2012-05-08, 22:38 | Link #2342 | ||
Megane girl fan
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
Age: 55
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Great discussion so far, I'm really enjoying the analyses you guys are posting.
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I may be wrong, but I believe I read somewhere that the Japanese invented modern amphibious assaults. However, that innovation ended with landing barges. The U.S. took that idea and ran with it, perfecting the amphibious assault and using it against the Japanese with success time and time again. Endless "Mechanized" Soul
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2012-05-08, 22:44 | Link #2343 | |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
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2012-05-08, 23:21 | Link #2344 | |
Megane girl fan
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
Age: 55
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Endless "some other time" Soul
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2012-05-09, 05:33 | Link #2345 |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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The US were much more mechanized then any other army in the war, though I don't think it was cultural. It was much to do with their industrial capacity. IE if the other countries in the war could have put out as many motorized vehicles as the US, they would have, but what industrial capacity they had was going towards more objectively important weapons (planes, tanks, artillery).
For instance, almost all the cars used by the soviets were manufactured in the US. It helps that the US had the largest car industry going into the war. The only other country that could match them in this respect was Germany, and most of their car industry was diverted into tank production. Motorized brigades would have made up a minority of every other army, the average soldier had to make do with marching, or if they were lucky, rail. |
2012-05-11, 01:04 | Link #2346 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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I recall reading in some European histories of the war that the most astonishing thing to the Europeans about the American forces was that *everyone* rode *everywhere* and that they'd leave perfectly functioning vehicles just scattered about if they became superfluous.
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2012-05-11, 01:36 | Link #2347 | |
I don't give a damn, dude
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Despair
Age: 37
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2012-05-11, 03:48 | Link #2348 |
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
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We don't wish to discuss tanks.
Unlike the American Sherman tanks, and the amazing German Tiger tanks, we had Chiha tanks seemingly made out of cardboard boxes, rusty fish buckets, and empty tuna cans. I'm pretty sure my Toyota Corolla is more bulletproof.
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2012-05-11, 11:42 | Link #2349 | |
The GAP Man
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2012-05-11, 11:51 | Link #2350 | |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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When are they developing Gundarium?
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2012-05-12, 08:35 | Link #2351 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Well, here is a question that has been bothering me for quite some time, in relation to japanese culture and how it expresses in anime - and yes, I know, animes are not real life
One of, if not THE most prevalent male protagonist archetype, is the "nice guy to the extreme", that is someone who is nice to a fault, and happily let himself be insulted, abused and exploited by some domineering/rude/selfish girl/friend/whatever, usually female. And this kind of guy is simply ubiquitous, even in male-oriented market. On the other hand, I think I've heard that Japan is still very male-dominated, and that the role-model is more about being a "strong man". I have a hard time understanding how social norms like the latter could create something like the former outside of shojo manga, especially considering the famous normative power of the society. I suppose there is something I'm missing in japanese culture, and it's a point I'm rather curious about. So, could an insider explain it all ? ^^ |
2012-05-12, 09:46 | Link #2352 |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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Herbivorous males.
Also, consider the demographic most anime is aimed at: Teen-Young adult nerdy males. I don't know about you, but as a teen I was terrible with women(in fact I'm still terrible...), and so a lot of clichés in Anime had a certain amount of resonance. Also, seeing guys fail at romance like that has a certain element of Schadenfreude. So the typical romantic/harem plot, whereby the loser male gets all these girls holds a lot of attraction to otaku, who may be losers themselves. It tells them "You can get a girlfriend too!". It's as much a case of a demographic being catered to, that in the west does not get catered to. Closest thing might be Judd Apatow movies. Also, in a society where males are dominant, there's a certain comedy in males being subservient. Consider American Family Sitcoms as well. Going back to the 30s the father is usually somewhat of a doofus, with the wife is smart. This is drawing comedy by basically flipping traditional gender norms. For instance guy abuses a girl -> drama. Girl abuses a guy -> comedy. |
2012-05-12, 10:02 | Link #2353 | |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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Naturally though, it still proves one thing : human beings, male or female, are insecure creatures.
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2012-05-12, 10:16 | Link #2354 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
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I don't really buy the target demographic : making so the audience relate to the protagonist is certainly a good thing for marketing, so making him a somehow shy guy bad with women is understandable, but making him a buttmonkey that gets abused and without a spine ? If it's about making people relate, it's rather insulting. You would think that you would like the hero you relate to, to be at least able to bite back and not just be a passive loser - showing you that you can get a girl AND you can be an actual person and not just a doormat for people to clean their feet on.
