Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll [END]

[Daniel E.]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

It seems that you still didn't understand what my posts are about. I'm assuming that this thread is for the discussion of the final episode of Clannad: AF, and if someone comes in here saying "it's a terrible ending because I didn't understand," then the statement is too vague for me to discuss. I'm bringing it to their attention in order to create a more relevant topic for discussion and luckily the person was kind enough to explain a little bit better on why they thought it was a "terrible ending," hence my explanation in my earlier post about how the plot did a good job at pacing the exposure of the "fantasy" (this is a much better word to use here ) side of the story. It's a public forum and if someone posts a vague opinion, then I'm sure it's well within my rights to try and create a subject worth discussing since this is the reason I'm here.

Oh yes, I can fully agree with this.

I am all for discussing myself; Nothing wrong with asking things either.

Regardless, we must always keep in mind that when personal preferences are being discussed, there should always be a willingness on both sides to accept the possibility of the other side having a bit of truth on their end.

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

hence my explanation in my earlier post about how the plot did a good job at pacing the exposure of the "fantasy" (this is a much better word to use here )

Don't know why I am going with "phantasy" instead..... honest.

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Even if a positive opinion can be shallow, I don't feel it's necessary to discuss something that the majority already agree with, there's no point in discussing.

With this I am gonna have to disagree, but I am also gonna leave it at that for the sake of our sanity.

Originally Posted by velvet

So we should question in each and every post?
Actually, the positive posters being in majority is not helping
Gotta agree with that.

No, not really. That was mostly an example. It would probably make the thread a little too crowed with similar replies; Kinda like everybody replying to everybody.

[milkmandan]

I think the reason why people here who feel the ending was not up to par, is not because the anime didn't explain it, or people didn't understand, but because people had different expectations and maybe even watched it differently.

This sounds confusing but let me explain.

I saw a massive majority of CLANNAD in a marathon sitting.

I started out watching CLANNAD season 1 and stopped at ep 9 or so. The melodrama was too much for me to handle, and 'honestly' was a little too boring. I had no prior background to the story at all, so i had no expectations.

I stopped there and never returned to CLANNAD, until...season 2 came along and watched the first couple episodes for the amazing OP song. With the Mei-Youhei arc being the first, I saw the part with Tomoya have an imouto complex and decided I needed to finish CLANNAD sometime. I didn't want to continue past the end of the mei-arc knowing watching more would screw things out of order.

I put off watching CLANNAD until a few weeks ago, when my friend asked me if Ushio was lolicious. Having not watched CLANNAD at all I had no idea who or what Ushio was. Searching google images i saw some pics and some very brief reviews (very minor spoilers but enough to keep me interested), I came to the decision to marathon it right then and there.

So I sat down (mid-finals week) and powered through EVERYTHING.

I ended up watching CLANNAD with the expectation of an exorbitant amount of melodrama and some lolicious comedy. I didn't go in with 'bad' or no expectations, but this series ended up as an amazing experience to me.

Now if you watched CLANNAD episode by episode waiting week by week, i can imagine how this series did not hit you the way it has for some people. Watching a series slowly, can turn out worse as it gives you too much time to think. For me, I didn't feel the ending was rushed or unexplained. It was paced just as quickly as everything else.

Spoiler for scene:

I thought the episode where Tomoya is already 5 years after Nagisa's death, was rushed and unexplained. They basically summed up 5 years in a matter of minutes.

So yeah :\ Speed at which you watched each episode and expectations can really skew how this series will turn out for you. I'd have to say, CLANNAD is much better marathon-ed than watched episode by episode.

------

Back on topic:
Kotomi's car. I am pretty sure the fact that the setting is on american roads, but the car is british/japanese is just an over sight from the Japanese story boarders.

[Tak]

Inevitably, there are some who lambasted the ending, but beyond accusing it for being deus ex machina and/or too sudden, too abrupt, I have yet to read a single post suggesting what could have been an alternative.

I am also taken slightly aback by people who expressed their surprise when presented with this ending. It is not as if the series held back when inserting elements of the supernatural. People should have expected this ending anyway.

