Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 09 Discussion / Poll

[An Hero in Disguise]

@ Keroko:

The Doctor is most probably producing his drones and conducting his research in different dimensions indeed, and most likely those where TSAB would have troubles searching for him. It'd be very hard for him to do all that himself, so he's probably getting help from his client(s), who could as well be a part of TSAB.

I could've started an argument about mass drone teleportation issues but as we know close to nothing about teleportation mechanics in Nanohaverse that'd be pretty useless.

@ Kha:

Does it imply that drones are capable of warping by themselves? Or there's no maximum distance for the host to teleport the targets from one place to another? We seriously need more background on techno-magic in Nanohaverse to back up our points.

@ LoweGear:

That'd be cool if they actually showed something like that: TSAB, playing the role closest to police, interacting with other large organizations like regular MC army, secret service etc. That'd also explain the extent of power TSAB has ATM.

[Burner of Anime]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

That all changes the things a bit but doesn't make TSAB look any better with their inability to handle things properly themselves. The decision to trust Nanoha and Fate to deal with the problems in S1 and S2 may be correct but tne need for TSAB to make such decision shows their weakness as the order-enforcing organization. If their power is so lacking I wonder how they're able to prevent large-scale conflicts at all.

Ouch, I'm talking about S1 and S2 again. That was the last time for sure now.

I see the TSAB as some sort of monolithic organisation whose focus is generally inwards [as it should be] before dealing with lost logia devices and people who can exploit them. I doubt that they are the only civilisation in Nanohaverse, but may be the most powerful looking at how they train and maintain their combat forces.

The problem with this setup? Too much control and the fact everyone is trained the same way. When the big **** hits, the red tape in getting help can be fatal and embarressing [airport fire]. Add AMF drones to this and I see the redshirts die in droves.

Anyway, this episode did highlight why Velka users nearly died out. The strain from the sudden rush of magic from the cartridge system would have eventually killed or crippled the user. Likely it is why the Wolkenritter rarely use it themselves and just train up their bodies and melee skills to compensate.

Nanoha as a wild mage didn't have the foundational training to build that strength, or like Fate have the focussed training to channel all her innate power. Looking at the effect of Velka style on Hayate when she was unprepared and unaware, I can only surmise that the constant and unconscious use simply exhausted the girl and started eating into her body. All it took was 1 year, just nasty.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

My point is, it shouldn't be even necessary to think about different decisions in S1 cases - there should be exact rules for handling them. Even more so if it's a standart case, as you mention.

EXACT RULES?

First of, the Asura was there on patrol, they were unsure what to expect hence they decide to go safe, which is why I said that was what they initally thought.

When it turns out the case was slightly different, Lindy thought there was nothing wrong, which there isn't, with getting nanoha and Yuuno's help.

There are ALWAYS exceptions in life. Don't be so stiff.

If it's a case TSAB can handle without much effort, the most logical course of actions would be to disarm Nanoha and send her home, make Yuuno explain himself and cooperate, disarm Fate and lock her up, than deal with the case properly - when it's finished TSAB could approach the girls formally. It could end not that miraculously good as it did in S1 but would be much less risky.

Logical to who?

The situation became a lot different than they expect, and since Nanoha and Yuuno have proven their worth, only an idiot would let such useful people go and risk a crisis just to "follow the rules".

Fate herself was in no position to resist, and her escaping from the ship could be due to the crew being busy with arresting Precia.

Well, if the case is that important TSAB could surely care a bit more about it. In fact we barely see anyone from TSAB act except Nanoha and Fate. It's told that the Book of Darkness reappears about once a generation and causes lots of trouble - if it's that special I could at least expect some kind of elite force to counter it. Instead they prefer to risk the lives of people not even directly related to TSAB. It's OK to use outside help, but here they almost completely rely on it again.

And who is to say what kind of other end-of-the-world plan was going on somewhere out there?

The dimensions are a big place, it's not impossible for some other mess to be going down while they're dealing with the Book of Darkness... And some of them could possibly be as dangerous as the Book of Darkness itself.

For example, Should the government pull manpower away from finding a nuclear bomb just to find a chemical threat BECAUSE it's the recent one?

