To Aru Majutsu no Index LN - New Testament Volume 22 Discussion / Poll

[Kuroageha]

Originally Posted by dniv

All jokes aside, I don't understand why y'all are pissed at Index. She didn't actually bite him. I see it as her going through the motions and her getting mad at him. Plus, I'm pretty sure that was her being sympathetic to him in her own way. It'd be a lot worse if she treated him like someone that had to be pitied just because he was currently worse for wear. I sort of doubt he wants that. He wants to jump into the center of things again after all. He doesn't need to be coddled. I'm not going to say that Misaki and Misaka's approaches were wrong, but neither is hers. Yeah, the cockblock is annoying, I guess, but that doesn't mean that her reaction was inappropriate. Hours had passed and he should have already been fine by then. It's not like she hasn't seen him go through sh*t before. It's not like she saw him get curbstomped herself so her reaction is perfectly valid given that's how she always reacts. It'd be weirder or OOC if she reacted differently.

Do you think people with tight bias goggles would care be it Index or Hamazura?


Regardings Rikou's importance you might have missed that AC's agent sent to retrieve her also said that it was thanks to WW2 that the factors stopping her from following the path to become the 'Individual Academy'
were overcame.
Another early sign happened during OT15 when Kakine told she tried to affect him but wasn't successful because she collapsed due to the drugs taking a toll on her body.

[Marina2]

Hasn't Takitsubo been using her ability in passive way during NT? She doesn't require the crystal to usr her ability anymore.

She can sense the direction of AIM and can messs with other espers AIM field without the crystal.(in Kakine's Beetles arc and Agitate Halation arc for example.) She also have headache from magic wave which probably mean her sensing/reading power are always working.

[Kuroageha]

Originally Posted by Marina2

Hasn't Takitsubo been using her ability in passive way during NT? She doesn't require the crystal to usr her ability anymore.

She can sense the direction of AIM and can messs with other espers AIM field without the crystal.(in Kakine's Beetles arc and Agitate Halation arc for example.) She also have headache from magic wave which probably mean her sensing/reading power are always working.

She's been tracking Shiage despite him being a level 0 in the middle of AC.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by Kuroageha

Do you think people with tight bias goggles would care be it Index or Hamazura?


Regardings Rikou's importance you might have missed that AC's agent sent to retrieve her also said that it was thanks to WW2 that the factors stopping her from following the path to become the 'Individual Academy'
were overcame.
Another early sign happened during OT15 when Kakine told she tried to affect him but wasn't successful because she collapsed due to the drugs taking a toll on her body.

Ah yeah, thanks for the added evidence. I knew there was more, but wasn't sure where to find it.

And I agree about Index. Honestly, I used to not like her when I'd just seen the anime before reading the first few volumes of OT and realizing that she was just like that in the anime. Hamazura is more fair to hate on since I also was sorta annoyed with him until chapter 2 and then with chapter 3 where he's started making more and more sense.

[Kuroageha]

Judging the parts before the whole as well as judging the whole without the parts is also unfair *looks at the poll*

Ahem, Rikou's role will likely take the spotlight now tha Academy City is no longer and that might bring back those annoying individuals that are the Kihara clan unless for some reason all died within AC unable to leave... Yeah no.

[dniv]

It's been updated through part 16 of chapter 3!

[WiliamZ0]

Originally Posted by dniv

It's been updated through part 16 of chapter 3!

WAIT!!! WTF?!!! So Misaki the one that prevent Im,agine Breaker to return to Kamijou Touma all this time?!

It actually worked?! By preserving the right hand, the right hand can't return to Kamijou?!!!

And WTF?!! This miracle!!! Kamijou might need Othinus help to remember Misaki presence, but his feeling for her is real :3 That's why he can move from 99% gap to 100% saving the girl.

I knew it the blonde's have the answer. THE BLONDE~!!

[Requiem-x]

About Rikou, it's been no secret for a while now she has lots of potential inside of her, and it's not like she's magic god-tier now, or at least I hope so. If she's going t mess with Coronzon's plan, it will probably be in a more subtle way, like how she influenced beetle 5 back then.

Meanwhile, Shiage, what the hell are you doing?

I love that Noukan is also in the llustration. And give it up, Lilith, no one wants to see a baby exploding in front of them.

...did any of us ask where Touma's hand physically went? Anyways, oh, Misaki, you really should know better by now And there's a big smile on my face as I type that. Hell of a powerful illustration if you have the context for it, too.