Personally, I think there is little that could be considered an alternative. The fact is, everyone dies. Nagisa dies, Ushio dies and eventually Tomoya dies out of grief unless the player worked to get the game's true end. I am not so sure if I want to see an ending like that. This is, after all, not Tomino's Gundam. Moreover, it would be a huge contradiction to the pace built by the series. With all the emphasis on love, family only to be followed by... kill em all?

Thank goodness the series gave us the true end of the game.

- Tak

[Proto]

Huh? I did suggested a middle point that would kind of reconcile both fronts. After the point where Tomoya cried out for Nagisa and accepted his past with all the good and bad things involved, we could have a world where there was no quantum mechanics involved. Instead, the miracle saved Ushio from her fate, and gave her enough lifeforce not to depend anymore on the city and be free from its fluctuations. With this Tomoya would also be able to fully accept Nagisa's death and walk forward with Ushio as a single father. You have a magical miracle, yet it stays on the a little more real side of things. Would it have been better? Who knows, probably this would need a few adjustments in the overall series to make it fit. Would I have liked it better? Probably yes, not that I don't like the true ending, however a middle point between the bad and true ending would have been fine by me.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Proto

Huh? I did suggested a middle point that would kind of reconcile both fronts. After the point where Tomoya cried out for Nagisa and accepted his past with all the good and bad things involved, we could have a world where there was no quantum mechanics involved. Instead, the miracle saved Ushio from her fate, and gave her enough lifeforce not to depend anymore on the city and be free from its fluctuations. With this Tomoya would also be able to fully accept Nagisa's death and walk forward with Ushio as a single father. You have a magical miracle, yet it stays on the a little more real side of things. Would it have been better? Who knows, probably this would need a few adjustments in the overall series to make it fit. Would I have liked it better? Probably yes, not that I don't like the true ending, however a middle point between the bad and true ending would have been fine by me.

Although this could probably work out well, I believe they were trying to stay true to the original "true ending" of the game.

[Proto]

I'm talking about the series in general, without regard to whether it's about the game or to the high-fi anime adaptation.

[Justin Kim]

Originally Posted by Frostydrops

Terrible ending. Its switched gears so abruptly in such a ridiculous way. The previous episodes were all sad and all of a sudden everything becomes happy again, and hell even Nagisa revives. I was really gearing up for an ending like "Air". Happy ending ftl.

-_- Flame much? If you didn't like the ending, then why proceed / continue to watch the end fully? Seriously the mediocrity of people these days when it comes to watching anime. Play the game, and maybe you will understand to why the ending had happened.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Proto

Huh? I did suggested a middle point that would kind of reconcile both fronts. After the point where Tomoya cried out for Nagisa and accepted his past with all the good and bad things involved, we could have a world where there was no quantum mechanics involved. Instead, the miracle saved Ushio from her fate, and gave her enough lifeforce not to depend anymore on the city and be free from its fluctuations. With this Tomoya would also be able to fully accept Nagisa's death and walk forward with Ushio as a single father. You have a magical miracle, yet it stays on the a little more real side of things. Would it have been better? Who knows, probably this would need a few adjustments in the overall series to make it fit. Would I have liked it better? Probably yes, not that I don't like the true ending, however a middle point between the bad and true ending would have been fine by me.

If that is the case, then it'd lead to the question from the Clannad characters wondering why the miracle did not turn back time and save Nagisa as well. After all, it is still deus ex machina, no matter which way you look it. Never mind that the audience would cry foul for that same exact reason. Thus in this particular situation, you either do it all the way, or don't do one at all. Yet, in order for the latter to happen, many more liberties must be taken with the series, but its not something I like to see.

- Tak

[Frostydrops]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Apparently you didn't read my post in it's entirety since you've missed what I said. The problem is that the anime did a very good job at explaining itself but you seem to have missed it, now I don't know who can be at fault there but at least I know it's not the anime..

The problem is that it didnt.