When there's help, get it... Specially when you're short handed.

Back to S3 and current topic:

Any excuses to present TSAB incompetences?

I'll wait for the season to end before I comment, that way I won't make the mistake of jumping to conclusions.

There are always more than one side of the story.

[Darco_emp]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

@ Keroko:

The Doctor is most probably producing his drones and conducting his research in different dimensions indeed, and most likely those where TSAB would have troubles searching for him. It'd be very hard for him to do all that himself, so he's probably getting help from his client(s), who could as well be a part of TSAB.

That is not entirely true, While Doc may indeed have outside help in hiding from TSAB, it is not unlikely that he can not do that himself, note that Precia did hide from TSAB with Garden of Time, its not unlikely that Doc can do similar things given it appears he may know Precia one way or other...

Does it imply that drones are capable of warping by themselves? Or there's no maximum distance for the host to teleport the targets from one place to another? We seriously need more background on techno-magic in Nanohaverse to back up our points.

Drones can or can't teleport by themself is unknown, and so far we only seen it happen via Lutecia teleporting them. There is a max distance with regards to teleporting of course, since Nanoha metioned the uses of relay ports....

Personally I throught the basic background info are petty well covered, once you go through all the sound stages, novel and fan books

That'd be cool if they actually showed something like that: TSAB, playing the role closest to police, interacting with other large organizations like regular MC army, secret service etc. That'd also explain the extent of power TSAB has ATM.

What I see TSAB as is like a defence dept of a country with amry, intelligence and law keepers... What I want to know is does TSAB interact with goverments of a world that have mages or dimension travel tech for example....

Need to bait a certain person into posting....

[Kha]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

@ Kha:

Does it imply that drones are capable of warping by themselves? Or there's no maximum distance for the host to teleport the targets from one place to another? We seriously need more background on techno-magic in Nanohaverse to back up our points.

We have a few scattered hints, like Nanoha mentioning that it takes longer to get from Mid Childa to Earth than from the main HQ naval base where the Infinite Library is, in other words, even at relativistic speeds its still dam far from Earth. I forgot whether the latest SS reflects that.

Also, it is known that teleportation systems don't have to be mounted onto the mage/object to be teleported. The Asura has a personnel insertion system that can mass tele Enforcers into a target once the vectors are certain. While it might be harder to warp Drones from once dimension to another by remote, it has not been proven to be impossible, probably just needing a bigger reactor, stronger warp systems or just more energy, and given that we know nothing about the Spagetti lab there's a possibility that it resembles the Garden of Time and can efficiently warp units across multiple dimensions many times without a lengthy recharge in between.

Originally Posted by FlameSparkZ

I second that request

Erio taking Caro on a date

I third it!

@Darco: TSAB has proven to be far more lax than a standard military organisation should be. I'd only give it to be as far as a quasi-military investigation and enforcement agency. That Air Force and Unit thing was probably evolutionary baggage.

[An Hero in Disguise]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

EXACT RULES?

First of, the Asura was there on patrol, they were unsure what to expect hence they decide to go safe, which is why I said that was what they initally thought.

When it turns out the case was slightly different, Lindy thought there was nothing wrong, which there isn't, with getting nanoha and Yuuno's help.

There are ALWAYS exceptions in life. Don't be so stiff.

Well, I think a decent military/police organization should have clear rules how to act in similar situations. I don't think any commander would resort to use an outsider's help during a covert mission in a foreign country if the situation isn't completely out of hand. It's always best to play it the safest way possible.

Logical to who?

The situation became a lot different than they expect, and since Nanoha and Yuuno have proven their worth, only an idiot would let such useful people go and risk a crisis just to "follow the rules".

Fate herself was in no position to resist, and her escaping from the ship could be due to the crew being busy with arresting Precia.

If they were still able to deal with the situation themselves, they should've done so without involving the outsiders. I think any military unit will find it logical enough to avoid involving unnecessary people in its actions as long as it can fullfill its task without it. Do it safe and follow general most fail-proof rules instead of gambling on some unknown person's luck.

And who is to say what kind of other end-of-the-world plan was going on somewhere out there?

