World Of Warcraft Discussion Thread

[Last Sinner]

I think the lineup went like this:

Protection Paladin as tank
4 Fury Warriors
1 Death Knight
1 Rogue
Either a Ret Paladin or Enhancement Shaman
2 Healers, one was a Shaman for Heroism

All-out DPS on Sarth, Pally tank holds aggro on both Sarth and Tenebron. Kill Sarth, get achievement, wipe to Tenebron. Video is just crazy. Sartharion falls so fast it seems impossible...yet it happens.

It was simply a case of 'We can do this.' 10 mans have been acknowledged as being harder than 25 mains in this expansion, which Blizzard admitted they got wrong big time. So 25s should be harder than 10s for 3.1+ content...theoretically.


On a very amusing note - I somehow fluked getting Northern Exposure on a 4th character...this time my Shaman. Was finishing up my last Borean Tundra quests in the Coldarra, then as I'm riding back for a turn-in and to log, Old Crystalbark is there....by pure chance. Aggroed about 10 mobs as I pulled him out of panic as I had Horde 80s hovering all around me for the previous 15 minutes, did not want them to see it. Kamikaze zerged it, laughed, looted lovely Plate Lv70 Soldier Combo gloves, made a couple of idiots emo rage and get laughed at, hearthed. No idea how I've done this on 4 characters...I had a very weird feeling for the last week my Shaman was going to find one in Borean Tundra. Something sparked me to play it today after not playing it for a fair while. It happened. Perhaps there is such a thing as fate. Either way, I'm stoked.

[RWBladewing]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Oh. Are they complaining about it being easy or are they happy with the encounters?

People aren't complaining any more than usual, at least the ones that understand it's still a testing phase and pretty much everything is still subject to change. For example Hodir has had his numbers adjusted pretty significantly throughout the period, he has so much hp now that his hardmode is supposedly a decent challenge (though I still say that a timer is NOT a true hardmode). Am I worried that the non-hardmode encounters are still going to be too easy? Yes, but I'm not going to actually complain until they're finalized and I've tried them myself.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by RWBladewing

Am I worried that the non-hardmode encounters are still going to be too easy? Yes, but I'm not going to actually complain until they're finalized and I've tried them myself.

Actually, now is the time to complain. That's what the public tests are for, to give the players a chance to try things out and give their own input on the game. If you have a chance to try it, and you don't complain now, then you really have no right to complain when the patch is finalized.

[RWBladewing]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Actually, now is the time to complain. That's what the public tests are for, to give the players a chance to try things out and give their own input on the game. If you don't complain now, then you really have no right to complain when the patch is finalized.

That's not "complaining", that's "providing feedback". Something I can't really do as per my previous posts Blizzard has seen fit to boot me off the server everytime I have attempted a boss.

Not to mention, complaining after the fact seems to almost be more effective in Blizzard's case. Lots of issues were brought up by WotLK beta testers and many of them went into live, to be fixed only after everyone started complaining (DKs, ret paladins, buggy vehicles, Naxx being too easy which they ignored but have now admitted was the case).

[Nosauz]

Complaining about it being too easy is gonna fall on deaf ears. This is because blizzard is targetting the casual this xpac and it just won't be that challenging for those who enjoy raiding. PTR are just to test bugs, blizzard won't cater to the small percentage of "hardcore" raiders or just competent people who play the game because really there are lot s of idiots who just want free boss kills and free purps.

[Last Sinner]

My simple hopes for Ulduar:

1. That it is actually an instance that when you finally full clear it, you feel like you've achieved something big and that the work and struggle was worth it.
2. That Brann Bronzebeard owns!

[Nosauz]

1. It won't happen... They said that nothing will be harder than SWP, which was the pinnacle of raiding. I mean when me and 24 of my buds killed KJ for the first time, and the first time the damn legendary bow dropped, it was just an amazing feeling that I think will never return to raiding.
2. Brann is a retard... Like seriously how long does it take you to look at a stupid room... and how oblivous does he have to be... gettin wtf smacked by an army of iron dwarfs.

