2010-10-12, 11:45 | Link #1781 | ||
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2010-10-12, 20:33 | Link #1782 |
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The thing is that Rolo is a trained assassin, and his Geass is the perfect tool for that end. Which brings up the only possible conclusion: while Shirley was paralyzed, Rolo ran up to her, took her gun holding hand, pointing the gun towards her midsection, and fired, thus barely if at all getting his own hands on the gun.
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2010-10-12, 20:41 | Link #1783 | |
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2010-10-12, 21:21 | Link #1784 | |
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At least I think that's how it works. |
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2010-10-13, 00:58 | Link #1786 |
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According to the "Fingerprinting Air" page on TV Tropes, even if Rolo didn't take precautions like making the gun fire from Shirley's hand, it still isn't a guarantee that any useable prints could be lifted from the weapon, and even then they would be completely useless without Rolo's own actual prints being on a file that regular crime labs could access. This doesn't seem likely, given Rolo's status as a covert assassin who probably doesn't legally exist (his Lamperouge identity notwithstanding).
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2010-10-13, 08:40 | Link #1787 | |
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2010-10-13, 14:31 | Link #1788 | |
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And whatever the case, even if there was a good reason for them declaring it a suicide, the show obviously didn't present it. The way they presented it makes the forensics team look pretty incompetent. |
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2010-10-13, 15:58 | Link #1789 |
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Its probably what people said earlier, about the entire case being hidden by higher up Britannians, simply because it was involved with Jerimiah's appearance in the mall, and any victims had to be concealed, or classified as a suicide case to cover it up as much as possible.
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2010-10-13, 16:20 | Link #1790 | |
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And what difference does it make anyway? Whether people believe she committed suicide or was murdered it still looks suspicious that it happened inside the mall. Not to mention she was a happy girl that showed no signs of suicidal tendencies. |
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2010-10-13, 20:25 | Link #1791 | ||
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As for Jeremiah, remember that he had been framed as a traitor in the Orange Incident and was believed to have died in Narita. Assuming anyone recognized him (due to the faceplate) and actually believed it was him, they could just assume that the Orange allegations were true, as Gino did over Tokyo, and that Jeremiah was with the terrorists. One other theory might be that Lelouch had enough sense about him as he left the mall to Geass some policemen to find Shirley's body and alter the crime scene enough to better make it look like a suicide, as I imagine that Britannian authorities would have all but had classes titled "Evidence Tampering 101." Still, as Nobodyman9 said, whatever the reasons were, the show did a poor job of presenting it to us. |
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2010-10-13, 20:48 | Link #1792 |
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(Written approximately 8 hours ago; excuse me if the point has pretty much already been made.)
Not so much the fingerprints, but 1) the unusual location for a bullet for a suicide, and 2) Lelouch's (or rather, some other person's) easily detectable presence around her body, would make a "it was suicide" conclusion from authorities about Shirley's death extremely questionable. Far from being 'considerate' enough to instigate a cover up, I don't even believe Lelouch went so far as to report her death in the first place, so the whole 'suicide' thing is definitely a plot hole in my opinion, and yet I can't really take that to mean that Shirley's death wasn't planned from the beginning. At the very least, what we do know is that Zero Re:quiem was planned from the beginning, and insofar that both Shirley's character and death dovetail so nicely with the themes of that conclusion, I can see now that if not planned, Shirley's death was certainly probably inevitable. For what it is, and Code Geass as a whole, I am actually pretty okay with Shirley's death and Zero Re:quiem in terms of them as a demonstration of her impact on Lelouch's character. The key point of my own disappointment with Shirley's death is in terms of what it meant for narrative potential. Shirley was always an inspiring character for me, even moreso when I projected myself upon Lelouch, so when she died for me it was essentially the ruination of any theme of hope in the story. Idealistic 'world peace' ending aside, I still see this as essentially true--Lelouch died deservedly a monster at the 'barely lived life yet' age of 18. Code Geass is, on a personal level for me, a depressing story. That's why I do hold a level of disappointment about Shirley's death; however, nonetheless I also want to say that I still have a fair degree of respect for the story Okouchi and Taniguchi succeeded in conveying. lol, now that I actually think of it--in terms of 'respecting a story' I mean--there's a surprising amount of similarity between Code Geass and my more recent (though actually a 2004 production) favourite anime, Kannazuki no Miko. Shounen tragedy, ridiculous plot twists, complete abandonment of any concept of rational storytelling wrapped around a powerfully dense and expressive emotional core--it's even got the terrible mecha, lol. Guess I haven't really moved on that much after all. |
2010-10-13, 21:23 | Link #1793 |
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I agree with you Sol, that normally a person who decides to suicide shoots themselves in the head not the abdomen. But even if Lelouch had been questioned he could have said that Shirley had tried to Suicide earlier but him and Suzaku stopped her.