Originally Posted by WiliamZ0

WAIT!!! WTF?!!! So Misaki the one that prevent Im,agine Breaker to return to Kamijou Touma all this time?!

It actually worked?! By preserving the right hand, the right hand can't return to Kamijou?!!!

To be fair, no one had tried this method before.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by WiliamZ0

WAIT!!! WTF?!!! So Misaki the one that prevent Im,agine Breaker to return to Kamijou Touma all this time?!

It actually worked?! By preserving the right hand, the right hand can't return to Kamijou?!!!

And WTF?!! This miracle!!! Kamijou might need Othinus help to remember Misaki presence, but his feeling for her is real :3 That's why he can move from 99% gap to 100% saving the girl.

I knew it the blonde's have the answer. THE BLONDE~!!

YES THAT WAS AMAZING. Now I'm waiting for future arcs where his hand gets stolen by the villains.

Also, Misaki is best girl as always. She stole the spotlight this time ahahaha. (She will now be the one and only girl he's saved WITHOUT using his right hand. )

I wonder why the hand worked this time though. Really amazing chapter all around. Now just the between the lines, chapter 4, and the epilogue are left. I wonder when we're getting them.

Also, I will say now once again I'm not really sure I understand what's going through Hamazura's mind, but I have to say that it sure is interesting.

This whole chapter was 11/10. Can't wait for the rest!

Also, I got the best illustration first hehehehehe!

[Daft]

That was HYPE. I was surprised that Lilith mentioned that the current generation of Imagine Breaker only affects the occult so it can't be used to defeat Coronzon. As in, other IB's were capable of destroying natural things as well?? Would that be full powered IB without the invisible thing weakening it?

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Keila

I mean, just because he lives in AC doesn't necessarily mean he's been influenced/modified by the curriculum, maybe Touma hasn't been fed the right drugs or had people poking around his brain (and quite frankly, with the Parameter List they knew well in advance which people would warrant investment or not, hence Hamazura being level 0 instead of level 1 or higher).

Well no. Those who got assigned a level all went through at least the basic curriculum.
Even a lv.0
As far as I know. Even Touma went through the basics.

Originally Posted by Daft

That was HYPE. I was surprised that Lilith mentioned that the current generation of Imagine Breaker only affects the occult so it can't be used to defeat Coronzon. As in, other IB's were capable of destroying natural things as well?? Would that be full powered IB without the invisible thing weakening it?

No, IB can't harm Choronzon is because, like Othinus has said. After descending on to the surface of the 4 Realms, Choronzon is no longer something supernatural, but but an actual material entity that follows the law of physic. In other words IB no longer works.
This is the true terror of Choronzo, the ability to move up and down the ten Sephira of the Sephiroth, and utilize all their property at will.


Speaking of which, I wonder how the layer of the phases is related to the structure of the Sephiroth.
The current material word, which is the lowest realm of the Sephiroth is referred to as the surface. Which make sense, as it is the top most layer of the phases.
While Choronzon is capable of impacting the basic world because the basic world is the bottom most layer, which correlate with the Abyss, the bottom later of the Sephiroth the divided the top three Sephira and Da'ath from the rest.
And is the basic world all science and no super natural? Aiwass and Choronzon originated from the basic world already raised questions.
Now that even the basic world can be influenced through the analogy with Sephiroth has made it even more questionable.

Or could we take a wholestic approach? Perhaps it is not the basic world is magical, but because arrangement of the phases had accumulated into the form of Sephiroth. The entire structural design of worldly phase has adopted to a central magic property that is tree of life, regardless each individual phases is magical or not.

Now here are the question. In this arrangement, what will be the Keter? And what may be the Da'ath?

[dniv]

Originally Posted by shmaster

No, IB can't harm Choronzon is because, like Othinus has said. After descending on to the surface of the 4 Realms, Choronzon is no longer something supernatural, but but an actual material entity that follows the law of physic. In other words IB no longer works.
This is the true terror of Choronzon, the ability to move up and down the ten Sephira of the Sephiroth, and utilize all their property at will.

Just imagine that older versions of IB could have been magical artifacts or weapons. You can easily imagine those sorts of things working against physical human bodies.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by dniv

Just imagine that older versions of IB could have been magical artifacts or weapons. You can easily imagine those sorts of things working against physical human bodies.