[RWBladewing]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

Complaining about it being too easy is gonna fall on deaf ears. This is because blizzard is targetting the casual this xpac and it just won't be that challenging for those who enjoy raiding. PTR are just to test bugs, blizzard won't cater to the small percentage of "hardcore" raiders or just competent people who play the game because really there are lot s of idiots who just want free boss kills and free purps.

The PTR is for more than just testing bugs, if you follow Worldofraids.com at all you can see that they've made some pretty significant changes to encounters based on feedback. Like I said, yes, I do think it'll end up being easy again but you're jumping to too extreme a conclusion too quickly, with insufficient supporting evidence. At the very least, the first fight being a vehicle fight should serve to keep some of the mindless terribles out, as phase 3 Malygos gives horrible players fits.

Oh and I never want to see Brann again. To stand out as extra terrible voice acting in an expansion with terrible voice acting all around is no small feat.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by RWBladewing

That's not "complaining", that's "providing feedback".

Sorry for the misunderstanding. WoW players often tend to blur the line there.

That being said, I don't understand why they don't make the instance difficulties so needlessly... well... difficult. I wouldn't mind if the instances all gained a proper right-click easy/hard mode, with the easy using the casual settings and the hard mode beefing up the enemies hit points and damage to vanilla-level difficulty. That would keep both parties happy.

[RWBladewing]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Sorry for the misunderstanding. WoW players often tend to blur the line there.

That being said, I don't understand why they don't make the instance difficulties so needlessly... well... difficult. I wouldn't mind if the instances all gained a proper right-click easy/hard mode, with the easy using the casual settings and the hard mode beefing up the enemies hit points and damage to vanilla-level difficulty. That would keep both parties happy.

They've done a bit of that with some of the Ulduar hard modes, XT002 Deconstructor gains additional stats and abilities if you kill his heart for example, though it would be preferable if all the bosses had a "vanilla mode" like you suggest instead of some of the more gimmicky hard modes or incredibly lame timers. That actually wouldn't keep everyone happy though, as some people think different modes ruin progression or the integrity of the encounter, and that people should not able to see later bosses just because they were able to down a previous boss on an easy mode. That's a debate I won't go into though.

[Last Sinner]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

1. It won't happen... They said that nothing will be harder than SWP, which was the pinnacle of raiding. I mean when me and 24 of my buds killed KJ for the first time, and the first time the damn legendary bow dropped, it was just an amazing feeling that I think will never return to raiding.
2. Brann is a retard... Like seriously how long does it take you to look at a stupid room... and how oblivous does he have to be... gettin wtf smacked by an army of iron dwarfs.

1. TBC made me want to quit. It was dead beyond SSC. It was pathetic. It made a lot of people want to quit. It made plenty of top level players I knew in server and IRL have to quit because it was simply too time consuming. Yes, let's spend 8 hours every night of the week for close to half a year finishing this place. Sorry, people have jobs, relationships, chores, responsibilities. IRL wellbeing and moneyu >> e-peen. Furthermore, I've never heard more complaints about any stretch of raiding than I did about Hyjal onwards. What that did to people was criminal.

LK has changed that to a fair extent. And if some hardcores have to emo slash themselves to make people with IRL constraints able to properly enjoy the game...I don't care. As for the pinnacle of raiding - Twin Emps, Ouro, Naxx 60. SWP was just rehash of vanilla WoW encounters. TBC had better aesthetics but aside from Magtheridon (the original terribad-proof encounter), some parts of Karazhan and the latter half of SSC, it was bloody boring.

LK has lore. Interesting lore. Good lore. TBC lore was random and wafer-thin, save for Shattrath.

As long as Valanyr isn't a legendary that most random unworthy sub-par healers can get, that's fine by me.

2. Have fun putting up with him during the four titans and Algalon then. I found him rather amusing. He could never be as oblivious as Arthas in CoS.


