battle, panic, nightmares, etc... Well, her mother was her main motivation, with the mum gone, she lose her only will, she could to keep fighting for to free the japan, but under Zero's order, instead, after the black knight betrayal, her interest to fight could be reset to zero.

2009-09-12, 13:54	Link #21206
FerrisWheel Earl of Cookies Author Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Lala Land Age: 32	I've said this before I think all the main characters,kallen included,are suffering form at least 2 counts of post tramautic stress disorder.

2009-09-12, 14:08	Link #21208
Bonzo I change anime endings. Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Italy Age: 46	I spoke about a possible comparison with a standard and real psychological reason after those events. The Kallen suffering real PTSD case is just in my comic, but in the anime all the characters won their personal troubles very easily, look Nina, 35.000.000 of casualities (she ordered more time to fire the fleija, then a sort of direct guilt) and she restart to live like nothing happened without consequences and that girl was designed with a very frail frame of mind.

2009-09-12, 14:10	Link #21209
FerrisWheel Earl of Cookies Author Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Lala Land Age: 32	Well,unlike Kallen and other charcters in this anime. Nina is completely batshit insane. She proabably didn't care because the majority causalties were proabably elevens.

2009-09-12, 14:57	Link #21218
Revolutionist Puppet Master Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Behind You	Oh really? What would terrorists do with poison gas? Even though the Black Knights are shown to be good because Lelouch tries to instill a sense of justice in them doesn't make them a righteous organization. Even if they're called knights they're still terrorists because of the tactics and their methods. Lloyd pointed out the irony of terrorists calling themselves knights. And tbh, their actions didn't help their cause to appear as champions of justice. In this sense Lelouch is a hypocrite, but can't be blamed because of what he has to work with. Ougi and the Japanese resistance are just not suited to anything more than cowardly tactics, in other word terrorism. Britannia wasn't going to use poison gas on elevens because they cared about their slave labor. So it's not like Naoto's cell stole it to keep the Britannians from using it on Elevens, they most likely stole it thinking they could use it in a plot against the government, which would ultimately cause innocent people to die. __________________ I cannot give you back your homes, or restore your dead to life, but perhaps I can give you justice, in the name of our King. ~ Ned Stark

2009-09-12, 15:01	Link #21219
FerrisWheel Earl of Cookies Author Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Lala Land Age: 32	The series is shown with a heavy lelouch bias obviously,hence because lelouch works with the black knights,,they are seen as good and Britannia the enemy. I cosign with Revolutionist.

2009-09-12, 17:16	Link #21220
Bonzo I change anime endings. Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Italy Age: 46	However, in the reality if for a chance will happen a similar event during a coup d'etat...at last who has a guilt he/she will pay, at despite of their alliance. "Justice is the same for everybody" That sort of ending like "everybody is happy because everybody forgot what they done" is very unnatural by the point of view of realism. The character with the more "clean" conscience is Ougi, he was hypocrite, coward and nàive, but he never hurt somebody.