Read the previous posts, there are quite a number who didnt understand it. You even said yourself that you needed to do research to comprehend it. And just so you know, i am not talking about the supernatural aspects of the anime that didnt reveal itself. So if you managed to comprehend everything that happened in episode 22 (That Tomoya was collecting light orbs gained by spreading happiness in order to reach a better future) solely due to these events:

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

For the area that I put in bold, I hope you know that during the series there was a lot of scenes where they exposed to us the "Illusionary girl" and the robot that was with her most of the time, so it's not fair to say that none of it happened when it's been going on throughout the series. At first, none of those scenes made a lot of sense (at least to me) since it felt kind of awkward, but little by little we got to see that the anime was being portrayed realistically as well as "mystically" for lack of a better word. We were introduced to the whole mystical aspect of the series when we learned what Fuko really was, which I'm sure you can interpret on your own. Simply put, Fuko was a manifestation of her own desires for her sister to be happy even when she can't physically be with her. Those episodes in the first season kind of introduced us to those "mystical" aspects of the anime and in the final episode of After Story, it explained what the "Illusionary World" actually was. If you were paying attention to Kotomi's arc during the first season, that was another indication of what we were to expect. I think they did a wonderful job an conveying these messages and they certainly didn't leave us oblivious to this aspect of the plot.

..then i have to say you have l337 deduction skills. (If you didnt play the game of course)

Originally Posted by Justin Kim

-_- Flame much? If you didn't like the ending, then why proceed / continue to watch the end fully?

To get closure maybe? I like closure in my anime, even if its bad.

Originally Posted by Justin Kim

Seriously the mediocrity of people these days when it comes to watching anime. Play the game, and maybe you will understand to why the ending had happened

I didnt know you needed skill to watch anime 0_o
And i didnt play the game because my japanese isnt good enough.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Frostydrops

I didnt know you needed skill to watch anime 0_o

It is not a matter of skill, but a matter of mindset and how well read a viewer is. Just like how someone who knows the black and death metal scene can appreciate how Detroit Metal City make fun of the cliche of the genre better than someone who never knew them. Or how a history nerd can appreciate all subtleties of Legend of Galatic Heroes by drawing parallels of the development of the plot with actual history.

[Frostydrops]

Originally Posted by Sheba

It is not a matter of skill, but a matter of mindset and how well read a viewer is. Just like how someone who knows the black and death metal scene can appreciate how Detroit Metal City make fun of the cliche of the genre better than someone who never knew them. Or how a history nerd can appreciate all subtleties of Legend of Galatic Heroes by drawing parallels of the development of the plot with actual history.

Then i guess this further enhances my point that this anime isnt self-explanotary at all.

[Ithekro]

Maybe it just takes a certain mindset to get it. That doesn't make it good or bad...just that some people will get it and some people won't.

All the pieces are there, it just depends on if one can or is even willing to see them for what they are. Not everyone can do that, nor is everyone willing to do that.

Others may simply reject the idea because it goes against their own logic patterns. Spme people can't suspend their belief in things, or won't after a certain point. It is valid because not everything is realistic.

Others simply missed the points they would need, either because it didn't seem important, it was a dull explaination, or it didn't make enough sense to them so they blanked it out. That fault could be either the viewer or the writers fault, depending on the scene.

Lastly, it just might be the length of the material covered. Some of those major plot points were covered relatively early in the series compared to the resolution. It might have just been too long a period of time for people to remember. It has been a year since the First Season ended, and well over a year now since the Fuuko arc ended. It isn't unreasonable for someone to forget things.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Frostydrops

Then i guess this further enhances my point that this anime isnt self-explanotary at all.

Air have choosen to devote a full arc to the background behind Misuzu's curse. In the case of Clannad, KyoAni have choosen to drop hints here and there about the Illusionary World. It may have worked when you marathon the both series, but not really when you have to wait a week between each episode and like six months between the two seasons.

[Forever]

Whoa so many pages. I stopped at destiny4everlove post. (I like reading her posts on clannad which is the reason i bother reading till page 34)

Anyway, it is nice to see a good ending, it still give WTF feeling somewhere. Bam, miracle happen and reset everything. I wanted the miracle to be something more epic and less cheesy.

(Or rather, I wanted Ushio to stay alive originally and have kyou as her mother. That would be my ideal realistic happy ending.)

Still could not figure out the symbolism on my own in the end. Grr. Probably my take is that both tomoya (of past world) and ushio is dead and went to imaginery world. Then ushio in the imaginery world forced him out of the imaginery world into another parallel world.