The dimensions are a big place, it's not impossible for some other mess to be going down while they're dealing with the Book of Darkness... And some of them could possibly be as dangerous as the Book of Darkness itself.

For example, Should the government pull manpower away from finding a nuclear bomb just to find a chemical threat BECAUSE it's the recent one?

When there's help, get it... Specially when you're short handed.

Well, it's also a possible situation. I pointed out that if they could call their own backup making Nanoha and Fate do all the work wasn't the best decision. If they couldn't they did the only thing they had left to do, but it shows that TSAB is really short-handed in that case.

I'll wait for the season to end before I comment, that way I won't make the mistake of jumping to conclusions.

There are always more than one side of the story.

Quite wise, but it's always fun to create some theories and see how close to truth they appear to be.

[Darco_emp]

Originally Posted by FlameSparkZ

I just want to point out that "Pressure Mode" was used in trainings only, it would be insanely dangerous to use it while in combat...

That is not actually been stated that its just for training... The drain can still be a unstoppble side effect of RH, but Nanoha's insane magic regen rate kinda offsets it...

I second that request

Erio taking Caro on a date

Looks like I can not block the flow, espeacially after the StrikerS sound stage....

[kari-no-sugata]

I don't remember anyone mentioning this already (might have overlooked a post), but did anyone notice this:

Spoiler for at 8:35 into the ep:

This is just as Nanoha puts her hand in front of Vita (eyes in the back of her head eh...)

Rather ironic when you consider S2 ep 1...

[kari-no-sugata]

Originally Posted by Darco_emp

That is not actually been stated that its just for training... The drain can still be a unstoppble side effect of RH, but Nanoha's insane magic regen rate kinda offsets it...

Considering it is a particular "mode" of Raising Heart (Device Mode, Excelion Mode, etc) then I would say it is (a) optional and (b) can't be combined with other modes.

[An Hero in Disguise]

Originally Posted by Darco_emp

That is not entirely true, While Doc may indeed have outside help in hiding from TSAB, it is not unlikely that he can not do that himself, note that Precia did hide from TSAB with Garden of Time, its not unlikely that Doc can do similar things given it appears he may know Precia one way or other...

I didn't mean that Doc can't hide well by himself, but hiding, researching, manufacturing drones and sending them on missions constantly (via complicated teleportation techniques?) could be too much to handle for one person - he'll at least need some outside funding and information sources. And as it was already mentioned that he has some client(s) they're probably helping him with the necessary stuff.

[Kha]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata

I don't remember anyone mentioning this already (might have overlooked a post), but did anyone notice this:

Spoiler for at 8:35 into the ep:

This is just as Nanoha puts her hand in front of Vita (eyes in the back of her head eh...)

Rather ironic when you consider S2 ep 1...

That was 10 years ago. I'm sure she has improved since then.

[kari-no-sugata]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

@ Keroko:

The Doctor is most probably producing his drones and conducting his research in different dimensions indeed, and most likely those where TSAB would have troubles searching for him. It'd be very hard for him to do all that himself, so he's probably getting help from his client(s), who could as well be a part of TSAB.

See ep 3, around minutes 13-14.

Fate specifically says that advanced research facilities have been found in prohibited areas / undeveloped planets in the past - they only found them after they were destroyed.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Well, I think a decent military/police organization should have clear rules how to act in similar situations. I don't think any commander would resort to use an outsider's help during a covert mission in a foreign country if the situation isn't completely out of hand. It's always best to play it the safest way possible.

You're short handed, in relatively unknown territorry, and you can recieve the help of an extremely talented mage who knows the region, laws and customs of the area. Can go undercover almost anywhere with minimal discovery risks, and is a potential recruit for your already short handed bureau. I would consider any commander who rejects such help to be an utter and complete fool.

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

If they were still able to deal with the situation themselves, they should've done so without involving the outsiders. I think any military unit will find it logical enough to avoid involving unnecessary people in its actions as long as it can fullfill its task without it. Do it safe and follow general most fail-proof rules instead of gambling on some unknown person's luck.

They posed a choice to Nanoha and Yuuno wether they wanted to help or not, already heavilly involved in the world of magic it was only a matter of time before Nanoha would have fallen under the TSAB watch anyway. You can't leave an extremely talented mage on a low-magical culture planet unwatched.