Why didn't Suzaku ever do anything within the laws to punish Lelouch if thought it was him who killed Shirley. |
2010-10-13, 21:26 | Link #1794 | |
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2010-10-13, 22:34 | Link #1795 | |
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- Suzaku gets right on his ass, to which effect he starts interrogating Kallen. (Kallen gives him his just desserts.) - He manages to stop his father from taking C. C.'s code, but C. C. ends up sealing her code, and ends up back in her pre-geass acceptance state, leaving him even more isolated during the next few episodes. - Right when his international body, the UFN starts to get off the ground, his father rickrolls him. - With no one else to turn to for help with protecting Nunnally, he seeks out Suzaku's help. He lies for the sake of not appearing to care for personal pride. Suzaku, infuriated still for a moment, agrees to help after a bit, but Schneizel comes in and has Lelouch arrested, making the meeting look like a setup on Suzaku's part. Lelouch does escape and initiates the battle for Tokyo, now infuriated beyond belief towards him. Suzaku, on the goading of Kanon, Schneizel and Nina, goes in there with a nuclear weapon. Lelouch doesn't buy it, given the earlier incident. Kallen threatens to kill Suzaku, who refuses to escape, and as a result, his Geass takes over and fires FLEIJA, nuking the Tokyo settlement and millions with it, one of those people apparently being Nunnally. - Needless to say, Lelouch is dumbstruck over what just happened. Schneizel takes advantage of this moment and arranges a meeting with the Black Knights. Based on his recordings of the meeting, he reveals to them that Zero is his own brother, a (one time) Britannian prince, who happens to have mind control. He also gives an account of what happened at the SAZ, using a Quote Mine no less from said meeting between Lelouch and Suzaku, that Lelouch gave the order to Euphemia on purpose, of course omitting the part where Suzaku knows Lelouch is lying. Of course, the BKs are cynical regarding these statements (though Chiba and Tohdoh have their own misgivings) until Ohgi and Villetta come in and suggest that it is all true, with nothing more than a few suggestions of who Lelouch is suspected of geassing. Villetta is especially suspect, since she likely knew more about it as leader of the intelligence unit watching over Lelouch, let alone the simple fact that she was a Britannian agent. And then of course Kanon says Lelouch knew but informed no one about FLEIJA, even though he and Schneizel intentionally made him distrustful of Suzaku, thereby setting him up. Ohgi of course agrees to turn over Lelouch in exchange for Japan, and then sends Kallen to pick up Lelouch. Kallen's appearance actually gives Lelouch one grain of Heroic Resolve. Unfortunately, what follows is the biggest Kangaroo Court scenario, to the point where Lelouch has no way to escape make his time, and must lie to save Kallen. He's only saved because of Rolo. What follows is Lelouch completely passing the Despair Event Horizon, to which effect he tells Rivalz, who calls to see if he's in one piece, that he won't get to keep the promise of seeing fireworks. It is only now that he starts geassing random soldiers into complete obedience, as he plans to go out taking down his father. Needless to say, when that doesn't work out as intended (he only erases his parents and the Ragnarok Junction), he cooks up the Zero Requiem as one last ditch attempt. tl;dr version: Zero Requiem is a result of him going off the deep end after one too many misfortunate events, even if not all of them were out of his hands. He was not a Complete Monster, as that would require him to, in full sanity and cognizance, abandon his morals and ethics. No; he was a Woobie Destroyer of Worlds, as his acts were driven by an insanity wrought by a lifetime of pain. And if he deserved to die, then so did the likes of Cornelia and Villetta. Aggravatingly of course, the latter along with fellow Swiss Messenger Ohgi got the happiest ending. Needless to say, the ending was a majorly contrived piece of "What the Fuck?!?!?!?!?!?!". |
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2010-10-13, 23:26 | Link #1797 | |
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2010-10-14, 03:11 | Link #1798 | |
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As for your other comments, this is again a matter of opinion here, but lemme explain why I felt Lelouch was a 'monster' and why he deserved to die. It's not really an issue of guilt, sin, or incompetence. At the end of season 1, Suzaku described Lelouch as a person betrayed by the world, and who as a result would betray the world in return too. What characterizes Lelouch for me is not his brilliance, but his despair and his faithlessness. Throughout the series, Lelouch could not help himself from causing destruction because, at varying critical points in the story, he simply could no longer believe in the world--from the Black Rebellion in the wake of the death of Euphie, to his cursing of Suzaku which found expression in the destruction of Tokyo. Lelouch's faithlessness--in his country; in his allies; in his friends, family (fake or real) or parents; to make a sum of it, his lack of faith in the entire 'world'--is what lead him along a path of destructionso terrible that, when he was finally given a reality check by his father in the World of C, he had no further choice as a judge of himself except to give his own life away. Lelouch was a 'monster' because, as I believe he even recognized himself, he was an embodiment of the destruction of faith, the eternally betrayed and betraying; when he finally turned from destruction of the world as he gained some measure of faith in humanity, it was only a simple matter for his faithlessness to transfer over to the despair and destruction of himself. Someone so corrupted