That will be contradictory. The host of IB can't be magical.
But that hardly matters though.
There is no way to fight the Flaming Sword that's properly materialized in Maluke of Assiah.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by shmaster

That will be contradictory. The host of IB can't be magical.
But that hardly matters though.
There is no way to fight the Flaming Sword that's properly materialized in Malduke of Assiah.

No it's been said that previous incarnations of IB were magical artifacts and the like. That's in the text. Also, I couldn't wait any longer, I just ordered NT 21 and 22 on Amazon.JP because too good.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by dniv

No it's been said that previous incarnations of IB were magical artifacts and the like. That's in the text. Also, I couldn't wait any longer, I just ordered NT 21 and 22 on Amazon.JP because too good.

When Ollerus talked about the older incarnations?
I am pretty sure he didn't mention them as magical.

[WiliamZ0]

Originally Posted by dniv

No it's been said that previous incarnations of IB were magical artifacts and the like. That's in the text. Also, I couldn't wait any longer, I just ordered NT 21 and 22 on Amazon.JP because too good.

I agree if I not wrong this what Coronzon said
“Imagine Breaker has wandered the edges of history as a reference point for the world. It has existed in a variety of forms: people, objects, places, and buildings. But why does it break? If it merely pointed to an uncorrupted world, it would have a number of different reactions, such as deflecting, diverting, and slipping through. And yet it chooses to destroy the supernatural things it cannot accept. That is my point here. In its natural state, the world bares its fangs against all things. If the conditions are right, death is the natural fate for all people and creatures. That which cannot be broken down must be rewritten into that which can, even if that means smashing it to pieces. That is the perfectly natural cycle you find in this world.”


But this statement also puzzle me. Considering it also part of Coronzon that said it
“I am not about to pretend I know exactly how it works,” said the hair. “After all, that thing will create a replacement on its own if it is simply cut off.”

“…?”

“Understanding it from the single viewpoint of science is not possible, but the reverse is also true. There may be a piece of the puzzle I cannot see. At any rate, this may have been the result of some misguided regrets, but it was fortunate you kept it cooled.”

Back then, Aleister had taken control of Mikoto’s A.A.A. and chopped off the boy’s right arm with a chainsaw because the silver girl assumed it would get in the way of her treatment. Everyone had been focused on whether or not the boy would survive, but what had happened to the severed arm afterwards?

Hadn’t it landed in the center of Shokuhou Misaki’s ample chest where she held it in her arms?

“I had thought it was odd that Imagine Breaker was not returning to its original owner. But even this is only a temporary deception. It will eventually return to him. No matter how much you try to keep it hidden.”


So what actually IB is? If even Demon considered it as a puzzle.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by WiliamZ0

I agree if I not wrong this what Coronzon said
“Imagine Breaker has wandered the edges of history as a reference point for the world. It has existed in a variety of forms: people, objects, places, and buildings. But why does it break? If it merely pointed to an uncorrupted world, it would have a number of different reactions, such as deflecting, diverting, and slipping through. And yet it chooses to destroy the supernatural things it cannot accept. That is my point here. In its natural state, the world bares its fangs against all things. If the conditions are right, death is the natural fate for all people and creatures. That which cannot be broken down must be rewritten into that which can, even if that means smashing it to pieces. That is the perfectly natural cycle you find in this world.”


But this statement also puzzle me. Considering it also part of Coronzon that said it
“I am not about to pretend I know exactly how it works,” said the hair. “After all, that thing will create a replacement on its own if it is simply cut off.”

“…?”

“Understanding it from the single viewpoint of science is not possible, but the reverse is also true. There may be a piece of the puzzle I cannot see. At any rate, this may have been the result of some misguided regrets, but it was fortunate you kept it cooled.”

Back then, Aleister had taken control of Mikoto’s A.A.A. and chopped off the boy’s right arm with a chainsaw because the silver girl assumed it would get in the way of her treatment. Everyone had been focused on whether or not the boy would survive, but what had happened to the severed arm afterwards?

Hadn’t it landed in the center of Shokuhou Misaki’s ample chest where she held it in her arms?

“I had thought it was odd that Imagine Breaker was not returning to its original owner. But even this is only a temporary deception. It will eventually return to him. No matter how much you try to keep it hidden.”


So what actually IB is? If even Demon considered it as a puzzle.