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Well, it's also a possible situation. I pointed out that if they could call their own backup making Nanoha and Fate do all the work wasn't the best decision. If they couldn't they did the only thing they had left to do, but it shows that TSAB is really short-handed in that case.

Which, I believe, has already been said so in the series.

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Quite wise, but it's always fun to create some theories and see how close to truth they appear to be.

Not to mention discuss them in a civil manner.

[Darco_emp]

Originally Posted by Kha-chan

@Darco: TSAB has proven to be far more lax than a standard military organisation should be. I'd only give it to be as far as a quasi-military investigation and enforcement agency. That Air Force and Unit thing was probably evolutionary baggage.

I think we are given the impression of a lax military structure due to the stage settings, since both Asuna and Mobile Division six are both can not be a measure of a standards in TSAB, since former has a dotting mother and ero chronoiske and latter is SOS dan for Hayate and she merry friends(whom she preys on). . Remember what Vita said about the divsion she was in, that sounded like a standard military to me.

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

I didn't mean that Doc can't hide well by himself, but hiding, researching, manufacturing drones and sending them on missions constantly (via complicated teleportation techniques?) could be too much to handle for one person - he'll at least need some outside funding and information sources. And as it was already mentioned that he has some client(s) they're probably helping him with the necessary stuff.

If the Doc does research and manufacturing in remote worlds then it is petty unlikely that he will be found. Since TSAB can hardly cover every planet with or without intelligent life.

However since he somehow got hold of Jewel Seeds replica or not, that requires someone that has handled it in TSAB or in the Church while means a info source in TSAB is indeed very likely

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Well, I think a decent military/police organization should have clear rules how to act in similar situations. I don't think any commander would resort to use an outsider's help during a covert mission in a foreign country if the situation isn't completely out of hand. It's always best to play it the safest way possible.

This isn't Earth after all.

Mid-Childa may be similar in many ways, but there are obviously certain differences.

What may seem unacceptable to us, could be different to them.

If they were still able to deal with the situation themselves, they should've done so without involving the outsiders. I think any military unit will find it logical enough to avoid involving unnecessary people in its actions as long as it can fullfill its task without it. Do it safe and follow general most fail-proof rules instead of gambling on some unknown person's luck.

Ah, but neither Nanoha nor Fate are considered strangers anymore.

A's took place 6 months after the end of the first season. They have a good idea of the potential that the two of them possesses.

Though unofficial, the two of them could be considered allies now. And Nanoha isn't considered unnecessary either, she was involved in an attack.

Well, it's also a possible situation. I pointed out that if they could call their own backup making Nanoha and Fate do all the work wasn't the best decision. If they couldn't they did the only thing they had left to do, but it shows that TSAB is really short-handed in that case.

It was decided that the two of them would be of great help to the case, hence they trust the judgement of two of their Admirals.

Quite wise, but it's always fun to create some theories and see how close to truth they appear to be.

Forgive me , I don't do well with conspiracy theories ...

EDIT:

What a long week it's going to be I can't wait for the light-heartness of episode 10

[Thisguy]

Originally Posted by Darco_emp

That is not actually been stated that its just for training... The drain can still be a unstoppble side effect of RH, but Nanoha's insane magic regen rate kinda offsets it...

Yikes, now I finally remember what I swore to do a month ago.

I'll make it short as possible, as I've yet to do what I said I would to Skane.
That scanlation is off.
Original Japanese manga words it in more emphasys to that "Pressure" being training, not to mention that everything else in that chapter is about training.

Oh, and just so you know, it doesn't use the exact word "draining", instead it simply says "It's putting stress on Nanoha's magic power".

[Darco_emp]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Forgive me , I don't do well with conspiracy theories ...

Once again I point you to the 10 page of gloom....

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Darco_emp

However since he somehow got hold of Jewel Seeds replica or not, that requires someone that has handled it in TSAB or in the Church while means a info source in TSAB is indeed very likely

Who is to say that Yuuno's Jewel Seeds were the only ones? Since the TSAB heard of them before, surely there must have been more. I don't find it unlikely that the doctor simply dug some up himself.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Thisguy

Yikes, now I finally remember what I swore to do a month ago.

