2009-09-24, 02:00 | Link #1981 |
It's the year 3030...
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spaceport Colony Sicilia
Age: 39
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While I can't say I'm 100% against the "luck" idea, I've been rather engaged recently, in a Richard Dawkins book (The Selfish Gene), in which he postulates that we simply exist because the proper set of variables and systems came together in such a way as to foster the existence of "life." Obviously, I use the term life loosely, as this would be life in its simplest form (an individual, single-celled organism), but bear with me on terminology. As time progressed, this particular entity somehow reproduced (perhaps, and most probably, asexually; that is, mitosis). As the surroundings and environment changed, the organism was forced to change as well, developing beneficial mutations which would allow it to exist beyond the lifespan of it's predecessor. Eventually, through general Darwinian logic (survival of the fittest, etc.), these new organisms led to the extinction of their predecessors. Continue down this path for...oh, 400,000,000 years or so...and, viola! here we are. Essentially, the argument Dawkins makes in the book is that our genes look for genetic advantages over other genes, and attempt to exploit them to perpetuate their own survival. He extrapolates this theory beyond simple genetics, but the basic points remain the same; we exist in our current form because our genes have developed the means of perpetuating their own survival, via eliminating flaws and enhancing strengths within themselves and their "peers". These traits obviously extend to all living things and their genes (Dawkins takes a liking to using birds as a means of demonstrating his points), but humans seem to be the most obvious case study to examine as, well, that's what we are.
Now, perhaps I'm way off base in the discussion here, as I didn't read the full 100 pages of this thread before commenting. If such is the case, forgive me. However, the latter pages seemed to delve more into the scientific v. religious explanation for life as it currently exists, and so I thought this may be relevant. Note: Grains of salt to be distributed after you have completed reading this post. =) Edit: When I was young, and was forced to do everything my parents said, I attended church. My pastor once said, during a conversation I was having with him over Creation v. Evolution: Would it be a stretch to suggest that "God" created life, and life evolved into what it is today? Somehow, that's stuck with me through the years. Perhaps there is no ultimate deity that created us as we currently are, but instead created the situation by which we were allowed to evolve into what we are today. Whether he still keeps his hand in the proverbial cookie jar is another discussion entirely.
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2009-09-24, 02:07 | Link #1982 |
Protecting the Throne
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Asia Tour
Age: 32
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I believe that science is responsible for the explanation of alot of things but not everything. I agree with Cipher on how "lucky" we just happen to be and that it's true that we have come to be and even how things have come to be not only because of what meets the eye or what can be observed through a microscope.
Here's a nice dialogue I found amusing: Spoiler for =):
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2009-09-24, 02:20 | Link #1983 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 42
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2009-09-24, 02:24 | Link #1984 |
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There is no luck. Nothing happens at random. Everything happens because of a reason. But not always "for" a reason so don't you dare think there is fate. And in case you are wandering, yes, everything is cause and effect, where effect becomes the cause of something else later on. And yes, that requires for the universe to be eternal or at least for God to exist in order to have caused the first effect that made everything else to follow. So, every event in existense is basically a chain reaction and nothing happens at random or without a reason. People usually don't see the big picture and attribute what they don't see as luck and a mystery.
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2009-09-24, 02:45 | Link #1986 | |||
It's the year 3030...
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spaceport Colony Sicilia
Age: 39
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Really? Damn. I bet there's a lot of people with losing lottery tickets who are more pissed off now than they were before.
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This just sounds like the random ravings of a religious person, attempting to disprove science in favor of the "God" theory. Things happen because other things happened, even though those things that happen sometimes don't mean anything. The universe exists, and must be eternal, therefor God must exist. From my, admittedly, minimal religious knowledge (I really only have experience with Lutheranism), religious folks would choose to argue that everything happens for a reason, though we may not know what that reason is. While I can understand where the idea of "no such thing as luck" comes from, within the context of this belief, it seems out of place in your argument. The idea that God controls the things that happen, but that those things may happen for no reason seems unusually cruel to me, if they come from a truly omniscient being. The idea of God toying with his creation with no purpose; doesn't that unsettle you just a little bit?
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2009-09-24, 03:11 | Link #1987 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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However, if we view this supreme being as a creator and man as part of his creation, then so called preferential treatment only comes from having a different purpose than another creation, such as the animals. Different purpose would necessitate different attribute(s). And along with level of intelligence and the ability to reason, man is differentiated from animals by the ability to have faith in and worship such a creator. To go back to the part that I agree with, yes such a being would not need any kind of worship from man. Need in the sense that worship benefits such a being in any way. In fact, worship that comes from faith shows the realization that man needs his creator rather than the other way around. So rather than seeing what is similar between man and animals and deciding that such similarity does not justify preferential treatment, I look at what makes them different and see how such difference enables different purpose for man. And if that purpose is enough for man to be accorded preferential treatment, it would not come out of a need for man's worship. Instead, it is out of the creator's sovereignty in being able to choose what he wants to give to man to serve the creator's will. |
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2009-09-24, 03:16 | Link #1988 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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To respond to Cipher, no *I'm* not a Deist. About the closest thing that might describe me is a "skeptical zen animist". As a poetic description, I think each one of us is an example of complexity arising out of the flow of reality, an instance of a standing wave, swirl, or froth that exists for a brief time. Some of us happen to be complex enough to look around and be self-aware, perhaps even compare notes with others. We should simply cherish the brief time we have as an amazing thing.