As well as the humorous inversion of gender role, I can get it (we do it rather commonly in the West too), but it's just so UBIQUITOUS that I think there is something else here. I mean, I have a hard time remembering even ONE protagonist that didn't let himself to be abused by some maniacal female friend, so it's not even a trend, it's downright systematic. The link about herbivorous male is rather interesting, though, especially as it seems it started roughly at the same time as the victim-protagonist cliché. Maybe that is an actual deep shift in the whole japanese society. One more reason to wait with interest for a Japanese member's point of view on the subject ! |
2012-05-12, 12:12 | Link #2355 | |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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Natsume Yuujinchou Hotarubi no Mori e AnoHana Usagi Drop Bakuman Sakamichi No Appolon Tiger and Bunny Danshi Koukosei no Nichijou Ao no Exorcist Gundam Unicorn Gundam Age Mawaru Penguindrum. The "complete loser" is really only common in Harems. That said, there are plenty of "weak males" outside of the "complete loser". Generally I'd split it up as follows: 1. Complete losers: These are indeed the complete losers to whom you refer. No redeeming qualities. Might occasionally have a bout of courage. No particular reason for being losers either. 2. Legitimate losers: These are guys who are dysfunctional, but are legitimately so, often feature in more dramatic stuff, think Welcome to the NHK or The Tatami Galaxy. They may end out overcoming their problems. 3. Initially losers: A lot of Shonen, the guy starts off weak, but gains courage, guts and strength as the story continues. Think Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, or most any sports or Shonen show. Only number 1 gets egregiously abused by the women around him. 1 is more of a comedy agent, it's not funny to see an amazing guy get with loads of women, but it is to see a loser. Again, this character is also super extreme version of many Otaku, he has the hangups many otaku have, but he gets into "hilarious" situations, allowing the viewer to laugh at himself. There's also Schadenfreude going on here. It's a bit like laughing at Mr. Magoo, or Mr. Bean etc. This character never changes as the story continues. He might grow enough of a pair to confess to the girl at the end. Might. They're endemic to Comedies and Harem shows. Number 2 is intended to explore real life issues otaku viewers might have, this character type is rarely seen being outright abused by anyone, but is still a loser, and misanthropic. This is more about Drama, I rarely see anyone complain about these guys. Number 3 has the benefit of being both empathetic to the viewer, presenting a good fantasy, and being generally superior to the alternative (utterly amazing hero). In contrast to an utterly amazing hero, it's impossible for the viewer to think "This guy is just like me" and shows that with effort and courage, he can be just like that character. It's also dramatically satisfying to see someone overcome their fears. This wouldn't be possible with a character that's all round amazing. It features a lot more possibilities for introspection and characterisation compared to a lead who kicks ass and chews bubblegum. While the ass-kicking badass is cool, he makes for a poor lead, because there's no real way for him to improve, he's already an ass-kicking badass. Seeing a guy start as an ass-kicking badass and end as an ass-kicking badass isn't satisfying. Seeing someone go from zero to hero is. That's why the protagonist of Star Wars is Luke Skywalker, even if we all prefer Han Solo. And that's why the star of every sports movie ever is some loser team at the bottom of the league, not the team at the top of their game that initially beats them at the start, but that loses against them again in the heroic finale. In terms of male characterisation, I think Anime actually does a lot better then most other genres of young adult fiction (particularly their closest counterpart, american comics). |
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2012-05-12, 13:51 | Link #2356 |
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
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Nerds sympathises with nerds.
Quite simple. American nerds fantasies they were buffed, badass, and macho. = superhero idolizing syndrome Japanese nerds wish they were accepted the way they are = spineless buttmonkey protagonist syndrome It wasn't always this way, back in the 80s the mindset of a Japanese nerd was a lot closer to that of the American ones. (look at Space Cobra, Lupin IIIrd, Mazinger Z, Hokuto no Ken, Kinnikuman, City Hunter, to name a few)
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2012-05-12, 13:56 | Link #2358 |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
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Haha, your timing is impeccable, Saint, I was just editing that in.
Needless to say, I prefer the old days protags. Same even goes for eroge. The early 90s eroge protagonists were badass, strong, manly, and openly playboy. Now they're just as spineless and whiney as their anime counterparts.
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2012-05-12, 14:16 | Link #2359 | |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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My heroes are still the Expendables-types though. And people call me old-fashioned. And the fujoshis are going to have a field day with that picture about what he and his buddy will do while under camoflage in their spider-holes......
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2012-05-12, 14:20 | Link #2360 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
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Nah, I have too much respect for the military to think of such things. My fiancé is a former ROKMC, and he's a compact hunk, especially compared to the stupid machos of the past. Finely toned muscles everywhere.
Also, rare is the eroge protagonist who are worth anything. |
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culture, discussion, japan, japanese culture |
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