In another parallel world, tomoya was walking past nagisa. For a moment, the consciousness of tomoya of the past world merged the parallel world tomoya. Nagisa consciousness was merged as well. The lights wanted to give him a miracle, one of either with nagisa or one without nagisa. Tomoya made his choice. Once he did, the lights permanently merged his consciousness to the parallel world at the time when ushio is born and past world was overwritten. Ushio consiousness of the imaginery world also merged with the parallel world, since the past world is overwritten, there was no need for her to exist in the imaginery world.

Mei is HOT! She needs to go model for playboy!

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Tak

Inevitably, there are some who lambasted the ending, but beyond accusing it for being deus ex machina and/or too sudden, too abrupt, I have yet to read a single post suggesting what could have been an alternative.

I am also taken slightly aback by people who expressed their surprise when presented with this ending. It is not as if the series held back when inserting elements of the supernatural. People should have expected this ending anyway.

Personally, I think there is little that could be considered an alternative. The fact is, everyone dies. Nagisa dies, Ushio dies and eventually Tomoya dies out of grief unless the player worked to get the game's true end. I am not so sure if I want to see an ending like that. This is, after all, not Tomino's Gundam. Moreover, it would be a huge contradiction to the pace built by the series. With all the emphasis on love, family only to be followed by... kill em all?

Thank goodness the series gave us the true end of the game.

- Tak

Well I've already expressed my idea for an alternative, but here it is again. Lose the part with Ushio dying and everything afterward and cut the story off at the point where Tomoya finds that he truly doesn't regret having met and fallen in love with Nagisa, that life goes on and that there's always more chances for happiness after great loss and end it on that note.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Well I've already expressed my idea for an alternative, but here it is again. Lose the part with Ushio dying and everything afterward and cut the story off at the point where Tomoya finds that he truly doesn't regret having met and fallen in love with Nagisa, that life goes on and that there's always more chances for happiness after great loss and end it on that note.

If that is the ending the producers wish to portray, then they should end the series with Tomoya and Ushio returning from their first trip, and end it right there. Then again, you already have it with the movie.

However, keeping true with the source material, the producers decided to grill the audience. Sitting through Clannad from Nagisa's death was akin to being skewered and roasted slowly over a campfire. The producers did not hold any punches exacting tear and emotions out of every single episode that followed. Now, after the producers dragged characters and audiences through mud & snow, it became difficult for me and many others to accept anything other than a happy ending. After all, if deus ex machina can save Ushio, why the hell can't it save Nagisa too? It wouldn't make sense at that point.

Then here is the issue with Tomoya. I was never convinced that he was happy just being reunited with Ushio, but rather, he simply accepted the responsibility that Ushio is his daughter and he must now take care of her. Otherwise, Tomoya cries in just about every single episode, and I feel that he had an empty void that could not be filled by anything around him. In addition, when Ushio collapsed, Tomoya pretty much followed suit soon after. He was already dead by the beginning of episode 22, and the little junk-robot was his incarnation in the afterlife.

Moreover, Clannad certainly did not hold itself back when implementing supernatural elements into the story. The myths behind orbs were explained, and slowly, they became part of the plot. With the movie, when it ended in its own way, while taking many liberties, they certainly kept the orbs out of the way.

With all that said, let us not forget that this anime (like most anime) is aimed at a specific demographic. A demographic where many individuals are already familiar with the game and thus know how it works. Sadly, that demographic is simply not us.

Moreover, we are also talking about a culture whose acceptance of the supernatural (or an alternative reality) far exceed our own. Needless to say, the reaction of the Japanese fandom is very different from ours.

- Tak

[mk2000]

Timeline 1 (never shown)
Nagisa and Tomoya get together but Tomoya doesn't help out anyone and Nagisa dies, Ushio dies later. Tomoya is transported back in time to the "Hill";

Timeline 2 (start time "Hill")
Nagisa and Tomoya get together and he helps out people but Nagisa dies because he doesn't have enough orbs (but gets more later on). Fuko meets Ushio via Tomoya. Ushio later dies. Tomoya dies as well but is transported back in time to when Nagisa is in labor (in Timeline 2, both Nagisa and Tomoya seem to have memories of or are connect to a parallel world where Ushio exists in some alternate form)

Timeline 3 (start time "Nagisa in labor")
Tomoya has enough orbs and is able to prevent Nagisa from dying. Ushio lives a healthy life. Fuko meets Ushio in the forest. Tomoya, Fuko, Ushio and Nagisa have a picnic in the forest.