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2009-09-24, 03:44 | Link #1989 | |
Come and drink my koolaid
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And what?
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2009-09-24, 05:41 | Link #1990 | |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Ignorance is bliss, isn't it? |
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2009-09-24, 06:08 | Link #1991 |
I'll end it before April.
Join Date: Jul 2008
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I'm an atheist. I don't believe in God and the all "human were created by him". The truth is I find more probable that human were created by Alien than God. I have always thinking than maybe God is just something to describe alien.
And I don't think the Earth and the Universe were made by God. It's true that the life on Earth is due to many extraodinary conditions (Jupiter, distance with the sun, the Moon etc...) but it's not impossible. And we start finding some extra-planet which seems to be close to the Earth in term of composition. About the religion in itself, it's a good and bad thing. It's a good thing because religion is something which can stop people to do some bad thing. They believe in God and Satan. So they won't do something bad because they don't want to go in Hell. Futhermore, Religion give hope to people which is important. But it's also a bad thing because many conflicts is due to religion.
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2009-09-24, 07:04 | Link #1992 | |
is this so?
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Gradius Home World
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That's so presumptuous of you. You're so annoyed because a person is living for the sake of enjoying life? If you expect every person in the world to show unlimited benevolence, then you have a serious problem in your way of thinking. I already have my hands full with a job and several other responsibilities, so don't expect me to perform charity work for people whom I don't even know. Donating a little cash to the church (whenever my catholic coworkers convince me to come with them) is the only charity that I do. *to the other debaters here, sorry for my off topic post
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Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2009-09-24 at 07:22. |
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2009-09-24, 07:16 | Link #1993 | |||
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2009-09-24, 07:33 | Link #1994 | |||
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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2009-09-24, 07:36 | Link #1995 | ||
Hina is my goddess
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I've been looking for a chance to jump into this conversation for a whiile now.
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2009-09-24, 09:19 | Link #1996 | |
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2009-09-24, 09:26 | Link #1997 | |||||||||
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On Groups of living things, I understand where your coming from. But there are society norms we have to consider. I've eaten "chicken" for as long as I can remember, and yet I don't feel any regret towards consuming them. It is pretty justifiable---society norm-wise. I focus more on humanity because I've regarded them as the most influential, and therefore, sadly but true, " more important" beings. As selfish(note: there is no such thing as true selflessness) as it may seem, Islam had let me realize that animals, the world and nature are there for our own existence. This doesn't mean we shouldn't respect these "creations". By respecting them, regardless of justifiable intent(consuming), we respect what God has given to us, and therefore respect God. Quote:
Last edited by Cipher; 2009-09-24 at 09:38. |
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2009-09-24, 09:48 | Link #1998 | ||
Hina is my goddess
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2009-09-24, 10:00 | Link #1999 | |
I'll end it before April.
Join Date: Jul 2008
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As I said, there are good and bad points with religion. You can't only say there are only good points because it's not true. Anyway, What do you think of sect ? Am I the only one who think that our actual religion were, at the begining, sect and then evolved into religion ?
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2009-09-24, 10:29 | Link #2000 | |||||||
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Just an important point, the three do not share the same God. I've studied Christianity and Judaism quite well that I've understood the real differences between these three religions of the book (of course,the things I've studied might have actually been false themselves---enlighten me if it is so). (Christians please don't kill me) Christians' God(or one of their Gods) is a man named Jesus. ( I understand "the three beings in one" concept but still...this is the fact.) With Judaism, they're God is only exclusively theirs, outsiders may not join their religion (might have changed over years but still..it was or is exclusive.) Quote:
This is what I mean by a "test". A test on "faith"(believing in the less tangible), "actions"(good or bad actions), and the situational "fate" he has created to test if others where to react well-enough upon others' ill fates. The complexity of Allah is bothersome(we truly don't know how he manages humanity and what all of his purposes are...what we can only depend on is "faith")....but it does show "wit" in some aspects. Quote:
Luckily, Islam's God has been almost extremely described as "very merciful". Even a ridiculous amount of murders (lets say , 20 thousand?) could be forgiven if the murderer would truly change. Quote:
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A direct answer to your last question: probably no. (oh...One important thing that's offending me...its not "Islamism"..its just "Islam", please correct that) Hey, we have the same age. peace.. Last edited by Cipher; 2009-09-24 at 10:55. |
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not a debate, philosophy, religion |
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