@Blade: Phase 3 Malygos gives people fits because they're too terribad to be able to read one sentence. I get top 3 DPS with my drake consistently - it's not hard...1-1-2, hit 5 if you're focused and break left when the orb comes, Didn't the crystal daily in Blade's Edge teach people anything?!

And yes, most bosses get siginficant buffs on Hard Mode. Pity the loot doesn't look worth the effort until around the half-way point of either 25 difficulty.

I remember seeing a blue post saying that Blizzard were very keen to create a fight where no healing was needed and that it would be a pure DPS race. Expect something like that later this expansion.

[RWBladewing]

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

@Blade: Phase 3 Malygos gives people fits because they're too terribad to be able to read one sentence. I get top 3 DPS with my drake consistently - it's not hard...1-1-2, hit 5 if you're focused and break left when the orb comes, Didn't the crystal daily in Blade's Edge teach people anything?!

I especially like the morons who actually feel they are justified in being terrible at Malygos. "I leveled my class to 80 and I want to play my class with my spells, not some stupid dragon, this encounter sucks." Sorry you are too retarded to do anything but the routine you have memorized, pushing 3 buttons and sometimes moving sure is hard. Flame Leviathan is supposedly very easy but I know it will still generate a ton of this crap, there's already posts complaining about it from people who haven't even seen the encounter.

[Last Sinner]

I'd be amused to see how people would react to a pure DPS fight, because that is something that will happen eventually. Hmm, another reason for Dual Specs, maybe? Loatheb is probably the closest thing to such a concept. Leotheras the Blind went more towards forcing healer classes to DPS as well as enforcing a race/time limit, but still had a fair heal demand due to Whirlwind and damage from the demons. I remember how many people struggled to be able to conceive the idea of killing something rather than spambot healing. There was little variety in healing moves back then compared to now. Although Priests would probably disagree to a fair degree. *sigh* That was a fun encounter...wish they would do a couple more like that or go for a DPS only fight.

What makes me laugh as well is how many people don't react to things like Void Zones...there's a bloody glowing circle/column that is about to blow...it doesn't kill anyone to spend 2-3 seconds moving but it sure as heck does if you don't. What utterly bemuses me is how many people say they don't even see them, even when the spell detail settings and such are correct. Big bloody glowing circle = Big Bada Boom = MOVE. Seriously, you'd think people didn't learn from Ceiling Fall in Gruul/Magtheridon. They still don't considering how many people die to that fall AoE on Archavon trash. "Heal me through it." I don't think so.

Same can be said for the orbs in Malygos Phase 3. Still so many around that don't even move when they come. Or those that drift too far to the side in anticipation. Acutally, that's even worse - side drifting. You miss AoE heals if you do that, so why would somebody do it? (shrug) That's a reason I liked Magtheridon as an encounter so much. Hey - stop spanking and click that damn cube before everyone is creamed. "Oh, I didn't see the emote." "Oh, I forgot I was a clicker." "Um, I forgot to stand in the right place." You're pretty much spot on, Blade. A lot of people seem to lose their heads when they have to do anything else aside from using their normal spells/attacks. Malygos Phase 3 and The Oculus are pretty damn user friendly with their descriptions of each move. To claim ignorance after that is a very big slander against those who claim it.

Malygos 6 minutes was a very nice achievement because it demands such precision in order to pull it off. You have to beat the 2nd Vortex to trigger Phase 2 quickly enough. You have to have a fair bit over 2 minutes left come the RP prelude to Phase 3. And you really have to nail those rotations. It can be demanding, but seeing it all come together and work that efficiently is very satisfying. Undying and other achievements can be done somewhat relaxed on most encounters and with lower numbers. Maly 6 mins imposes very tight restrictions that have to be followed to the letter. Rarely heard people that elated when I got it done. That aspect of harder raiding I don't mind.