by the cruelties of fate certainly had no place in the world. This is the reason why Lelouch, and Lelouch alone, was the one who deserved to die. It is pretty easy to just call Code Geass a clusterfuck, and I think this is probably what even most fans of the series do. However, if you can just step away from your own moral judgements of what is and isn't deserving, and try to view the series as a product of a particular idea the creators were trying to express, I think it is a narratively solid piece of work. The reason Lelouch as a character appeals so much to so many people is because cynicism and despair are the sort of feelings which mire millions if not billions of people in daily life. Lelouch appeared as a hero who embraced that and, by the sheer brilliance of his natural ability, usually succeeded in 'punishing' the objects of his or their faithlessness. I think the message Taniguchi and Okouchi were trying to express, though, with such an ending where Lelouch died while fairly every other 'guilty' party survived, is that it really isn't about solely seeing the bad in people and trying to tear everything down. Life and people move forward by believing in each other and the basic goodness of the world. This is corny shounen or even shoujo shit for sure, but you know, I still think it's basically something people should try to take from it. It's certainly a lot more of a satisfying conclusion in general than angrily writing it all off as a clusterfuck and going around using it as one more example of how everything is basically terrible. Last edited by Sol Falling; 2010-10-14 at 03:23. |
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2010-10-14, 04:05 | Link #1799 | |
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And again, to suggest that Lelouch and Lelouch alone deserved to die, while the likes of Villetta and Cornelia didn't is just plain fucking bullshit, and only affirms that the CG-verse is a Crapsack World with No Therapists. To paraphrase one of Lelouch's lines: he wasn't the one at fault, they were. |
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2010-10-14, 04:47 | Link #1800 | |||
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I'll just say I agree with a lot of what Sol Falling has already written. What I disagree with is a matter of specifics, to be sure, but even those are still subject to a similar line of interpretation in the grand scheme of things (in other words, lines of thought that rely on themes and other ideas as opposed to seeking audience satisfaction or realism).
In addition, I would stress this shouldn't be a matter of trying to push just one of our specific interpretations when we're dealing with a show that involves so many different elements and allows for different ways to look at them. In many cases we should probably speak of multiple causes and effects, not just of a single line of thought that excludes all other observations. It's entirely possible to focus on criticisms and nitpicks, valid or otherwise, but that shouldn't prevent other levels of analysis from existing. Quote:
What's more, and also to bring this back into the actual topic of this thread, Lelouch really would have needed the aid of someone like Shirley (or perhaps the long dead Euphemia and, I guess, pre-FLEIJA Suzaku) who had a positive personal influence on him in order to find a constructive form of atonement that did not lead down a dark path. Quote:
In the cynical world of reality, it often is. In a story where there was a certain amount of value assigned to idealism and hope -represented by, among others, Shirley herself- that isn't necessarily the case. It's a peace people can and -according to Lelouch- will struggle to protect. And if they fail in the short term, they'll keep seeking it in the long term. There are movements towards war and movements towards peace, not just one or the other. Quote:
But the question shouldn't be one of whether every single person in the story deserved to die or not, in the eyes of the audience. Not all those who "deserve" to die end up dying, not in this story and certainly not in reality. Isn't that also "fucking bullshit" or what? Absolutely senseless deaths and senseless survivals happen all the time in this world. What's more, the people who are guilty of the same crimes aren't judged equally. Sometimes I wish I could stand up and run away from the literal train wreck that life and the history of the world can seem, in their worst moments, but...that's a bit difficult. The most you can hope to say, in a fictional story, is that some deaths and some survivals carry meaning...but even then, it doesn't have to follow any universal rule of absolute consistency or moral satisfaction. You can have an unfair ending, like the ending of Code Geass is in several ways, without making it meaningless. You can call it bad storytelling, but I would find that more than a bit funny...in light of the fact reality can also be unfair, immoral and inconsistent. What horrible writers and directors must rule this universe. I guess that's all far too meta, but in any case...let's leave it at that for now. Despite not liking the way Shirley was treated by the show, on a personal level, and accepting that more could have been done, intellectually, with her character even if the same fate was likely to happen...I think it's possible to reconstruct what was the intended purpose of her death and the impact it had on Lelouch, like it has already been done above by Sol and others. Even if you argue it wasn't until Nunnally's "death" that Lelouch really lost it, Shirley's murder had both a direct and indirect role in the series of events that led up to the ultimate conclusion. What's more, I recall there was more of an emphasis on her in the Zero Requiem Special Edition compilation than on other characters. Last edited by Xander; 2010-10-14 at 05:17. |
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