Lol very interesting. I honestly wondered about that too. My opinion right now is that IB is something beyond just those systems... somehow. I have no clue, who am I kidding. Though, it sounds like maybe Aiwass actually knows more than Choronzon here ... and maybe Aiwass is actually way higher up the power tier than we thought ... though it's hard to say because of what the High Priest said about Aleister's experiments...

Also, @shmaster, it seems unlikely it'd just be a normal weapon, lol. Though I guess I'm not sure if Ollerus ever said it was a magical weapon. But both Choronzon and Ollerus have referenced it having different forms over time. You could be right, but I'm honestly not sure.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by WiliamZ0

I agree if I not wrong this what Coronzon said
“Imagine Breaker has wandered the edges of history as a reference point for the world. It has existed in a variety of forms: people, objects, places, and buildings. But why does it break? If it merely pointed to an uncorrupted world, it would have a number of different reactions, such as deflecting, diverting, and slipping through. And yet it chooses to destroy the supernatural things it cannot accept. That is my point here. In its natural state, the world bares its fangs against all things. If the conditions are right, death is the natural fate for all people and creatures. That which cannot be broken down must be rewritten into that which can, even if that means smashing it to pieces. That is the perfectly natural cycle you find in this world.”


But this statement also puzzle me. Considering it also part of Coronzon that said it
“I am not about to pretend I know exactly how it works,” said the hair. “After all, that thing will create a replacement on its own if it is simply cut off.”

“…?”

“Understanding it from the single viewpoint of science is not possible, but the reverse is also true. There may be a piece of the puzzle I cannot see. At any rate, this may have been the result of some misguided regrets, but it was fortunate you kept it cooled.”

Back then, Aleister had taken control of Mikoto’s A.A.A. and chopped off the boy’s right arm with a chainsaw because the silver girl assumed it would get in the way of her treatment. Everyone had been focused on whether or not the boy would survive, but what had happened to the severed arm afterwards?

Hadn’t it landed in the center of Shokuhou Misaki’s ample chest where she held it in her arms?

“I had thought it was odd that Imagine Breaker was not returning to its original owner. But even this is only a temporary deception. It will eventually return to him. No matter how much you try to keep it hidden.”


So what actually IB is? If even Demon considered it as a puzzle.

Choronzon actually asked the question that may just relate to the very core of the history.
Choronzon mentioned that IB breaks, a part of the natural cycle in which decomposition occurs.
On the other hand IT is mentioned to be decomposable. It belongs to the category that creates stagnation in the world.

And despite IB can take various form, why fixated to be Touma's arm only?
The there is the fact IB served as a lock on IT. I think we can start to connect the dots.

Originally Posted by dniv

Also, @shmaster, it seems unlikely it'd just be a normal weapon, lol. Though I guess I'm not sure if Ollerus ever said it was a magical weapon. But both Choronzon and Ollerus have referenced it having different forms over time. You could be right, but I'm honestly not sure.

I am pretty sure "magical" is not what they mean.
Rather, IB may have different approach in performing its function base on the host it choose.
Certainly, when it once was a giant labyrinth, it has to be functioning differently than a right hand.

[dniv]

There, I fixed my avatar picture and the text underneath it!

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by shmaster

Speaking of which, I wonder how the layer of the phases is related to the structure of the Sephiroth.
The current material word, which is the lowest realm of the Sephiroth is referred to as the surface. Which make sense, as it is the top most layer of the phases.
While Choronzon is capable of impacting the basic world because the basic world is the bottom most layer, which correlate with the Abyss, the bottom later of the Sephiroth the divided the top three Sephira and Da'ath from the rest.
And is the basic world all science and no super natural? Aiwass and Choronzon originated from the basic world already raised questions.
Now that even the basic world can be influenced through the analogy with Sephiroth has made it even more questionable.

Or could we take a wholestic approach? Perhaps it is not the basic world is magical, but because arrangement of the phases had accumulated into the form of Sephiroth. The entire structural design of worldly phase has adopted to a central magic property that is tree of life, regardless each individual phases is magical or not.

Now here are the question. In this arrangement, what will be the Keter? And what may be the Da'ath?

Keter is whatever limitless potential that gave rise to the world while Da'at is all the sefirah in union no? Even Choronzon taking on material form is described by it as moving down the Sefirot so is there even such a thing as a base world of pure science in this sense? At the very least the base physical world sounds like the Malkuth emanation to me while the "true nature" of the world is the empty potential described by the Keter sefirah