Any thoughts on the above? I know this differs pretty good from the Visual Novel but it seems to be the only timeline that made sense for the anime presentation.

[dgreater1]

Originally Posted by mk2000

Timeline 1 (never shown)
Nagisa and Tomoya get together but Tomoya doesn't help out anyone and Nagisa dies, Ushio dies later. Tomoya is transported back in time to the "Hill";

Timeline 2 (start time "Hill")
Nagisa and Tomoya get together and he helps out people but Nagisa dies because he doesn't have enough orbs (but gets more later on). Fuko meets Ushio via Tomoya. Ushio later dies. Tomoya dies as well but is transported back in time to when Nagisa is in labor (in Timeline 2, both Nagisa and Tomoya seem to have memories of or are connect to a parallel world where Ushio exists in some alternate form)

Timeline 3 (start time "Nagisa in labor")
Tomoya has enough orbs and is able to prevent Nagisa from dying. Ushio lives a healthy life. Fuko meets Ushio in the forest. Tomoya, Fuko, Ushio and Nagisa have a picnic in the forest.


Any thoughts on the above? I know this differs pretty good from the Visual Novel but it seems to be the only timeline that made sense for the anime presentation.

I'm not sure whether to post this in this thread or at the Discussion and Interpretation thread but here goes...

From Game:

Timeline0: Tomoya
Timeline0a: Tomoya (Good End ==> Baseball star)
Timeline0b: Tomoya (Bad End)
Timeline0c: Make your own timeline here, pair him with other girls not in CLANNAD's main (KEY) cast or not in CLANNAD at all if you want.

Timeline1: Fuuko
Timeline1a: Fuuko (True End = Girlfriend)
Timeline1b: Fuuko (Good End = Friend only, A and B are both true)
Timeline1c: Fuuko (Bad End)
Timeline1d: Make your own timeline here

Timeline2: Tomoyo
Timeline2a: Tomoyo (Good End ==> Tomoyo After)
Timeline2b: Tomoyo (Bad End)
Timeline2c: Make your own timeline here

Timeline3: Kyou
Timeline3a: Kyou (Good End ==> Ryou's End)
Timeline3b: Kyou (True End ==> Kyou's End because this is supposed to be Kyou's route, not Ryou)
Timeline3c: Kyou (Bad End ==> You're a two timer who couldn't decide properly)
Timeline3d: Make your own timeline here

Timeline4: Kotomi
Timeline4a: Kotomi (Good End)
Timeline4b: Kotomi (Bad End)
Timeline4c: Make your own timeline here

Timeline5: Yukine
Timeline5a: Yukine (Good End)
Timeline5b: Yukine (Bad End)
Timeline5d: Make your own timeline here

Timeline6: Furukawa
Timeline6a: Furukawa (Good End ==> CLANNAD After Story)
Timeline6b: Furukawa (Bad End)
Timeline6c: Make your own timeline here (the Anime version lands in this category. Why did I put it in this category? Because the Anime is supposed to be NagisaxTomoya. If it's KotomixTomoya then I'll put it in #4.)

The timeline in the anime version is an all new timeline created by the joint project of KyoAni and KEY. It intertwines every timeline in game to make a single linear timeline.

Timeline7: If you didn't end up with 1 - 6 then choose between these (some of these might or might not be connected with 1 - 6)
Timeline7a: Sanae (connected with CLANNAD AfterStory)
Timeline7b: Akio (connected with CLANNAD AfterStory)
Timeline7c: Koumura (stand alone)
Timeline7d: Sunohara Mei & Youhei (stand alone)
Timeline7e: Misae (stand alone)
Timeline7f: Kappei (stand alone)
Timeline7g: Make your own timeline here

Unknown Timeline: This is the Illusionary World, there are no other worlds that resemble this one. There are no branches in this world but it does connect to every alternative worlds in CLANNAD.