[Nosauz]

ssc wasn't hard... gruuls and mag were fucking hard after the tbc luanch. And coming off raiding in nilla wow, ssc and tk were harder but what really killed raiding at least for high end raiders was the lull between bt and swp. SWP is the best encounter at that gear level, each downing was of pure skill not random face rolling. Everybody had to be on the ball, unlike say most the bosses upto archimonde and illidan, kael, vashj. I never spent more than 3hours a night a mebbe some change if we were on some boss attempts when we raided ssc/tk, but gruuls is another story.
Hyjal did suck especially since you couldn't get another shot at a boss with out clearing the trash, but hey at the time we needed the hearts for mother so it was a necessary evil. Don't even get me started on the many bads we kicked when started teron. Trust me though some of the best raiding came during SWP, why? Because it wasn't just Nihilium, SK gaming leading, there was an actual battle for world firsts, unlike the tame raiding of today.

I'm fine with bads not being able to do their supposed rotations, but not even being able to dps properly is what drives me nuts... like roges doing it from the front... a tanks worst nightmare.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

I think the lineup went like this:

Protection Paladin as tank
4 Fury Warriors
1 Death Knight
1 Rogue
Either a Ret Paladin or Enhancement Shaman
2 Healers, one was a Shaman for Heroism

All-out DPS on Sarth, Pally tank holds aggro on both Sarth and Tenebron. Kill Sarth, get achievement, wipe to Tenebron. Video is just crazy. Sartharion falls so fast it seems impossible...yet it happens.

Actually, only one healer.

1 prot pally
2 DKs
4 Fury warriors
1 rogue
1 resto shaman
1 feral druid

So one healer, one tank and the rest dps. The drakes apparently enrage when Sarth hits 25%, so the feral druid had to taunt it and run away in travel form in order to distract it long enough for the others to finish Sarth off. It's actually slightly more impossible than you imagined.

[Last Sinner]

@Clarste: Argh, forgot that damn Druid! Remember hearing Bleed DPS is actually good these days if you get the rotation right. Thanks for clearing that up.

@Nosauz: All I know is a lot of good friends of mine were virtually zombie-like in between Hyjal-SWP. They're now healtheir and happier and have better IRL prospects. I know in terms of challenge and epicness, SWP was good, but I don't like what that era of raiding did to a lot of people.

[Nosauz]

eh, I was zombied during the break between bt and swp. Basically it was either killing illidan for the week or just pvp in the world, and in the end it just wasn't that fun. The worst part about bc was that lull in new content, where as there was never that situation for ssc/tk progression. That being said Vashj and kael were tuned like hell and were also very damn rewarding. Kel? saphirron? Os3d? Mal? They just didn't offer the epicness. Hell even malchazen was more interesting than most of the encounters in lich king. Gruuls and Mag are more technical then current raiding environment which is just sad. Raiding took too much of hit on difficulty, instead of "raiding 101", we went to "raiding and your baby".

[Last Sinner]

Every blue post on that seems to insist that the reverse is going to happen - that most people will quickly complain abotu Ulduar being too hard. Nerf-Naxx was Blizzard's apology for 95% of players not getting to see enough of Naxx 60. Hopefully we return to serious business come 3.1. It angers me when a random scrub can get just as geared as a pro in the current environment. Ulduar has to change that, surely.

[Clarste]

Most of the Wrath encounters are less interesting than BC encounters because most of the Wrath encounters are in Naxx. And Naxx was boring, relatively (a weakened version of Naxx, too). A lot of the mechanics that originally seemed cool and creative are old hat now, with every 5 man boss having some variation of them. The real problem stems from the fact that the vast majority of current raid content is recycled from content that's already been recycled many times over.

That said, something that people often seem to forget is that we're still in the first tier of raiding (and Blizzard has made it very clear that they expect each tier to be harder than the last). You're comparing Maly to Kael, when you really should compare him to Gruul. And he's much more technical than Gruul (although most of it falls on the healers). OS3D is much more closely tuned than Mag ever was. And, really, Maly and 3D are the only new raiding content we've gotten in Wrath. Which is a problem on its own, but I don't think you can extrapolate about Ulduar from Naxx.

[Ithekro]

I'm guessing that the raid in Wintergrasp is considered easy than. It's getting a new wing in the expasions as well I think. Though I wonder when the Chamber as Aspects will get added content.