I'll make it short as possible, as I've yet to do what I said I would to Skane.
That scanlation is off.
Original Japanese manga words it in more emphasys to that "Pressure" being training, not to mention that everything else in that chapter is about training.

Oh, and just so you know, it doesn't use the exact word "draining", instead it simply says "It's putting stress on Nanoha's magic power".

And the final whistle has been blown!!!

Originally Posted by Darco_emp

Once again I point you to the 10 page of gloom....

I'm innocent! Innocent I tell ya! INNOCENT!

I-It... It's a conspiracy against me!!

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Keroko

Who is to say that Yuuno's Jewel Seeds were the only ones? Since the TSAB heard of them before, surely there must have been more. I don't find it unlikely that the doctor simply dug some up himself.

But it could also be possible that the ones Chrono and Lindy talked about are one and the same...

[Flar]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

EXACT RULES?

First of, the Asura was there on patrol, they were unsure what to expect hence they decide to go safe, which is why I said that was what they initally thought.

When it turns out the case was slightly different, Lindy thought there was nothing wrong, which there isn't, with getting nanoha and Yuuno's help.

There are ALWAYS exceptions in life. Don't be so stiff.

There isn't anything wrong with making a nine year old fight your battles? What the hell.
Gee, let's find some guerilla Iraqi children instead of using marines, shall we? Nothing wrong with that. Bonus if they're called Sagara.
Them having talent is no excuse for sending them into danger. Recruit and train, yes, hide behind and see how it goes, no.

Seriously, it doesn't matter if Nanoha and Yuuno were good, they still were unknown variables, with untested powers and loyalties. The Athra had at the very minimum Chrono and Lindy, who were much more reliable for all purposes. It's not about making exception, it's about taking the best course of action.
Imagine Fate had a Volkenritter's power at the time, or that Nanoha developped the overload syndrome much earlier, both eventualities entirely possible, and Nanoha, an untrained civilian, dies. How can that be considered the best course of action?

Also, of course, if a battleship is short-handed to deal with a single AAA mage and her familiar, there is something wrong with the organisation, since it's not really customary to send out a carrier on a long exploration and monitoring mission with a crew that can barely hope to stay alive if it encounters any hostile on the way. Kinda like manning the Entreprise with 3/4 red shirts and hoping it doesn't get sunk during the first episode.

But anyway, there is no way they are short-handed when Chrono and the Lieze sisters can make the Earth-Mid-Earth roundtrip fast enough to not miss anything of the action.

Logical to who?

The situation became a lot different than they expect, and since Nanoha and Yuuno have proven their worth, only an idiot would let such useful people go and risk a crisis just to "follow the rules".

Logical to any organisation. Nanoha and Yuuno only proved their power. Aside from the "hero factor" what makes the TSAB trust them? What if Nanoha had shifted allegiance mid-serie to ally with Fate and Precia -which would probably have happened if Precia had not that plot device ultimate evil to destroy aura- ?

Fate herself was in no position to resist, and her escaping from the ship could be due to the crew being busy with arresting Precia.

If Fate can be disposed off so easily, why use a child civilian to fight your easy battles?

For example, Should the government pull manpower away from finding a nuclear bomb just to find a chemical threat BECAUSE it's the recent one?

Yes they should, when it's a bomb they know appears regularly and can destroy planets. A bomb they have data on, and had time to form teams and strategies to take out, on top of that.

If they are so short handed as to not being able to deploy personel to cover planetary level threats, they suck even more than if they deployed incompetent ones

But off course we know they aren't short on personel, since they assign SS mages to desk jobs, and deploy fleets of flying (AA+) guys to deal with a localized fire on Mid.



On-topic: Watched the Raw, and I'm still wodnering how they got images from nanoha before she met Yuuno. I accept that Amy has cameras she can point anywhere anytime, but why point them at Nanoha before she even showed signs of being a magical girl? Was she already in the TSAB files as an exceptional mage potential? Is this a X-men cerebro case? Would it have turned like a Chidori case if not for Fate?