"Make your own timeline here" means the girl didn't end up with Tomoya because he's already taken by someone or she did end up with him but a different story happened.

Anyway, if you consider Tomoya to be collecting those orbs of light, then, he definitely collected orbs not just in the Anime's linear timeline but in the game's differennt timeline where he ended up with only one girl and didn't become friends with everyone but at the same time, he did become an aqcuaintance with them. So it means, he collected not just 14 but lots and lots of orbs (to the point that we can't probably count) that we, the viewers don't know of.

Also, like I've said in one of my post, every stories are true, even fanfics are considered true (Bad Fanfics and Good Fanfics). "You" are the one who's going to decide the outcome, "you" are the one choosing the selection. If you think Episode 21 should be the last one, then "Stop exploring beyond that" but, if you think the outcome of the story is heartbreaking, then it's for you to decide whether you want to see (or create) the alternate world that you desire that is somehow connected to other alternative worlds by thoughts (something like de ja vu, jamais vu, presque vu if you know what I mean. I also remember inserting "Higurashi" in one of my post years ago.)

In game, the selection (the part where Nagisa was in labor...)

Call out to her
Don't call out to her

wasn't there for the first time but actually, it was always there. KEY just wanted us to run/experience first the BAD END path. You can call them bastards for making us experience those heartbreaking stories first but you can't deny the fact that they managed to pull your emotions the way they want to (only applies to some people though).

I hope I'm making sense with these timelines though...

[angelhalo]

Originally Posted by mk2000

Timeline 1 (never shown)
Nagisa and Tomoya get together but Tomoya doesn't help out anyone and Nagisa dies, Ushio dies later. Tomoya is transported back in time to the "Hill";

Timeline 2 (start time "Hill")
Nagisa and Tomoya get together and he helps out people but Nagisa dies because he doesn't have enough orbs (but gets more later on). Fuko meets Ushio via Tomoya. Ushio later dies. Tomoya dies as well but is transported back in time to when Nagisa is in labor (in Timeline 2, both Nagisa and Tomoya seem to have memories of or are connect to a parallel world where Ushio exists in some alternate form)

Timeline 3 (start time "Nagisa in labor")
Tomoya has enough orbs and is able to prevent Nagisa from dying. Ushio lives a healthy life. Fuko meets Ushio in the forest. Tomoya, Fuko, Ushio and Nagisa have a picnic in the forest.


Any thoughts on the above? I know this differs pretty good from the Visual Novel but it seems to be the only timeline that made sense for the anime presentation.

I've a question.

I've just watched ep 22 and was confused during the part after the robot got destroyed in the illusionary world and Tomoya got back to his senses.

He immediately shouted "Nagisa" and hugged her. It seems like they both had already met each other for a long time. But isn't that scene suppose to be the first time they met?

Then the next scene is the scene where Ushio is born... (That is in your timeline 2) interpretation. The labor part...

[Ithekro]

Episode 16...Nagisa is dying. Tomoya "goes back to the Hill where they met". He doesn't call out to her. She dies.

Episode 22...Robot is destroyed. Tomoya "goes back to the Hill where he met Nagisa" He calls out to her. He arrives at the moment after the Episode 16 scene where he didn't call out to her...Nagisa lives.

While it might not have been this way in the game, the anime suggests to me that the scene at the bottom of the hill in 16 and 22 are Tomoya and Nagisa's souls as she is passing on. In one version he lets her go, thinking it would have been best if they hadn't met. Feeling it is fine for her to leave (he didn't try to stop her) her soul leaves the mortal plain and she dies. In 22, after going through everything, Tomoya call out to her soul. Happy that he didn't regret their love, Nagisa's soul doesn't pass on. She lives.

That might not be the actual meaning, but that is the best I can make out of it with the given anime presentation. Nagisa's talk about returning to the place where miracles happen is them returning to their bodies, so to speak.

This makes sense since if that was the "first meeting" at the bottom of the hill, Nagisa shouldn't know his name yet, and would be very confused being hugged like that. Thus in this version, it cannot be a repeat of the "first meeting" but a representation of something else...their souls is the best thing I can think of...or perhaps their personal orbs of happiness.